*OFFICIAL THREAD* Yoda vs. Sidious duel discussion v.2

i agree with farrelg here.

 

Yoda came up short (he he) in the battle, but was victorious in the war. the best dule in the saga IMO. or at least it had more significants and sybolism. if yoda didn't stop the emperor he would have fled. he knew yoda was not going to be easy.

 

How many times have you already used that example and how many times have I explained the thing?? You just don?t read posts or what???

Of course we have the definitive proof.

You are not the one to decide which cut scenes must be considered true, and which cut scenes mustn?t. Lucas Film LTD already has some people to do this, and it?s the continuity and production edition department, and they give you (and everyone) the definitive answer for this. Whenever a scene is in the script or the novels, and is cut from the film but not contradicted, IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

You have used that example of Yoda being caught in mid air 432 times and I have replied 432 times that it doesn?t prove anything, because the editors leave it clear that in this case, where the scene is shown in both the movie and the script and has a contradiction, the movie is right, but whenever the scene appears on the script or novel and not in the movie but it?s not contradicted, it happened.

Sithrules, it?s not something that I?m inventing, I?m sorry but apart from being logical it?s proved.
I think there is going to be a scene in the deleted scenes commentary where Shaak ti is killed by Grevious in the beginning. You?ll see how they tell you that it never happened even if they show it, because the script says that she was killed by Anakin in the jedi temple, and since it was not contradicted by the movie, that?s what actually happened.

 

Sithrules, it?s not something that I?m inventing, I?m sorry but apart from being logical it?s proved.
I think there is going to be a scene in the deleted scenes commentary where Shaak ti is killed by Grevious in the beginning. You?ll see how they tell you that it never happened even if they show it, because the script says that she was killed by Anakin in the jedi temple, and since it was not contradicted by the movie, that?s what actually happened


what !?!?!??! grievous killed shaak ti ???!?!?

i thought vader would do it i had even seen pics of vader killing her

 

Thats an aweful "personal" way to look at the screenplay isn't it?

So lets recap here.....

You feel that Yoda dominating Sidious in the early part of their duel, even though its clearly shown in the screenplay, is somehow not important as other scenes left out.

I'm sure you are aware of Lucas's policy regarding the screenplay. That policy states that unless the film directly contradicts the screenplay then the screenplay shall work to fill in missing scenes in the film that were taken out during editing. That means that Sidious was disarmed legit.....and this fact cannot be ignored.

I love the way you rant about Sidious, but use every chance you get to try to toss the screenplay's importance out of the window.......unless it showed that Sidious was all-powerful...lol

The screenplay stands.....the disarming happened. Sidious really does prove rather weak with a lightsaber by getting disarmed in consecutive duels by the two most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. But Sidious does save face by disarming Yoda and getting lucky on his pod placement after the final force explosion. I can't give Sidious credit for Mace.....not when everything Sidious attempted failed until he got help from Anakin. Whether Sidious was faking before Anakin walked in or not....the fact reamins that he was losing.

Sidious wins, but why can't you give Yoda his due? Why manufacture a scenario where Sidious is dominant over Yoda when this is never really shown on-screen.......besides the pods being thrown? Why

 

At last Shaak ti is killed by Anakin, but in an early version of the script she was kidnapped and killed by Grevious aboard his ship. I have some pictures of the scene, with special effects included so I guess they are going to use it in the deleted scenes docummentary. I don't have time right now but I will post them later

 

According to the starwars.com this is what happened in the duel between Yoda and Sideous:

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.

Sad to say then, Yoda lost - the Emperor was too powerful...
I was hoping they hadn't put it so bluntly. It leaves too little for discussion, should we follow this.

 

http://www.aintitcool.com/images/deletedscenes0.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/deletedscenes1.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/deletedscenes2.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/deletedscenes4.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/deletedscenes5.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/deletedscenes6.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/dag1.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/dag2.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/dag3.jpg
http://www.aintitcool.com/images/dag5.jpg


These are links ro pictures from the deleted scenes docummentary. Some of them belong to Grevious killing Shaak ti, which I had mentioned before

I hope I'm not doing a stupid thing if these pictures have already been posted here

 

Well quoted. But as we have seen in MANY other threads, using quotes from the most OFFICIAL of sources proves nothing: these discussions are about who's personal opinions are more valid.

ie- if you root for the good guys, then your opinion leans one way, despite deleted scenes, script, proof otherwise etc...
ie- if you root for the bad guys, then your opinion leans the OTHER way, despite deleted scenes, scripts, proof otherwise etc...

