**OFFICIAL THREAD** Yoda vs. Darth Sidious v3.0

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by rhonderoo, Nov 8, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I think one thing that people seem to miss is that Sidious created the lightning, that despite being absorbed by Yoda, ended the duel. From that explosion, Yoda came off worse.

    People say - "It was luck that saved Sidious and had Yoda fall". I think that couldn't be further from the truth. Luck, in essence, doesnt really exist. For me its about cause and effect. Sidious created the lightning, Yoda fell off the pod.

    I think the reasons for battle were obvious as well. Sidious was forced to do battle (after he thought he could kill Yoda easily) but all he had to do was survive by 'dealing with Yoda'.

    Yoda had to win. He didn't. He failed.

    That's why I think its completely fair to say that Sidious won and Yoda lost. Its what happened![face_peace]
  2. darthvaderv Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    The duel was a draw. A stalemate. That much is obvious. Sidious won through CIRCUMSTANCE only. I've posted several times stating this as it's overwhelminly obvious.

    However Yoda failed to kill Sidious so he lost. The argument really is did Sidious beat Yoda in their duel??? NO! when did he? Sidious got lucky from being deep inside the pod. How anyone can say otherwise baffles me. Most people really want to know could Sidious beat Yoda without Sidious having the advantage of the high ground or if he was on the edge of the pod like Yoda?? Thats down to personal opinion. I think Yoda would just edge it if there were no advantages for Sids, or if there was a re-match. However anything could happen.

    In short. Just my opinion trying to not show any basis.

    For Sidious Fans:

    1) Yes he won
    2) He won because of being deep inside the pod and having the high ground
    3) He is as powerful as Yoda, they are equals along with Mace possibly. Sidious does NOT exceed Yoda's power.
    4) Sidious did not kill Yoda either.


    For Yoda Fans:

    1) Yoda lost, because he failed his mission.
    2) Yoda is not more powerful then Sidious they are equals.
    3) If Sidious was on the edge of the pod where would he be??? On the senate floor. Sidious= Lucky ???[face_thinking]
    4) Yoda won the saber locks, if that is a point for validation of being the better saberist.

    Someone has to obviously win and lose. Anyone who thinks there is a clear winner in connection with the duel only, I disagree with. Well apart from Yoda winning the saber locks.
  3. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But Sidious created the lightning which brought about both characters being thrown from the pods. Yoda just couldnt contain the force of Sidious' lightning like he had done with Dooku's.

    Therefore it isn't just circumstance IMO. Its Sidous bringing about Yoda's fall from the pod. Cause and effect. Action and reaction. Yoda didn't just magical fall from the pod. It was brought about by Sidious.

    Yoda failed in his task. Sidious succeeded in his. Yoda confirms this by saying "failed I have".
  4. darthvaderv Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    Is that really a valid argument your supporting about Sidious creating lightning???

    First of all YES I agree Sidious won. CIRCUMSTANCE won it for him.

    Let me ask you a question. Role reversal. Where would Sidious be if the lightning exploded if he swapped places with Yoda and if he was on the edge of it and Yoda was inside the pod?? Who would be on the senate floor?
  5. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Im never too keen on said 'what if'questions but i'll give it a go:

    If Sidious was in Yoda's position then he may have feel but would have had a better chance of hanging on. And if he fell, so what? He was The Emperor. He wouldnt be dead. He would either fight Yoda again or leave him to the clones. Would Sidious have stayed in that position? Perhaps he, once yoda started to force him back would have seen the risk of what would happen and shift over?

    But then you have to say, if they turned out in different positions then everything else would be different - hence my dislike for said questions.

    But the fact is, Sidious did create the lightning and it brought about Yoda's fall.
  6. darthvaderv Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    Sidious wouldn't fight Yoda again if he fell he has moments of being a coward. Sure he could call on troopers etc. I agree. The point I am trying to make is a simple one. Sidious did not dominate or outwardly win that duel in either a convincing or transparently "he is the best" victory. Yoda's comment ("Failed I have.") is to elimate Sidious which he didn't. it doesn't mean Sidious won that duel on even terms or with the same cirsumstances.

    Sidious vs Yoda proved one thing to me. Lucas wanted them poised as displaying the same power. It's all set up by:

    The force lightning struggle. What's the scene for?:

    A) To show how powerful Sids is.

    B) To show Yoda's expression shift from struggling to determination.

