*OFFICIAL THREAD* Yoda vs. Sidious duel discussion v.2

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by KnightWriter, May 19, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. keko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2005
    star 1
    "Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda," Gillard smirked. "If he gets within range, there's no question... you're dead."

    For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

  2. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    One poster mentioned earlier the interesting succession of events in the OT about Obiwan's role and then Yoda's

    this made me think. There is a paraless to this for the dark side.
    In ANH, Darth Vader was the ultimate villian, the big baddie of them all. The all powerful one. In fact, in ESB he was for the first 30 mintues. Then we see he has a master. That was shocking. But even so , it seemd like he may just be respecting the role of the emperor.
    ROTJ is where you could finally see he is a force user and pretty good at it, but noone thought he was better then Vader.
    But just an interesting paraless to the other post, though not nearly explained as well as the other post. my bad.


    This duel was how I always imagined. A huge force duel, in which part of it includes yoda taking on the lightning barehanded and ending up as a tie but with Yoda needing to leave.

    Here is something. Once Anikin knew about the emperor, the Jedi should have called all 5000 jedi back home, then they all march into the emperor's quarters together at once and end his rein.
    But that wouldn't be as interesting.

    I always thought it would have been interesting to see Yoda and Luke go together and Luke fight Vader while Yoda faces sidious.
    Although I don't think Yoda would have had much access to the Death star.

    Oh also, again. I get frustrated when people use this whole arguement of "jedi/sith in their prime" making them more powerful.
    No, the older they are, the better they are with the force until they are dead or dying.
    Let us revisit something here:

    Yoda 850+ : Defeated someone like Dooku, reversed lighting, threw an avelanche out of the way with ease, moved faster than a blur in lighsaber duel, and look at how he handeled 2 guys about to shoot him from a distance of 2 feet.
    Sidious: Proabbly at leat 70 or 80, but I believe he has his his age with his power , extneded it or something, and is actaully 200 300, maybe even 1000 years old. But eve at 70:
    sidious did : super acrobatics, wiped out 3 jedi masters in 15 seconds, threw senate pods all over hte place.
    Dooku in his 80s +:
    Easily handled untrained anikinand obiwan, caused cave avelanche, beat obiwan twice, teste Yoda pretty good, and moved quickly doing backflips and such.
    Mace: 50-60 And he was the most powerufl other then the chosen one and the 2 masters of their force sides.
    Maul: 20 or so, got trashed, but he was good for his age
    Luke: same thing
    Obiwan apprentice: same thing
    Anikin: young but super powerful (chosen one)
    Obiwan (alec guiness). 60 years old:
    Only diffrence here is no budged to hire stunt doubles, no digital technoloy.
    I could also argue that a low ceiling and small room on the Death Star was not exactly a place where they would be showing speed, power and agility. They were having more of a talking duel anyway, they were reminiscing half the time teasing each other just taking random swings.
    If GL had the techonology then I assure it would be in a diffrent arena to show their skills.

    Also, the knowledge of the force increases your power til you die, thus prime is just before you die pretty much.
    Lightsaber battles, the speed and effectiveness of doing the saber battles is in fact using the force. The better you are at the force, the better you are as a duelist because the force controls your actions.

    I hope this helps.







  3. Drchopper Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Yoda900,

    I thought it was implied clearly in ROTJ and ESB that the Emperor was more powerful than Vadar. Vadar was, at best 80% the power of the Emperor. Vadar needed(and wanted) Luke so they could destroy the emperor.

    Secondly, Yoda never actually defeated Dooku. Yoda deflected all his force attacks, but that doesn't count for defeat. Yoda sent the lightening back to Dooku; Dooku very easily deflected it again.