Basically, I FEEL that these discussions go nowhere. (IRONY???? )

 

hmm, MS, i think luke was trained to be a jedi, no more and no less. vader shaped things, yea, but they didnt let that consume them. that was part of lukes success, i think.

Rossa83
According to the starwars.com this is what happened in the duel between Yoda and Sideous:

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.

Sad to say then, Yoda lost - the Emperor was too powerful...
I was hoping they hadn't put it so bluntly. It leaves too little for discussion, should we follow this.

could you imagine just reading the OS instead of the movie though?

and those words from the OS are blunt. exactly right - not sharply explaining anything, theyre vague. *boom* hits you over the head, yes yoda lost. but how did yoda fight? with honour and smarts, not to underestimated either. and yes im a yoda fan, i like those details.

 

hmm, MS, i think luke was trained to be a jedi, no more and no less. vader shaped things, yea, but they didnt let that consume them. that was part of lukes success, i think.

JJ - Check out this thread. It regards what Luke was trained to do.

http://boards.theforce.net/Revenge_of_the_Sith_/b10331/20537725/?2407

 

thanks for the link, MS, will do.

 

I agree. But the thing is, it's fun to go nowhere with a bunch of overanalytical Star Wars fans, like myself

 

"The pods would be deadly if they hit someone, but they didn't. Because neither the Emperor or Yoda killed or hit each other with pods, I thought they weren't the most effective combat method. Plus, if they were in an enviornment where there weren't any huge objects to throw, telekinesis wouldn't be very helpful."

So you're saying the pods were not deadly by any means??? You can't be serious. The Emperor threw eight at Yoda and Yoda had to run to get away from them. If he didn't he would have been a mess of green goo. When Yoda sends the last one back Sidious is forced to flee. If these pods aren't deadly, why did they bother running away from them?? Throwing pods was a very effective method of fighting, because it caused both combatants to give up their ground and forced them into different situations. If the pods weren't deadly, why didn't Yoda or the Emperor just stand there since they are not a deadly method of fighting???? This is ridiculous farrellg. A pod weighing an unknown number of tons flying at someone is a very effective and deadly means of fighting because if it lands on that person they are dead, simple as that.

"My point was in the OT we had never seen Yoda face the Emperor, so it was better for the Emperor's character. We had no proof that Yoda could counter lightning, so some people could imagine the Emperor's lightning as being unstoppable. This works better for the Emperor because he seems like a more powerful and intimidating villain if you don't see someone being able to counter his powers. Thinking that lightning is impossible to stop makes the climax of ROTJ better because you think the Emperor is so powerful and Luke or probably anyone else doesn't stand a chance against him. However, it turns out that with Vader's help, the 500 times more powerful Emperor can be defeated."

This is where you have a problem. This is a saga, need I remind you again, not a trilogy. The Emperor's lightning is not unstoppable, Yoda proved that to everyone so get over it. It is very effective, don't get me wrong and a power no one else has, but it is not unstoppable and it can be blocked by both the saber and with the Force. Again, to you it seemed like he was the all powerful character in the OT not to everyone. To me Yoda was and still is to this day, the most powerful one of the saga. The only thing that makes the climax of ROTJ great is the fact that the Emperor is going to kill Luke, it had nothing to do with the lightning, it was the mere fact that Luke was going to die. Finally Anakin steps in and destroys the Emperor, saving Luke. That's what was so great about the climax, not some blue lightning coming from the Emperor's fingertips.

"I thought everyone would have thought the Emperor is more powerful than Vader after seeing ROTJ. Vader never used force lightning and had to use a lightsaber if he wanted to kill Luke (and even lost the fight). The Emperor was so powerful that all he needed was lightning to kill Luke, and Luke couldn't even put up a fight. The Emperor in ROTJ defeated Luke much more easily than Vader did in ESB. No one had proof that a lightsaber could block lightning at the time, so I don't think anyone thought the situation in ROTJ would be any different if Luke kept his lightsaber. We've seen blaster shots deflected by a saber, but lightning covers a much wider area than blaster shots."

