*OFFICIAL THREAD* Yoda vs. Sidious duel discussion v.2

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by KnightWriter, May 19, 2005.

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  1. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3
    I agree
  2. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Therefore being more experienced with the force and being stronger with the force than Mace, thus it shouldnt make Mace better than him just because he is younger.

    On the AOTC Featurette, Gillard said that Mace is second only to Yoda. This may refer only to force powers, maybe Mace is as good as Yoda with a saber. On screen Yoda looks faster with a lightsaber than Mace, but this might be due to the fact that Yoda is computer generated and Mace is played by a man in his fifties. I don't know if Lucas wants us to think Yoda is a better swordsman than Mace, but the movies say Yoda had the highest midichlorian count of the Jedi besides Anakin. Most of the power references are aimed at Yoda, as even the Emperor tells Anakin that he'll become even more powerful than Master Yoda. The only reference to Windu was Anakin's "as powerful as Master Windu". This leads me to believe that Yoda is at least superior to Mace in force power, and possibly in lightsaber skills. Both are ranked level 9, so they could be equal.
  3. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Master_Shaitan posted:
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    Thats debateable and for another thread.
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    Then start another thread and let?s debate it

    There is one already - Do the jedi believe Anakin can turn back from the dark side.

    Master_Shaitan posted:
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    Dont really understand what you have said there. I'll freestyle anyhow. Lucas confirms that Luke was half trained. Yoda says that Luke knows what he needs. therefore Luke is prepared mentally for the challenge now.
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    It?s a nonsense. So Luke was training only his mind, Yoda and Obi Wan never intended he trained his powers, and he didn?t need his powers to defeat the sith??? If I need to believe all these things to buy the faking theory, I keep on believing what I saw onscreen is what actually happened.

    Im not saying that. Of course he was trained for battle also. but it was his mental powers that were key. Just look at how he succeeds in ROTJ.


    Master_Shaitan posted:
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    Because he's hesitating. he isnt sure if he should or not.
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    I hope you are joking.


    Oh, ok. lets use your explanation - it doesnt make sense.

    Master_Shaitan posted:
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    Surprise me.
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    I will don?t worry, but not right now.

    [face_plain]
  4. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3
    You contradict yourself. If they were training Luke physically, no matter if it was in order to face Vader or Jar jar bins, the training he left was a physical (and I guess mental too) training. So the training he came back to complete was the physical and mental one, and therefore the training Yoda considered complete was the pysical and mental one.

    Also the Emperor is the greates threat for the galaxy. I find it absurd that they trained Luke just to defeat Vader and forgot the emperor
  5. Drchopper Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Hmm.... some of these more recent posts show that people are wrestling with this dilema:

    Yoda was supposed to be more powerful than Mace- yet Mace defeated Sidious but Yoda could not. How is this possible????

    Simple, Sidious threw the fight against Mace. He had to make Anniken chose- remember he told Anniken that the Jedi were planning a rebellion and were going to overthrow him. And thats exactly what he faciliated with Mace..... throw the fight at the right moment, and make Anniken make the ultimate choice that takes him past the point of no return. The tempo of the Mace/Sidious fight was only 50% the pace of the Yoda/Sidious fight.

    Sidious would have completely pwned Mace if he didn't want to throw the fight. He had the saber against Mace's chest, and did not follow through. His arm was outstretched, so he would have to lunge forward about a foot to run Mace through. This would have left him open, but Mace would not have been able to swing his saber in time (remember his arm was outstretched and to the side). Note that the first bout of lightening fired at Mace lacked the intensity and hate of the second bout of lightening.... Sidious was playing with him.

    This scheme suggests Sidious would have to be supremely confident to contemplate letting himself be beaten. Confident in Anniken coming to his aid, and (worse case scenario), taking on Mace and Anniken at once... using lightening, telekinesis and his second light saber. This crazy plot isn't beyond Sidious (over confidence was always his big weakness:rolleyes: )..... he invited the rebellion to attack his unfinished Death Star in ROTJ, and even allowed Luke Skywalker to come before him ("He could destroy us- the son of skywalker must NOT become a jedi"). He also let himself be taken by General Grevious... and put himself in the middle of a battlezone :eek:

    Only Yoda was strong enough to have a chance to defeat Sidious (on his day), but he was not quiet strong enough.
  6. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4

    ** too shocked to react ****:eek: :eek:

    you agree with .......me ???[face_worried] [face_worried]

    *** cant hold back the tears ***:_| :_| :_|


    yippie !!!!!!!!!!!!![face_dancing] [face_dancing]
  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    yoda is not mace alright.maybe mace got lucky and disarmed palps not for his superior skills but by kicking at the right time

    Thats not the question.

    maybe palps style was crap against mace

    Yeah maybe...[face_thinking]

    and dont say that thousand of troopers wont be a problem,there is no way yoda could get to sidious for a rematch even if he wanted.

    And there's no way kenobi could sneek around the death star...oh wait...

    mace was the only one besides fully trained anakin who could beat sidious but mace is dead so there is nobody up to the task.

    So Mace is stronger than Yoda?

    BTW, why was Anakin born with such a high midichlorian count?
  8. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Let's stop baiting each other. [face_plain]
  9. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3

    That was not expected. Yoda and Obi wanted him to destroy the sith. both of them.


    More likely. i would say it's made to increase the drama of the scene.
  10. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    You contradict yourself. If they were training Luke physically, no matter if it was in order to face Vader or Jar jar bins, the training he left was a physical (and I guess mental too) training. So the training he came back to complete was the physical and mental one, and therefore the training Yoda considered complete was the pysical and mental one.

    Yoda doesnt say that Luke completed the training - he says "no more training do you require".

