**OFFICIAL THREAD** Yoda vs. Darth Sidious v3.0

damn that brings back memories, thanks commander76, I need to go buy Transformers the movie, like right away.

 

*Sidious voice* "Dew iht"

 

The Force makes you faster, but I don't think it makes you physically stronger. If that was the case, the Emperor would have been able to resist being thrown in the reactor shaft by the much bigger Vader, since the Emperor is stronger in the Force.

We know the force can make one jump extremely high, run extremely fast, so those are all effects of the force on the body. I don't see why the force can't be use to apply more pressure during a saber lock.

Besides, we don't know how precisely the force can make one run so fast and jump so high. So it's quite possible the force is used to dramatically increase one's strenght (in the legs for example for a force jump).


As for Sidious, well the way he was lifted by Vader simply didn't allow him to resist, no matter how strong he was.

Finally, as you said yourself, it's certainly not Yoda' own strenght that allowed him to win those saber locks, so the force HAD to be involved in the process because He did won them

regards

 

no...way....you....can...."win a saber lock"....unless....you....injure...your...oponent.....

i know you already explained your reasons to think like this but im still not convinced at all.

 

i'm still wondering if anyone has seen the saber on the ground when yoda falls to the senate floor. if so who's is it? it's at the bottom right of the screen.

 

What I mean by winning a saber lock is being the one who pushes harder, so you can replace the word "win" by "Yoda was the one who showed more strenght " during the saber locks!

regards

 

I had asked this some where else but I didn't see it answered.

Was the entire Yoda/Sidious battle of them fighting with the sabers completely CG?

 

Unless there is a 3 foot stunt guy running around....yes

 

but what about palpatine ?? was he just ian's double or it was CG ??

 

It looked CG

 

Yeah, I know that Yoda was CGI but how bout Sidious?

 

I agree wholeheartedly with posters like farrellg who say that Darth Sidious won the fight with Yoda. I'm not ashamed to admit that I personally was rooting for Sidious to win. I agree with Farrellg that it's too bad that Sidious didn't beat Yoda more spectacularly and soundly than he did.
I'll hold to what McDiarmid and Lucas originally intended for Sidious. That he's 500 times more powerful than the Jedi. It's as if at the last minute while filming Lucas decided to scale back Sidious' power.He does beat Yoda though by demonstrating that he can take it as well as dish it out.Yoda clearly never gains the upper hand in the lightsabre duel. Sidious effortlessly blasts Yodas lightsabre away [And Yoda was holding tightly onto it in his samurai pose too] Yoda tries to destroy Sidious by turning the full force of his lightning back on him just as Mace Windu did earlier in the film.[And note the look of pain on Yodas face at first at the intensity of Sidious' energy that he's trying to block] In the case of Windu Sidious bounced right back and blasted Windu into oblivion. It's as if the lightning Windu had forced back on Sidious had only supercharged Sidious power all the more. [as well as revealing what he really looked like all along]"Power! Unlimited power!" I don't think Sidious was kidding there.The Dark Side of the Force backed him up.
Yodas turning Sidious power back on him only really succeeded in causing Sidious tremendous uinimaginable power to increase in strength go off the charts and explode blasting thru Yoda's force shield.Yes it seemed to bring Sidious pain but he hangs on I don't think it was a draw.The blast seemed to have sapped Yoda's energy too.It was his best and final shot. Before he'd been leaping about like Spiderman dogging the Senate pods. But at the end he was having trouble hanging on to the podium.All the blast did to Sidious knock him head over heels. But he recovers easily. Hanging onto a senate in comical Harold Lloyd fashion and laughing. A real rough and tumble guy.Takes a licking and keeps on ticking like Dracula.

 

i also after thinking about this A LOT agree that yoda lost this fight. however he was not owned as some say. if they were on a flat surface im almost positive the yoda would have won. and yoda made the best choice of leaving. he had lost his saber, fallen of of the pod (while sids had a pole to hang on too), and clones were coming. so he made the best choice by leaving.

and i believe the face that yoda out when he first started deflecting the lighting was because of the brightness and not because of the power of it.

and the face that sids put when yoda went to throw the lighting back was just priceless

 

Come on. Didn't you realize Sideous' face when Yoda started to push the lightning back at him? Sideous' gasps in astonishment. If that scene showed anything, it was a struggling Yoda being able to counter attack and push the lightning back - a stronger feat than that of Sideous.