    C) To show prune head struggling and moaning like a baby with pain registered on his face. As Yoda contains and pushes the lightning back at him.

    D) To show Yoda at a deliberately DISADVANTAGED pod position in comparison with Sidious

    E) To show that it was just luck. Sidious managed to just hold on where as yoda's nail slipped on the smooth surface of the below pod.

    Lucas showed no true dominate victory. He had them pretty much as equals and if the lightning scene was anything to go by what expression did they leave the last of the battle with??
    Sidious - Moaning beaten look
    Yoda - Determination
    I think that is a valid argument.
  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Sure. I just don't see it as luck.

    Sidious assumed his safe position. Sidious has bigger arms and hands to grip with. Sidious created the lightning whcih brought about the end of the battle.

    Luck to me would involve something external that has no bias towards either bringing victory to eith of the combatants.

    For me, it was a simple case of cause and effect. Yoda failed. Sidious succeeded.

    But in the end, we agree I think - Sidious won.

    You say by luck. I say by his own cause.[face_peace]
  8. darthvaderv Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    Yes MS we agree on the final outcome but not the circumstances or luck involved. Either way, been a pleasure debating ;)
  9. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    ;) Indeed.

    Would you do me a favour though? Could you post me your defintions of what 'luck' and 'circumstance' are in this specific case? This is a good tool to use - http://dictionary.reference.com/

    I'm not one to get too involved with semantics, but I think with this debate it could help in ironing out a few details.

    Thanks.[face_peace]
  10. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    Vaderv, great post (top of the page). While I don't necessarily agree with all of it, you stated some great stuff. If you take a look at my posts, I've only been saying that yoda did indeed lose. I didn't get into specifics. Just that anything other than saying yoda lost, simply isn't true. LordV, it's clear as day, cut and dry, yoda lost. I'll leave the rest of the debate alone for the time being. :)
  11. darthvaderv Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    I think we both understand what the definition of what Luck and Circumstance are. My view does not alter because of a dictionary. However in a duel they are hard to outline exactly. This has been covered in some respects in the Was Obi-Wan lucky thread.

    The same outline of the dictionary's terms has been used by another poster, either on this thread or the Sidious vs Mace thread. I see no need to duplicate the obvious. However that is no admission on my part.

    Sidious took the high ground Luck of circumstance?? - Probably cicumstance

    Yoda was on the ledge of the pod Sidious was very deep inside the pod - circumstance

    Sidious hanged onto the railing, Yoda did not - Luck

    That's my opinion on events. Either way this was not an even duel. Sidious had the advantage. Did he make or cause himself to have the advantage??? Who knows. I'm simply stating he was the victor through circumstance and he was lucky to hold onto the rail. Yoda was unlucky his nail slipped. Is that not a fair enough summary, or do we debate further that Sidious comfortably beat Yoda ;) ?

  12. darthvaderv Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    I agree with you. Yoda did lose. That's not the debate. I am saying Sidious won the duel because of his circumstances ;) .
  13. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    I, more or less agree with you. Slight details, very slight, notwithstanding. :)
  14. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Thats fine.[face_peace] I was just wandering thats all. I think its at times important to remind ourselves of what these definitions are to help the debate move along.

    For example, in this situation I would define luck as a bird flying into the senate arena, dropping his load on Yoda's head thus putting the Jedi Master off and giving Sidious the chance to strike. Thats what I see as luck - an external force which has no bias, intefering in a way that results in a success for one of the combatants. Long winded I know! I just don't see how Yoda being beaten through the skill and powers of Sidious can be seen as Luck.

    Well, he got there himself. He put himself in that position.

    Again, I would say that Sidious put himself in that position. He put himself in the safer part of the pod. He forced Yoda to be in the position he ended up in.

    Or Sidious just had a better grip.

    Im always happy to debate! I'd say I agree with you of course that Sidious won, but I say he did it through his skill and power rather than luck and circumstance.
  15. darthvaderv Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    Okay MS well we have both put are arguments for and against and conclude that in short we agree that Sidious won.

    You think he beat Yoda with skill, I think they are equals, there was nothing in it and that Sidious got the better circumstances to win. I also believe the lightning struggle was set up clearly to express Yoda gaining the upper hand as they leave the battle with Sidious moaning in pain and Yoda's determined face. I strongly believe if Sidious was on the edge of the pod he would of lost, to me that's circumstance.