    Luke was mentally prepared. Do you honestly believe that Luke was physically capable of killing Vader and Sidious? there was a slight chance, but he could have done with more training in that sense! Luke was mentally ready. His destiny was to face Vader. Yoda trained him for this. Luke had to overcome the dark side first. Once he did this he could then make a rational choice on what to do next. The jedi werent involved in this choice.

    Also the Emperor is the greates threat for the galaxy. I find it absurd that they trained Luke just to defeat Vader and forgot the emperor

    Thats not what im saying:oops:


    They trained him to face Vader. They had faith that once luke overcame the dark side challenge, he could somehow bring about the destruction of the sith - be it through killing, turning or sacrifice etc

    That was not expected. Yoda and Obi wanted him to destroy the sith. both of them.

    Check out the other thread i pointed out.

    Right im off to bed.
  11. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3



    That's part of the question.




    It's no way the same. It's not the same thing entering the death star than going under the Emperor's eyes, and it was lots of years later when the jedi were considered all extinct.
  12. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    We must accept that masters of the Force, when fighting one another, have a 50/50 chance of successfully beating their opponent.

    Yoda lost his match with Sidious due to certain variables.

    Yoda knows that he could not beat Sidious once he fell weaponless. So he called Bail and admitted defeat. This doesn't mean that Yoda could never beat Sidious, just not at that time.

    When Yoda discovers the twins, he and Obi-Wan arrange for their protection and wait until the time is right to make their move against the Sith. Yoda is more important now as a teacher to pass on his knowledge to Luke.

    The Jedi legacy must continue.

    The fact that Qui-Gon taught Ben and Yoda how to retain their identity means they would always be able to commune through the Force.

    But it was all on Luke to defeat the sith and pass on what he learned.

    For purposes of this thread, Yoda lost to Sidious in this one instance but it does not mean Yoda would have always lost.
  13. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Thats not the question.

    yes it is the question because there are many posibilities of why mace beated palps and yoda couldnt.

    And there's no way kenobi could sneek around the death star...oh wait...

    [face_thinking] kenobi is not yoda and palps would be a lot more guarded that vader/tarkin



    So Mace is stronger than Yoda?

    you said it yourself.

    lets say

    sidious - A
    mace - B
    yoda - C

    so because B beats A and A beats C that means that B is stronger than C ??? maybe in your mind but not in reality.using your teams example i 've seen manchester beat chelsea and i ve seen new castle beat manchester and hell that doesnt make new castle a better team than chelsea .







  14. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Mace has nothing to do with Yoda's fight with Sidious. Nothing.

    Yoda and Mace are equally strong - they are masters of the Force. They are both on par with Sidious. Sidious is neither stronger nor weaker.

    A fight between masters can go either way.
  15. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    thats exactly what i meant but a little off topic arguments and a lot of more words.;)
  16. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda and Mace are equally strong - they are masters of the Force. They are both on par with Sidious. Sidious is neither stronger nor weaker.

    According to Gillard, Mace is second only to Yoda. The Visual Dictionary said Yoda was "overmatched", which means the Emperor is more powerful than he is. I think the following quotes make it clear Yoda is less powerful than the Emperor.

    "The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat."- OS Databank Entry
    "the Sith bested him."- OS Databank Entry for Yoda
    "the dark side is more powerful"- Lucas in AOTC DVD Commentary
    "He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side."- Nick Gillard
    "This truth: that he, the avator of light, supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just-didn't-have it. He'd never had it."- middle of page 396 of Stover's novel
    "The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?"- towards the end of page 396 of Stover's novel
    "Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced."-
    Nick Gillard
    "His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."- Nick Gillard
    "He's gotta be even more powerful than the Jedi."- Rick McCallum
    "Yoda was going to get a tough time"- Ian McDiarmid
    "Palpatine is ambidextrous with his saber. He's THAT good."-Gillard
    "Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."- Gillard
  17. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i wasnt baiting,he started it and i didnt do it ,but this guy loves to make fun of other people's posts(not that i dont sometimes[face_devil] but this time im inocentO:) )
  18. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3

    We have already read those quotes 367 times. I don't know why you bother to retype them once and over again.
  19. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4

    i have to disagree with one of those quotes farrelg.when gillard says that mace is second to yoda he says " we know that he is second only to yoda",my point is that with that quote,from my POV, gillard is saying that all of us should take for a given that mace is second to yoda but i dont see anything in the movies to support that.
  20. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3

    Lucas has said that Mace is on par with Yoda. Lucas' statements overwrite Gillard's ones
  21. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    so you agree with me than mace is not weaker than yoda.??[face_thinking]
  22. MasterKenobi777 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2005
    star 2
    "According to Gillard, Mace is second only to Yoda. The Visual Dictionary said Yoda was "overmatched", which means the Emperor is more powerful than he is. I think the following quotes make it clear Yoda is less powerful than the Emperor."

    Power means nothing in a fight. Sure you may be 'powerful' but sometimes someone just outperforms you. Look at The Duel, Anakin was clearly more powerful than Obi-Wan but Obi-Wan beats him. The same thing goes for Mace. I have never seen anything that says he's more powerful than the Emperor, therefore I believe the Emperor is the more powerful combatant. However Mace beats him fair and square. He 'overpowered' the Emperor according to the OS and GL himself on the ROTS commentary. Just because someone is more powerful it does not mean they can lose and Windu proved that. Using your thinking then, since Anakin overpowers Dooku, but Obi-Wan beats Anakin Obi-Wan is more powerful than Dooku. See how that doesn't work???
  23. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3
    I don't have it quite clear, but I find some reasons to believe Mace may be the the strongest Jedi in combat
  24. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    yes,yes, to MasterKenobi777 you listen,hit the nail on the head he has.
  25. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    the only thing that bugs me is that we never got to see how his force powers were.
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