 

A fried of mine who's been training fencing for over ten years found all that talk about "winning" or "loosing" saber locks quite amusing; and even to me it is plausible that a swords fight isn't comparable to a bavarian arms strength contest.

 

Now here's a good topic... Although I thought it was a pretty even match between the two of them. There's some that seem to think that Darth Sidious out right won. That was not the case. It was pretty much a stale mate I think. And for some reason I don't think Darth Sidious wanted any part of Yoda dueling with a lightsaber. Which is why he resorted to using the force. Using the lightning and throwing things at Yoda...was his way of keeping Yoda at bay. I will agree though Darth Sidious did have Yoda off balance a lot, but he did not defeat him. When they lucked horns one last time and Sidious let him have it with the lightning - yes Yoda did give alittle face like wow! But he also turned it right back on Sidious, and then he was taken by surprise. Than the climax, they both fall, and no one wins. I mean they both seem to dominate. Yoda with the lightsaber, and Darth Sidious with the force. Yoda pretty much and him struggling with the lightsaber. But then it shifted when Darth Sidious started using the force all out - then Yoda was thrown off guard. But in the end I think it's hard to say Darth Sidious flat out won. Neither one of them won. That's just my thoughts on it anyways.

 

i thought i would never see this thread on page 1 again.

my opinion is that they were both equal in the force,maybe a slight edge to yoda with the lightsaber even though im not sure,but in the end the one who came up on top is the emperor.i mean just like in mace/sidious some people like to argue that palpatine allowed it to happen(wich beyond any doubt he didnt).its the same here..yoda admits failure,the DVD commentary says that the scene when yoda escapes with bail was to show that yoda lost....i dont think it should be too hard to accept that the emperor won the fight.....thats actually what happened.

 

I agree that the EMperor won, because the outcome favoured him. That's whats important in a fight, isn't it?

But if you look at their force duel right before they are both blown backwards, I think Yoda was seriously gaining the upper hand. Yoda was struggling with the lightning at first, but then he concentrates and his face stops to struggle - intensifies - and you see SIdeous' mouth open, gasping, astonished at what's happening... that's how I saw the scene anyways... The way they fell backwards is a good indication that the wind was blowing Sideous' way... had Yoda not fallen, I think he would have won - or there would have come lots and lots of clones in, and the outcome would be the same!

 

A fried of mine who's been training fencing for over ten years found all that talk about "winning" or "loosing" saber locks quite amusing; and even to me it is plausible that a swords fight isn't comparable to a bavarian arms strength contest

Well I don't know anything about fencing, but what I know is that most of time, in a movie, when there's a saber lock, it always seems very important for both fighters to push as hard as they can on their opponent's sword in the opposite direction. Maybe it gives the fighter whose sword is on top a chance to launch a dangerous attack (I'm no expert).

Anyways, it seemed very important for Yoda and Sidious to "win" the pushing contest during their saber locks, so that's why I was argueing that Yoda being the one who pushed harder could be an indication that he was a little more in control.

Also, since it's impossible for Yoda to be as strong as Sidious (I'm talking about natural strenght here), it a proof that one can use the force to become stronger. Or it's quite possible both were using the force to "force push" their own weapon against their opponent's. Which would still be an indication that Yoda was at least as dangerous as Sidious with a lightsaber, if not a little more...since he was the one pushing harder during every saberlock!!!

Remember I know very well that no damage was inflicted during the saber part of the duel, but I'm just trying to determine who's better with a lightsaber.

Regards!

 

If that scene showed anything, it was a struggling Yoda being able to counter attack and push the lightning back - a stronger feat than that of Sideous.

Using lightning is much more impressive than only being able to block it. The Emperor has an offensive weapon that he can harm his opponent with, while the best Yoda could do is try to prevent himself from being harmed. Yoda wouldn't be able to dominate a Jedi with lightning the way the Emperor has.

The Emperor's lightning gave Yoda serious problems on numerous occasions. The first blast knocked him against the wall. According to the youth novel, Yoda lost the high ground when the Emperor hit him with a particularly strong blast of lightning while Yoda still had a lightsaber. Finally, Yoda is disarmed and thrown off the pod with lightning. This is the power that makes the Emperor "better" than Yoda, as Gillard said.