The Emperor is more powerful than Vader because of the fact that Vader is now a cripple on life support who was lost most of his ability with the Force thanks to the injuries sustained from The Duel. But what you are missing is again this is a saga and is now a complete story, not just an unfinished story made up of just the OT. We know lightning can be blocked by a saber. Therefore Luke would have stood a chance against the Emperor, but that was not his mission, it was to face Vader which he does and he defeats him. He did exactly what he came there to do, nothing more or less. The Emperor beats Luke easily no doubt because Luke is a novice Jedi, his skills are definitely not up to those

 

^^^
Yeah, true. Despite ALL proof otherwise, Greedo DID shoot first, special edition be damned!

 

Sidious wins, but why can't you give Yoda his due? Why manufacture a scenario where Sidious is dominant over Yoda when this is never really shown on-screen.......besides the pods being thrown? Why build Sidious up at Yoda's expense is all I'm saying Master farrellg.

I give Yoda his due by saying he's the most powerful Jedi. But he's still no match for the Emperor because feeble Jedi skills "are no match for the power of the dark side". Its essential to the story that the Emperor dominate Yoda 100% because that's the way he was presented in ROTJ. His lightning made him special because it seemed he could kill anyone the way he tried to do with Luke.

If Yoda is a match for the Emperor's lightning, it makes the Emperor seem less intimidating, less effective of a character, and negates the reason why people liked him in the first place. Yoda is powerful, but he doesn't have to be insanely strong and deadly in order to be an effective character, especially since "wars not make one great". On the other hand, the Emperor needs to be extremely powerful and deadly in order to be an appealing character because that's the way he was presented in the OT, and an evil villain is supposed to be scary and powerful.

The screenplay stands.....the disarming happened. Sidious really does prove rather weak with a lightsaber by getting disarmed in consecutive duels by the two most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

How would getting disarmed twice make a character weak? What if the opponents that they are facing are just that good? The results of a fight don't just depend on you, but also on who you are fighting. I don't see how someone who loses some fights but does extraordinary in others can be considered weak. Anakin got beat up much worse than the Emperor and I wouldn't even consider him weak. Dooku lost to Anakin (and would have lost to Yoda, Mace, or the Emperor) and I certainly don't consider him weak.

He killed three of the greatest Jedi Masters (according to the OS and novelisation) in less than ten seconds. This proves his lightsaber skills are anything but weak if he can face four opponents at once and kill three of them as if he were swatting flies. The Emperor one of only four characters who are rated level 9. So he's at a higher level of lightsaber skills than everyone in the galaxy except for three other people. If any of the other hundreds of Jedi faced the Emperor, he certainly would not be disarmed and they would be easily killed like Mace's posse.

I don't think the disarming happened because its contradicted by McDiarmid's comments. Also, I pointed out that Yoda being hit by lightning in midair is in the script but did not happen in the film. Its also possible that Yoda's disarming of the Emperor happened in the screenplay but not in the film. How can we be sure Lucas wants us to believe it happened if it isn't in the film? He doesn't want us to believe Yoda was hit by lightning in midair even though it was in the script.

So you're saying the pods were not deadly by any means??

The pods would be deadly if they hit someone, but they didn't. I was saying that the Emperor's lightning attack on Luke was more deadly than the pod throwing match because Luke would have been killed by the lightning if he wasn't saved. Both Yoda and the Emperor were able to avoid the pods, so it wasn't as effective in killing either of them as the Emperor's lightning was in killing Luke. This is why I think lightning is a more impressive power than telekinesis. Thrown objects can be avoided more easily than lightning.

 

"The pods would be deadly if they hit someone, but they didn't. I was saying that the Emperor's lightning attack on Luke was more deadly than the pod throwing match because Luke would have been killed by the lightning if he wasn't saved. Both Yoda and the Emperor were able to avoid the pods, so it wasn't as effective in killing either of them as the Emperor's lightning was in killing Luke. This is why I think lightning is a more impressive power than telekinesis. Thrown objects can be avoided more easily than lightning."