    Visually there was no clear winner in the Dooku/Yoda dual. People like to think Yoda won because he was bouncing about like a crazy muppet- but you need to look past that. Dooku fled because he(and Yoda) were unable to find an advantage. Why risk fighting when you can't be sure you can win?? Check out the link below.
    http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/
  4. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    Personally I don't care what Gillard or anybody else say's re: Fighting skills. it is IRRELEVANT. and may only be relevant in some Visual guide, or Insider article where they get a useless and pointless number rating. It amuses me that the Combatants in SW are now being rated and judged like this. What is relevant is what we saw on screen . and what we saw was Yoda do his very best to defeat Sideous. But accept it, he failed. he retreated and fled. that is a fact that is indisputable. People need to really get past their Hero worship and accept a few truths. the Jedi were always going to lose . we have known this for well over 20 years. so now it happens we go into some sort of Denial. people need to wake up ,and deal with it. " do not underestimate the power of the Emperor " what does that mean to you?. cause to me it means just that. Palps is powerful , and Yoda knows it.
  5. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    And somewhere else I read that they took out the disarming deliberately. But even if he'd lost it that doesn't tell much about what would have happened on the floor, since both of them have been shown quite capable of fighting without a saber.

    No, that doesn't mean that ultimately Yoda's defeat was due to a circumstance. At best it means that the defeat happening at this moment was due to a circumstance, since no-one knows what would have happened otherwise.

    So in turn this would mean that Maul had "the bad luck" because he played around gloating instead of making sure that there weren't any weapons around anymore and finishing Obi off right there. You may call that bad luck, I call it an inexcusable fighting mistake.
    By the same argument you could say Yoda was lucky to even survive the first two minutes of that fight because Sids preferred to gloat and do trash talk when Yoda was knocked out in the Chancellor's office instead of drawing his saber and finishing him off right there. Instead you are making the point that it was Sids who won the fight due to luck.

    Obi-Wan being of the opinion that "it was over" doesn't mean he couldn't have gotten out of that situation. Maul thought "it was over", too, and Grievous thought "it was over" and Obi-Wan still got away.

  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Let's not make this personal, period. If you cannot post in a civil manner, then we can take care of that problem real quick.
  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    These are my main reasons for disliking the idea that Mace overpowered Sidious.

    1) Mace won. Yoda didnt. Now I know thats easily explainable. Every fight is different. It is no reflection upon the two jedi's abilities. Yet this is what we see on screen and take away with us. Mace Windu won and Yoda didnt.

    2) It cheapens the finale in ROTJ. I thought that The Emperor was the most powerful of all characters, especially with the shroud of the dark side so strong. I dont see him has invincible. Drop a nuclear war-head on his lap and he's dead. But in one on one combat he's too good for anyone. Even if you best him with a lightsaber he should be too powerful with his force powers to handle. Yet Mace deals with him. So when we get to the finale of ROTJ instead of having this character whom seems unbeatable we have a character whom has been defeated already. So the acts of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader aren't as powerful as we first thought. Its been done.

    3) This is a two way point:

    This is similar to point 2:

    The Jedi trained Luke to face Vader and then do what was right at the time - therefore it wasnt about killing Sidious in combat. Luke was taught to listen to the Force, act rationally and do the right thing. He did this and his magnificant act of self sarfice was the catlyst for the destruction of the Sith. But if thats the case doesnt it cheapen the idea about beating Sidious through other means when Mace can do it fair and square in a duel? It just seems that Luke does something remarkable. yet with Mace already winning it cheapens it for me and makes him look rather foolish.


    OR

    (This point is for those who believe Luke was sent to kill Vader). If Luke was trained to kill Sidious it makes the Jedi seem very silly. Luke was half trained and was no where near as powerful as Yoda or Kenobi in their ROTS prime. Why would he be able to destroy Sidious? Secondly, they allow him to confront Sidious when he is half trained. So Yoda must have been kicking himself for passing up the opportunity of facing Sidious again - because a Yoda after ROTS was a far stronger warrior than a Luke in ROTJ - basically he would have had a better chance of killing Sidious being the more powerful.

    I'm sure many of you will disagree with these points and find an explanation for them. Thats very possible and very likely. They can be explained depending on your point of view. But for me the explanations are weak and cheapen the saga a great deal.