 

im not sure he is better but nothing will ever make me believe that yoda won that fight..i mean c'mon people

 

As you said yourself, "winning" a saber lock will gain you nothing in a fight. A saber lock is a deadend situation and I'd say the real question in whole saber lock issue is how to get out of the lock, without ending up in a disadvantaged position. I think in this thread people are seriously over-analyzing the fight by scrutinizing each and every movement that Gillard choreographed, and what is more, many of them are doing it without any knowledge about fencing. This is like people with no knowledge of car mechanics or electronics or even driving are discussing which one of two cars is the "better" one. And then there is the issue of overinterpreting Sidious' facial expressions which most likely good old IMD threw in there mainly for the sake of the comical element. I think this will lead to nothing; you can't determine who is better in a discipline you know very little or next to nothing about and that's why I usually don't post anything on that part of the discussion. Unless I hear statements on the fights from people who really have a fencing background and know what they are talking about, I prefer to keep from meticulously analyzing fights carried out with a class of weapons I know just a little bit about. It's regrettable that so few people who actually know about fencing ever take part in these discussions. I mean, somehow I admire the diligence and patience you guys are investing in these issues - I just don't see how this can be of help in clarifying things.

 

I think in this thread people are seriously over-analyzing the fight by scrutinizing each and every movement that Gillard choreographed, and what is more, many of them are doing it without any knowledge about fencing. This is like people with no knowledge of car mechanics or electronics or even driving are discussing which one of two cars is the "better" one. And then there is the issue of overinterpreting Sidious' facial expressions which most likely good old IMD threw in there mainly for the sake of the comical element.


Even though Gillard must have used some real fencing techniques to choregraph that fight, when you see Yoda jumping in the air and twirling like a crazy frog on speed, no need to be a fencing expert to realize that it's not something you see very often in a real fencing competition. Yoda is so small compared to Sidious that Gillard had to find a way to make up for Yoda's small size and put up a credible fight. In other words I really don't think that saber duel relates so much on real fencing moves rather than on many spectacular moves which were designed to give us a good show! That's why I don't think it can only be analysed by experts.

Most of us Star Wars fans don't know anything about that sport, and that's why seeing Yoda repulsing Sids' saber 2 or 3 times in a row can give us the impression that Yoda is a little more in control or at least, is as good as Sidious when it comes to use the force during a lightsaber duel.

It's true analysing saber locks can be interpreted as over analysing, but keep in mind I'm not trying to draw solid conclusions on who's the best fighter. But there were 2 or 3 saber locks during the fight, and everytime, Yoda proved to be the strongest. I don't care if it's not relevant since no one was hurt, but it certainly gave me the impression that Yoda was a little more in control and I think that's what Lucas wanted to show us (since there was no clear winner as the disarming scene was cut). And that's why I think Sidious didn't want to keep saber fighting for too long.

regards

 

Most of us Star Wars fans don't know anything about that sport, and that's why seeing Yoda repulsing Sids' saber 2 or 3 times in a row can give us the impression that Yoda is a little more in control or at least, is as good as Sidious when it comes to use the force during a lightsaber duel.

It's true analysing saber locks can be interpreted as over analysing, but keep in mind I'm not trying to draw solid conclusions on who's the best fighter. But there were 2 or 3 saber locks during the fight, and everytime, Yoda proved to be the strongest. I don't care if it's not relevant since no one was hurt, but it certainly gave me the impression that Yoda was a little more in control and I think that's what Lucas wanted to show us (since there was no clear winner as the disarming scene was cut). And that's why I think Sidious didn't want to keep saber fighting for too long.

regards[/quote]


This is not correct. If we are going to count facial expressions in saber locks then Yoda lost in that part as well. There are 4 locks where we see a facial expression:

first lock (in room): Sidious laughing; Yoda grimacing point Sidious
second lock (in room): Sidious laughing; Yoda grimacing point Sidious
third lock (on pod): Sidious grimacing; Yoda grimacing no points
fourth lock (on pod): Sidious aarghs; Yoda unseen point Yoda

The Yoda saber lock point was later but remember that Sidious losing his lightsaber was cut from the movie, either for time or because GL did not want to show Sidious as losing his saber twice. GL cut it so it cannot be considered if you are a "movie is the only canon thing type." The movie shows the saber battle as pretty even, and Yoda did not win saber locks if we are just going by facial expressions.

 

True this is the only thing that makes the emperor stronger than Yoda but I do not find it more impressive. It's just a power that only dark side users have. And Yoda blocked it with his hands. Something (correct me if I'm mistaken) that only Yoda can do. Which is a very good indication of his power. And whoever said that Sidious was faking this duel.....is just....no doing well.