Using your mind set on this, since the pods didn't kill anyone they aren't deadly but if we are going by just the OT as you like to the lightning did not kill Luke therefore it was not deadly. A Senate pod would be more effective than lightning any day because it's a guarantee you will die and quickly from it since it will completely crush you, lightning on the other hand takes awhile for someone to die from it. It's not like one blast kills someone, it takes awhile for the user to electrocure them until they die. A pod would be instant death while lightning would take a while to a kill a person, I think based on that a pod would be more effective than lightning. Lightning can be avoided by a saber as we have seen on a few occasions and it can be avoided by the use of the Force, it can be stopped and it's effects negated like it or not. If the Emperor was supposed to come off as the all-powerful, unstoppable bad guy as you think he should have been GL would have not had Mace defeat him with the saber or have Yoda be able to deflect his lightning.

 

Ha ha ha ha. Good joke, it?s made me laugh a lot.

It?s essential for your conception of the story, not for the story.
You fail to understand that this is not Sidious? movie but every character?s movie.

And it's not the way he was presented in ROTJ, it's they way you believed he was in ROTJ

So now Mcdiarmid words are above Lucas Film in canon level?? You have some ?personal point of view? words, made in one interview by one of the actors who didn?t even know his character could use a lightsaber when he had already played it in three movies.

I have Lucas Film LTD public and explicit policy on these matters. Who wins?? I think it?s clear.

I?m fed up with the ?catching him in midair issue? I think I have explained it enough times for anybody who wants to understand.

You may believe that the disarming never happened or that Padme was taller than Windu, you have that right. But objective people know the truth, and I think it?s good enough.

 

Using your mind set on this, since the pods didn't kill anyone they aren't deadly but if we are going by just the OT as you like to the lightning did not kill Luke therefore it was not deadly. A Senate pod would be more effective than lightning any day because it's a guarantee you will die and quickly from it since it will completely crush you, lightning on the other hand takes awhile for someone to die from it. It's not like one blast kills someone, it takes awhile for the user to electrocure them until they die. A pod would be instant death while lightning would take a while to a kill a person, I think based on that a pod would be more effective than lightning. Lightning can be avoided by a saber as we have seen on a few occasions and it can be avoided by the use of the Force, it can be stopped and it's effects negated like it or not. If the Emperor was supposed to come off as the all-powerful, unstoppable bad guy as you think he should have been GL would have not had Mace defeat him with the saber or have Yoda be able to deflect his lightning.

Luke needed someone else to save him from the lightning. Yoda and the Emperor didn't need anyone else to protect them from the pods- they avoided the pods successfully themselves. For this reason, Luke was in a more deadly situation with the lightning than Yoda or the Emperor were with the pods. Yoda and the Emperor could avoid pods, but Luke could not avoid lightning.

We had no evidence a lightsaber could block lightning or that the Force could block lightning in the OT. This is why the Emperor seemed practically all-powerful. I think its best to continue to regard him this way because the most evil character in the saga is supposed to be extremely tough, dangerous, and much more powerful than everyone else. That's how he was initially portrayed. Yoda was hit by the first blast of lightning, disarmed by the second, and completely overpowered by the final lightning struggle. This shows Yoda is much less powerful than the Emperor and would be easily killed during a lightning struggle.

The Visual Dictionary said Yoda was "overmatched". I think the following quotes indicate that the Emperor is more powerful than Yoda, as well as being much more powerful than all the other characters. Hence the reason why he is almost all-powerful.

"The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat."- OS Databank Entry
"the Sith bested him."- OS Databank Entry for Yoda
"the dark side is more powerful"- Lucas in AOTC DVD Commentary
"He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side."- Nick Gillard
"This truth: that he, the avator of light, supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just-didn't-have it. He'd never had it."- middle of page 396 of Stover's novel
"The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?"- towards the end of page 396 of Stover's novel
"Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced."- Gillard
"His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."- Nick Gillard
"He's gotta be even more powerful than the Jedi."- Rick McCallum
"Yoda was going to get a tough time"- Ian McDiarmid
"Palpatine is ambidextrous with his saber. He's THAT good."-Gillard
"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."- Gillard

Edit: Ha ha ha ha. Good joke, it?s made me laugh a lot.

