Official Title Announced!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by IwasIamyoda10, Aug 6, 2001.

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  1. Sebulba49 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 1999
    star 1
    First of all, I like the title. It's deliberate cheesiness is amusing and appropriate considering Star Wars is about entertainment. Yes, there is mythology and a touch of religion with a dash or morals thrown in, but above all things, this story is about love...err, entertainment.

    Secondly, how would you nay-sayers feel if the title was Star Wars: Episode II - The Clones Attack? It's the same thing only with (perhaps) slightly less camp. What do you think?
  2. Scott_Hunter Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    WELL THAT SUCKED.

    I went to post my reply and the damn forum lost it - I should have highlighted and copied the body of the message; now its lost.

    Explaining The Force was some kind of anal TNG style attempt to define & bottle that which should have remained insubstantial and abstract as established so well in the first 3 movies. We need not understand why bloodlines pass on ability, nor how The Force actually works. This was perfect contrast to the technology of Star Wars, and it served admirably as the basis for heroism and villainy in the story, rather than as the basis for biomedical chemistry.

    Alec Guiness never once mentioned these silly microbes that are/may be in some way/facilitate Force/Force usage because *he didn`t NEED to*. Ever.

    I pity those people (if any...!) that saw the first 3 movies and felt this yawning chasmic need for a more scientific explanation.

    Its bad movie-making - Lucas sabotaged one of his own best and established ideas.

    .

    As for reading about these microbes (whatever the Hell they`re called), no thanks. If such work was so enlightening then why didn`t Lucas include it in his damn movie? No: that`s just fans offering up vindicative excuses for a profound error after-the-fact. Had Lucas never made the error in the first place, nobody would have to be concerned with desperately trying to not dislike the movie for it.
  3. Scott_Hunter Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    I wonder when it will strike Palpatine to kidnap Yoda, drain his blood, then give his followers "Force Power" transfusions...
  4. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    "As for reading about these microbes (whatever the Hell they`re called), no thanks. If such work was so enlightening then why didn`t Lucas include it in his damn movie? No: that`s just fans offering up vindicative excuses for a profound error after-the-fact. Had Lucas never made the error in the first place, nobody would have to be concerned with desperately trying to not dislike the movie for it. "

    The nature of TPM is such that it is impossible to say that midichlorians are not a set up. It might not be a mistake at all but, instead, a brilliant stroke. Consider this. Midichlorians are genetic and you're an evil chancellor who needs an army. Wouldn't you try to give them SOME force ability maybe? So let's say you clone them with the midichlorians present only ... something's not working. They don't HAVE any force ability. Thus we've disproved that midichlorians actually DO anything. And we're back to the old science versus spirituality theme of the OT that yoda is always espousing. "luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter." This does NOT seem that Yoda is going in for the whole midichlorians angle. Maybe the jedi order is taught a lesson in episode II. They were relying to much on SCIENCE.

    This, of course, is just a huge amount of speculation. But I think there are some things in episode one that we can't see how good they are right now. Consider at the end of empire when luke calls out to leia. This is a HUGE clue as to what's going to happen in Rotj but it doesn't make sense in ESB. Why did leia hear him? Before all he could reach was his father.

    -Tristan

    -Tristan
  5. Blue_Viper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2001
    star 1
    I agree with scott hunter. What makes star wars so great is that it doesn't need to explain every technical detail of this universe for us to enjoy it. We don't need to know how starships, hyperdrives, blasters, lightsabers, or AT-ATs need to work. They just do.

    As for midichlorians, I'm still in the middle. If it's being done as a setup for something later (like with clones or fall of the jedi), then that's fine. If it's just to tell us why anakin is 'the chosen one' or how jedi work, then it's not needed.
  6. JediDa-cam18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 4
    Well in a way the midichlorians do deal with the fall of the jedi and the Return of the Jedi which is the balance of the force.

    The Midichlorians conceived Anakin Skywalker to be their savior against the Sith who would rise again to ultimately destroy the Jedi. Anakin in turning back to the lightside was able to defeat the Emperor and end the Sith reign. And having a son, Luke, a new line of jedi could be trained hence the Return of the Jedi.

    Maybe Midichlorians was added to explain how a Jedi is found at a early age as well as finding out how Anakin was the chosen one, who knows.

    Im sure more will be explained but it seems to work well enough.

  7. Scott_Hunter Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    When Darth Vader came up in behind Luke Skywalker in Star Wars (over the trench of the Death Star) he didn`t need a 'Midichlorian blood count' to know that, "The Force is strong with this one... ."

    To identify Anakin as a powerful wielder of The Force, how about just having Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan ***sense*** it??!?? They were within 5 measely feet of the kid. Would that not have been far more sensible and acceptable than some ridiculous blood count? This is Star Wars, not a roadside breathalizer from an episode of Cops.

    .