    I don't want to go round in circles and start boring others so either way I respect your opinion and I shall leave the debate with yourself as we have both exhausted our views in which we believe we are individually right ;) :)
  16. cousinbasil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Darth_Vindaloo posted

    It never struck me as insane, more as though Sidious was simply revelling in finally being able to openly tell the universe around him how he felt about it; the "I've been looking forward to this for long time, my little green friend" line pretty much tells you how he feels not just about Yoda, but about the whole game he's been playing at that point. Now he gets his payday, and his payback. He's spent decades with most of the time occupied - of necessity - by wearing the public persona of Mr. Nice Senator From Naboo...think how much he must have hated that at times, forced to be nice to the people he loathes...now the gloves are off and he can let it all out. Like Maul's "At last..." thing but writ much, much larger. The cackling laughter in the Rotunda is almost off the edge, but nobody genuinely insane could have spent as long as Sidious did successfully maintaining a facade of kindly-old-man. He's a master of self-control, but that doesn't stop him being able to savour the moment when that control, that facade, is no longer necessary.

    Precisely. Look at his face - he's loving it. Same as when Mace and the others come for him in his chambers; he makes the first move, and while fighting Mace - whatever your thoughts on the fight itself - he's grinning from ear to ear most of the time, having the time of his life. At last he gets to rip apart some of the Jedi he's hated and despised for so long. It's like Christmas for him; he even found somewhere that delivers :D.
    [/quote]




    Meant to comment sooner but working overtime. Wasted. Anyway good post. Couldn't have said it better.Agree completely.Ian McDiarmid has said numerous times that Sidious is like Mr. Hyde and Palpatine was Dr. Jekyll.

    I just think Sidious loses it when Yoda makes that remark to Sidious.'Faith in your apprentice misplaced may be. As is your faith in the Dark Side of the Force." Yoda is basically saying both with his words,the determined look on his face and his fighting stance, that the Dark Side is nothing to his powers and that he will make short work of Sidious.

    Not only does Sidious look like he's not at all scared of Yoda but judging from the eerie silence and look in his eyes as he raises his lightsaber over his head, it's like one of those volcanos from Mustafar must be erupting inside of his head.

    It's reminiscent of the way he looked when Luke Skywalker refused to turn to the Dark Side in ROTJ. The silence as he took in Luke's words and then the look of pure rage on his face. I remember there was a ripple through the audience in the theatre. The people were like'uh oh'] But in ROTS it's much more volatile. Sidious becomes just as determined and hungry for victory as Yoda. Maniacally so.

    Even when the going gets tough for Sidious he presses on.He encounters difficulties worse thsn being force pushed across a room and overcomes them.
    When Yoda succeeds in trapping Sidious in a prolonged lightsaberlock as the two are dueling, Sidious grimaces with the strain but then breaks free as he pulls his lightsaber up. Yoda has this openmouthed look of surprise that Sidious broke free whereas before he looked really determined as he was forcing Sidious' lightsaber downwards.
    Count Dooku ran away. Sidious keeps on keepin' on.

    And then of course Sidious takes Yoda's best shot of having his lightning returned to him via Yoda. Painfully fighting through Yoda's lightning deflecting abilities and blasting Yoda away. Then it's Yoda turn to look surprised and in pain as he slides off the Senate podium. And then he runs away. And Sidious cools off and goes back to being the evil mastermind.
    />
  17. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    The one time Sidious seems to have a problem during the entire fight is as the lighenting battle nears the end where he has an expression on his face that says "oh crap I can't hold this" where at the same time look at Yoda face his is one of power. The close up of Yoda with the lightening shown in his eyes is one of the best.

    Yoda failed in his mission that it was a draw, his mission was "destroy the Sith we must" by his own order, he lost to his own order he gave himself and Obi-Wan.

    "Failed I have"

    The fight was a draw, the mission a failure.
  18. JediForceMaster Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2006
    I will agree with that for the most part. Sidious was freaking out because Yoda was giving him more than he bargained for in the lightning duel. There was another part where it was clear that Yoda had Sidious in deep trouble, and that would be the Lightsaber fight. Sidious could barely contain Yodas legendary lightsaber skills and that was clear from his facial expressions.

    The fight however, was a draw. But had the fight happened in a neutral territory, I believe that could have tipped the scales in Yodas favour. The only way anyone could possibly see Yoda as a failure was in his goal to destroy the Sith.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.