Why is this so funny? The Emperor said it himself. He told Luke: "Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side." In Stover's novel he tells Yoda that even a fraction of the dark side holds more power than his Jedi arrogance could ever conceive.

 

I don't think we are supposed to think Yoda or Palpatine are weak, just that Yoda ultimately loses and ends up in a no win situation.

Here is how the genesis of the scene is described in Rinzler's Making of ROTS book:

The first draft had Sidious as a clear winner.
Back on Coruscant, PALPATINE easily deflects YODA's attacks, and the latter barely escapes with help from BAIL ORGANA.

This was intentionally changed by Lucas by the second draft:
When YODA confronts the EMPEROR, he has the upper hand at first and quips, "If anything I have to say about it, at an end your rule is, and short it was, I must say."

The next juncture for changing the scene fell during editing the movie together.
It was here that the decision to remove some of the moments mentioned above such as Palpatine's disarmament.
We have nothing concrete regarding the intention behind these cuts, but the point is they matter little, and we can only really judge on what is seen onscreen.
That said - we see Palpatine with his saber, then later he no longer has it, so it is obvious Sidious does lose his saber from a narrative point of view, although we can't say how for sure.

But, again, this is kind of moot to me.
I see the main part of duel as Force-fuelled tit-for-tat.
Then Yoda ends up below Palpatine with Senate pods being hurled at him.
This for me is still just tit-for-tat - you may think Sidious is great for being able to hurl the pods, but you are equally justified in viewing Yoda's ability to dodge them and make his way up to Palpatine's Senate podium as impressive.

For me, that is where the fight begins.
Lightside vs Darkside, bareknuckle face-off a close-quarters.
That is the essence of the scene.
It almost transcends narrative reality, it is pretty much a symbolic battle - the is the Jedi and Sith titans locking horns mano-a-mano.

Now as far as I'm concerned - Palpatine is not winning here, and neither is Yoda.
Yoda is pushing that lightning back at Palpatine.
"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."
That is what we are seeing being played out onscreen right before our eyes - the Sith agression, their whole outlook, being countered by the Jedi own outlook, that defense is cherished above attack.

Until that power just blows up in BOTH their faces.
THEY CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT.

And Palpatine hangs on, and Yoda falls far to the Senate floor.
Again, it is symbolic as much as it is a literal measure of these two combatants' prowess.
Yoda could leap back up and try again - but where would that get him?
Mace came close and failed.
Yoda too has now stared in the Emperor's jaundiced eyes and pushed his won lightning right back at him, and SITLL failed.
Now he is in a worse position than ever down there on the Senate floor.

That is why he runs.
He has already lost.

So to me, I see nothing to support the idea that Sidious OWNS Yoda.
By the same token, Yoda surely LOSES.
And that is all.

Palpatine has acheived what he set out to do before Yoda even set foot in the holding chamber...

 

Since we are rehashing the same arguments to death, and recently it's created nothing but baiting and flaming, we have decided to lock this until after the DVD comes out. Hopefully a cooling off period is just what everyone needs.

 

Up, but with some provisions.


No one will flame or bait in here. Discussions are to be as civil as possible. If we cannot do this, this thread will close once again and possibly for a much longer period of time. ROTS is now out, so it's okay to show screencaps and what not. Let's make this a better go around.

 

YAY! So is the Mace v. Sids thread reopened as well? I am looking forward to the screencaps!

Thanks mods!

 

I couldn't agree more. This is really what it comes down to. As GL says, Yoda has to lose, so he was stuck writing the scene already knowing that. But he wanted to show us that they are basically at an impasse. This is the top Jedi vs. the top Sith, and they are fighting all out with force powers. It's an impressive display, but, as many have mentioned, the important thing is that Yoda loses, but not by much.

 

"Into exile I must go. Failed, I have." - Yoda

"The truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just-
didn't-
have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.
He had most before he was born."

-Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith novel


"...the audience had to feel that he had lost, the he had lost and had to go into exile. It was important that they feel the sadness." - Rob Coleman (paraphrased) - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith commentary.

Yoda lost, no questions asked.

Violetsaber