    If Mace had to beat Sidious why not have him tap the dark side to show that you can only get close to the Sith by doing the wrong thing - like Luke in ROTJ? Better still have it clearly shown that Sidious was faking so we know he could have eventually blown Mace away. Mace shouldnt have overpowered Sidious. Yoda losing is fine. Then, when we get to ROTJ, those single acts by Luke and Vader are all the more powerful. Sidious couldnt be beaten in combat but he can be beaten through an act of love, compassion and humanity.
  8. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    That's because this is merely an opinion, someone's own take on a scene and a characeter. To you the Emperor seemed all powerful, to me Yoda did. It's different for everyone, thats why you can't jump to conclusions that everyone believed the Emperor to be the most powerful. As for throwing and lifting heavy objects, didn't Palpatine lift pods and throw them at Yoda??? Isn't that deadly?? Didn't Yoda throw one back??? That seems pretty effective to me, maybe it's just me.

    The pods would be deadly if they hit someone, but they didn't. Because neither the Emperor or Yoda killed or hit each other with pods, I thought they weren't the most effective combat method. Plus, if they were in an enviornment where there weren't any huge objects to throw, telekinesis wouldn't be very helpful.

    My point was in the OT we had never seen Yoda face the Emperor, so it was better for the Emperor's character. We had no proof that Yoda could counter lightning, so some people could imagine the Emperor's lightning as being unstoppable. This works better for the Emperor because he seems like a more powerful and intimidating villain if you don't see someone being able to counter his powers. Thinking that lightning is impossible to stop makes the climax of ROTJ better because you think the Emperor is so powerful and Luke or probably anyone else doesn't stand a chance against him. However, it turns out that with Vader's help, the 500 times more powerful Emperor can be defeated.

    I thought everyone would have thought the Emperor is more powerful than Vader after seeing ROTJ. Vader never used force lightning and had to use a lightsaber if he wanted to kill Luke (and even lost the fight). The Emperor was so powerful that all he needed was lightning to kill Luke, and Luke couldn't even put up a fight. The Emperor in ROTJ defeated Luke much more easily than Vader did in ESB. No one had proof that a lightsaber could block lightning at the time, so I don't think anyone thought the situation in ROTJ would be any different if Luke kept his lightsaber. We've seen blaster shots deflected by a saber, but lightning covers a much wider area than blaster shots.
  9. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Mace Windu died, Yoda survived - I think some people are forgetting this fundamental fact.
  10. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Hehe, GiG, I think people are forgetting a lot of things - especially that there are narrative reasons the fights transpire the way they do.

  11. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Yoda surviving isnt really anything to do with the point I was making though GiG.

    ETC - You're right. Certain scene are designed to be dramtic and exciting and different. But that doesnt mean they dont have to 'make sense' or 'fit in' with the story.

    :)
  12. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    The things we are discussing ARE the story.
    They can't not fit.
    Lucas explains it all on the commentary, and Gillard said as much months ago - when you get to the level that Palpatine, Mace and Yoda are at, the tiny nuances of each fight and each combatant's personal fighting style is all that separates them.
    It is like saying that Obi should not be able to best Ani, because Dooku puts Obi out of action twice and Ani owns Dooku.

    Shaitan, you have just said you have "a problem" wiht Mace being able to momentarily get the better of Palpatine.
    With all due respect, isn't that because you have spent the past year or so trying to convince yourself and everyone else on these boards that Mace could not, should not and does not do exactly that?
  13. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    And there's a reason why I have been trying to 'convince' people of that GiG.

    I dont believe it works for the story.
  14. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I think that Mace got the better of Palpatine - because Palpatine ALLOWED him to. It was all part of his gambit. If he allowed himself to be captured and held on The Invisible Hand and potentially blown to pieces to help turn Anakin, why wouldn't he do so again when Anakin needed another - and final - jolt to the Dark Side? I feel this is represented visually by Lucas with his recurring motif of Palpatine sitting. In all previous scenes between Anakin and Palpatine, Palpatine always began by sitting. Against the window ledge, however, he's clearly out of his chair and half sat/half cowering. This visually suggests that he was again manipulating the situation for his own ends but that he was treading a thin line by allowing Mace to potentially kill him. There's chaos and control mixed together at that moment.
  15. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    ..And then totally contradicted by Lucas explaining how Mace overpowers Palpatine on the DVD commentary, but this really isn't the thread to go into all that...
  16. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3
    I've not mentioned you know.
  17. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Erm...