    Once again, dear Mr. Lucas, if you are privy to these discussions, please consider re-editting Phantom Menace so that the 'Midichlorian' taint is expunged; if any film deserved to be re-editted or re-mastered, this circumstance marks Phantom Menace as Thee premiere candidate. Perhaps Liam Neeson and that Obi-Wan guy (can`t recall his name) would agree to a few brief retakes.
  8. JediDa-cam18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 4
    To identify Anakin as a powerful wielder of The Force, how about just having Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan ***sense*** it??!??

    Good point, I think Qui-Gon actually did sense it but took the midichlorian count to make sure what he sensed of Anakin being the Chosen one was correct...I know I know hes a jedi he doesnt need to make sure.

    I think the main reason midichlorians was added was to signify how special Anakin was. So special he would be conceived by the midichlorians end the Sith reign and bring a about a new age of jedi.

    I guess you could say he was concieved by the force but that wouldnt work really since the force is an energy feild generated by all living things throughout the galaxy. The average person cannot get in touch with force like the jedi can. The only reason they can is because the midichlorians make it possible.
  9. Sebulba49 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 1999
    star 1
    I too am "on the fence" about the Midis. They don't really serve an impotant purpose in TPM. All they do is:

    1.) reaffirms that symbiotic relationships are cool.... I think all the people that care got this earlier in the movie.

    2.) show Anakin's talent. As some have already mentioned, this could have been accomplished by simply saying:

    "With all due respect, I have never ecountered a life form so strong it the Force. It is possible that he was conceived by the it."

    Or later on the Queen's ship after the escape from Tatooine:

    "You're right, master. The Force is strong with him...even more so than with Master Yoda!"

    See - same result, slightly different scripting, no outrage. I like it.

    I can only hope that these strange Force bugs will have a purpose in future episodes. Otherwise axe the particularly painful Midi exhibition on Coruscant. I see something along the lines of:

    "Always remember, your focus determines your reality."

    "Master...."

    Pan to R2 while the dialog fades away. Insert scene where he gets knocked off the platform. After he recovers, pan back to Anakin and Qui-Gon as the conversation slowly fades back into the mix.

    "I don't understand."

    "Don't worry, Ani. With time and training, you will. You will."

    The scene continues as before.
  10. JediDa-cam18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 4
    "With all due respect, I have never ecountered a life form so strong it the Force. It is possible that he was conceived by the it."

    Uhhh are you saying that Anakin was conceived by the force, how does that work, then your basically saying the force is some kinda life form which its not.

  11. Sebulba49 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 1999
    star 1
    What are you saying it is? What lifts the X-wing? Are you telling me that (children, avert your eyes) the Midis actually fertilized Shmi's ova? I think not.
  12. JediDa-cam18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 4
    What are you saying it is? What lifts the X-wing?

    Im simply saying the force is not a lifeform, everyone should know that, if the force was a lifeform than we wouldnt be complaining over midichlorians and how cheesy it is, since the force is not a lifeform it would be impossible for Anakin to be conceived by the force, it doesnt work. The force is simply an energy feild created by all living things throughout the galaxy and the midichlorians are the only lifeforms in the galaxy that can manipulate the force and use its power, but can only do so with a host. So the midichlorians make it possible for a jedi to manipulate the force to do stuff like lift a X-wing.

    Are you telling me that (children, avert your eyes) the Midis actually fertilized Shmi's ova? I think not

    Very descriptive but yeah, who knows, i choose to wait till i see the next 2 episodes before i jump to any conclusions of how Anakin was conceived.

  13. Sebulba49 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 1999
    star 1
    No, the force is not a life form. However, it does possess some abilities usually associated with lifeforms.

    a.)It can lift things with purpose. Yes, I realize the wind can lift a leaf, a box or even a house, but the wind doesn't go at it saying, "Cool house! I'll take one of those!"

    b.)The force has a will. It wants things to happen. It makes things happen. In our world, we only have proof of lifeforms doing so. In the Star Wars world, aside from the force, only lifeforms and droids do.

    You say that the midichlorians are responsible for Anakin's conception. I do not dispute this. According to Qui-Gon and the prophecy, this is exactly so. What I do dispute is the notion that the Force could not conceive Anakin according to our knowledge of it in the OT.

    You say, "That's impossible." (I'm tempted to say, "That is why you fail.") I say, "How can you say something is impossible in a universe of sentient droids, engergy sheilds, lightsabers, the Force and sound in space? Do not be so quick to limit the potential of the Force.

    Personally, if it where up to me, Anakin would just be a regular Joe in a fantastic universe. He makes some bad choices, is corrupted and is eventually redeemed by his son. This, to me, is modern myth: people like us doing extraodinary things.
  14. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    Personally, if it where up to me, Anakin would just be a regular Joe in a fantastic universe. He makes some bad choices, is corrupted and is eventually redeemed by his son. This, to me, is modern myth: people like us doing extraodinary things.

    Blah! What? I guess this may be modern myth but Star Wars is not based on modern myth. Anakin is a Hercules or Achilles. A demigod and Luke is his son. They're not just ordinary people. But they START OUT as such. Simple farmers, slaves. That's how we identify with them.