    Did I or did I NOT just say that Palpatine LET Mace overpower him? The fact that Mace overpowers Palpatine isn't in dispute: the reasons for HOW and WHY he does so are.
  18. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3

    Somewhere else?? What a proof.
    Of course they took it out deliberately, every cut scene is deliberately cut, no thief has secretly stolen that part of the film. But why have they deliberately cut it?? In all the deleted scenes documentaries (not only in star wars) they tell us the reasons why those scenes are taken out (it was too long, it overwhelms the rest of the scene, it weakens the rhythms of the movie, it takes our attention away from the main point?) they never talk about changed concepts, because such ones don?t lead to a cut scene but to a rewritten script.

    Lucas Film policy on this matter is very clear, and while they don?t change it you have no other option but to admit it.

    I wonder if the disarming is not important why the sidious fans have struggled so much trying to convince others that it never happened.
    The lightsaber is a mortal weapon, and if Yoda disarmed Sidious it means he had a real chance to kill him, and put him on important advantage, like Windu proved. Sidious had to disarm Yoda too, if not he would be killed. If Yoda had handled his saber better like Windu did, he would have defeated Sidious. Lightsaber skills are not any minor point.

    By the same argument you could say Yoda was lucky to even survive the first two minutes of that fight because Sids preferred to gloat and do trash talk when Yoda was knocked out in the Chancellor's office instead of drawing his saber and finishing him off right there. Instead you are making the point that it was Sids who won the fight due to luck.

    Luck is a very abstract concept. Let?s call it circumstances. I don?t matter if it was luck, a Maul?s mistake, the will of the Force that made Qui Gon die close to that hole, or whatever, but he needed that tube to hold on and that saber to have a second chance.

    I don?t consider one lateral pod bar a proof of Sidious powers, unless it was not there at first and he used some kind of magic to make it suddenly appear so that he could hold on that.

    Maul and Grevoius never said anything. But I believe Lucas made clear that the battle was finished, and that anakin?s reject to admit it, contrasted with Yoda?s decision meant his destruction.

    On my dictionary it?s equal. It?s synonym with ?defeating? and ?dominating?.

  19. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    How did this get back to Mace v. Palpatine?? Move along....
  20. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Don't you guys know you're not supposed to discuss the most important scene in the movie? :p

    What I want to discuss is how hard and sharp Yoda's fingernails must be to scrape into the pod like that. Do you guys think the pods are built out of plastic, fiberglass, or metal?

    This really might be the key to how Yoda lost.
  21. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3
    So he is invincible. He is not immortal but he is invincible.

    Of course they are as powerful anyway. Among thousands of Jedi (the best warriors ever) only one had been able to defeat him, in fact didn?t completely defeat him as Palpatine managed to turn the tide. He?s extremely resistant, and now all those warrior are dead. Only Luke and Vader can kill him. They save the galaxy at the last moment, I don?t think it?s any cheapen final except for those who need the Emperor to be all powerful.

    The Jedi trained Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor. It was Luke who refused to kill his own father, while Obi Wan and Yoda wanted him to do it. Luke was being trained, fully trained. It includes mental and physical training. Lucas made a contradiction no matter how much make up you use to cover it. In RTOJ commentary he says Luke is half trained because he was too impulsive and left his training to save Han and Leia. Then the training that he didn?t complete is the one he was already receiving, and the one he went back to complete. The same one that Yoda said was already complete. Now you may say whatever but it?s an evident contradiction.

    I believe you forget this movie is not about Palpatine, but about Anakin. What Lucas has made is creating the same situation (you must know he likes a lot doing this) in ROTS and in RTOJ. In both of them, It?s Anakin who has the burden of the destiny. In both of them he is having an enormous inner battle, which leads to the opposite reaction. In ROTJ he turns back to the light side, kills the Emperor, saves the good one, brings balance to the Force, finishes the Empire?
    In ROTS he turns to the dark side, saves the Emperor, kills the good one, leaves the Force in darkness, allows the Empire to rise? It?s a perfect an coherent analogy. What I find absurd is Anakin doing all those things in ROTJ, but in ROTS turning to the dark side? and that?s all, because his act was irrelevant for anything else as the Emperor was going to survive anyway, the Force would grow dark anyway, Windu would die anyway, the Empire would be created anyway? Excuse me but what is cheapened then is all the chosen one business.

    I find proved that originally Luke was not conceived as half trained. Anyway Yoda was too old in ROTJ. He was dying, I believe he was too weakened.

  22. jedi_ethan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2005
    star 3
    RebelScum77, I think you should understand that we just can't help doing this. I mean it's the hot spot now, the discussion is at it's top. We try to discuss about yoda and Sidiuos but those threads are linked each other.
  23. keko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2005
    star 1
    One of ILM?s greatest challenges was the lightsaber battle between Yoda and Darth Sidious, which will be intercut with the Anakin?Obi-Wan duel. ?It was time to see the two toughest guys in the universe take each other on,? Lucas says. A tall order, since it has to one-up Yoda?s showdown with Count Dooku, one of Episode II?s most popular scenes. The Yoda fight in III took more than 20 ILM staffers more than four months to complete. Russell Earl, the CG supervisor for the sequence, concedes that although the technology is better and faster than it was just one film ago, that adds to the challenge: ?It makes it easier and harder, because now people are expecting more.?

  24. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I understand that some discussion of Sidious v. Mace is revelevant to the Yoda v. Sidious topic, but when nearly an entire page is filled solely with Sidious v. Mace, then I have to step in. This is not the place to only discuss that fight. There was a thread and we gave many, many chances with it. We've also given this thread many chances, but we're getting a bit fed up. Please only discuss Mace v. Sidious as it directly pertains to Yoda v. Sidious.
  25. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Of course they took it out deliberately, every cut scene is deliberately cut, no thief has secretly stolen that part of the film. But why have they deliberately cut it?? In all the deleted scenes documentaries (not only in star wars) they tell us the reasons why those scenes are taken out (it was too long, it overwhelms the rest of the scene, it weakens the rhythms of the movie, it takes our attention away from the main point?) they never talk about changed concepts, because such ones don?t lead to a cut scene but to a rewritten script.

    Lucas Film policy on this matter is very clear, and while they don?t change it you have no other option but to admit it.

    I wonder if the disarming is not important why the sidious fans have struggled so much trying to convince others that it never happened.
    The lightsaber is a mortal weapon, and if Yoda disarmed Sidious it means he had a real chance to kill him, and put him on important advantage, like Windu proved. Sidious had to disarm Yoda too, if not he would be killed. If Yoda had handled his saber better like Windu did, he would have defeated Sidious. Lightsaber skills are not any minor point.


    We don't have proof the disarming happened. Yoda being hit by lightning in midair was in the screenplay but not in the movie. This isn't necessarily similar to the Death Star trying to destroy Endor in ROTJ or deleted scenes in ROTS involving the Alliance. Those scenes are plot points that add to the narrative.

    Yoda's disarming of the Emperor might have been cut or not filmed because Lucas felt that wasn't a good way to end the lightsaber duel. Even though it isn't flat-out contradicted by the film, it didn't necessarily happen. There would be no reason to not believe the scenes with the Alliance didn't happen because Lucas wants to show some Senators are opposing the Emperor. However, its possible that he wanted to fight scene to happen differently than it was described in the screenplay, especially since Yoda was not hit by lightning in midair.

    Not having the Emperor be disarmed does not change the plot, so its possible that Lucas doesn't want it to have happened. On the other hand, disregarding scenes involving the Alliance changes the narrative of the film. The scenes also add to our understanding of the plot, whereas Yoda's disarming does nothing of the sort and could have been cut merely because Lucas didn't want the Emperor to lose the saber fight. McDiarmid's comments support the notion that the Emperor is a faster swordsman than Yoda.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.