    -JWAC
  15. JediDa-cam18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 4
    You say, "That's impossible." (I'm tempted to say, "That is why you fail.") I say, "How can you say something is impossible in a universe of sentient droids, engergy sheilds, lightsabers, the Force and sound in space? Do not be so quick to limit the potential of the Force.

    I see where your coming from in saying that the OT had a mystical way about it where no scientific explantion is needed. But the simple fact is the force is not a life form thus Anakin cannot be conceived from it. The force is clearly explained in ANH and TESB and not a thing points to it being a life form, only that it is a natural and mystical energy feild generated by life and flows throughout the galaxy.

    Blah! What? I guess this may be modern myth but Star Wars is not based on modern myth. Anakin is a Hercules or Achilles. A demigod and Luke is his son. They're not just ordinary people. But they START OUT as such. Simple farmers, slaves. That's how we identify with them

    Exactly, and what better way for an unordinary person to rise up and bring about the end of the sith and the return of the Jedi like Anakin then to be conceived specifically for that purpose. In order for Anakin to be conceived you must have a intelligent presence to do so, which is where the midichlorians come into play, the only life form in the galaxy able to manipulate the force. So the way i look at while it may sound to unmystical for most it is essential.

  16. Sebulba49 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 1999
    star 1
    It really comes down to a difference of opinons. You guys share Lucas' opinions on this, so you get what you want. (You lucky dogs!)

    Again, I ask you why can a thing labeled as not being a life form lift something or have a will and not be able to conceive a being.

    If we are going to limit a fantasy environment with our scientific rules, the Midichlorians can't have conceived Anakin because their DNA must surely be incompatible with Shmi's. Furthermore, even if a being was conceived, he would surely be sterile, which unless it is revealed that Luke and Leia are clones, I think we can all agree that this is not the case.

    By the way, there are numerous quotes detailing how Lucas is creating a modern myth. I'm sure some more knowlegeble forumites can back me up on this.

    For me at least, part of the draw of the OT was the average farm boy rising up to do great things. In TPM this is not the case: rather, we are presented with the ordinary slave boy who just happens to be the Chosen One, conceived by the Midichlorians to become the most powerful Jedi ever and end the rule of the Sith and bring balance to the Force. :D
  17. JediDa-cam18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 4
    Again, I ask you why can a thing labeled as not being a life form lift something or have a will and not be able to conceive a being

    Well for one thing the force is not a "thing" the force is what it is. And the force does not lift things, a jedi who uses and manipulates the force lifts things, And whoever said the force had a will, dont remember hearing that one.

    If we are going to limit a fantasy environment with our scientific rules

    Dont know where that came from, im just simply stating what the force is as explained in the OT, if you think thats scientific then i have no idea why your complaining over midichlorians.
  18. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    sure lucas is creating *A* modern myth but it's not BASED on modern myth it's based on OLD myth. Modern myth is too cynical.

    -Tristan
  19. SHINOBIWANKENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Okay, the whole Midi's thing is done to death. Here is a major important thing to think about. What George writes is how it went down. I know some of you people refuse to believe Star Wars is nothing more than a movie. Some of you believe Star Wars is real. Well, since some of you can't get a grip on reality, I am going to humor you. Can I say, "man Lee Harvey Oswald should have shot a rocket launcher at Kennedy, not a 22", "we should change it so that Kennedy does get shot with a rocket launcher, it will make history better"...do you see the analogy for the complaints some of you have?

    Why the hell is it okay for us to believe that the Force runs strong in the Skywalker family, but we can't explain how? George is making these last 3 movies as part of the saga. He wants to explain everything before he dies and the Star Wars movies are done and gone. he is going to explain hw the jedi were trained, he is goign to explain how Anakin becomes Darth Vader, he is going to explain some aspects of the force. The force is still just as wierd and unexplained as ever, the only thing he did was cover the plot hole on why the force is strong with the Skywalker's. It is so simple, but some people just need to complain.

    Warning, if you are so worried about lucas explaining all this stuff, then don't go see Episode 2 and 3. Nuff said!
  20. Sebulba49 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 1999
    star 1
    Okay, I have replied to posts with the utmost courtesey and your attacking me is less than appreciated, so CUT IT OUT! Some of us are having a friendly discussion regarding Midis.

    If you knew me, you would know that I am a huge proponent of the SW is just a movie philosophy. Obviously, you don't know me, so your attack was not only rude but completely ignorant. Congratulations.

    Now then....

    What do you consider to me modern myth? The only one I can really think of is LOTR, and that is far from true cynicism.

    Why is there a plot hole regarding inherited Force ability. We were told this happens in ROTJ, and I have never known anyone to say, "But how?! Why?!" This reverts back to the so-called "Star Trek mentality" where everything must be explained. I personally don't need a annotated skematic of an X-wing to realize that an X-wing is a cool ship that flies through space.

    By the way, the will of the Force is mentioned in EpI. "They constantly speak to us, telling us the will of the Force."

    Okay, let's argue grammar. The word "force" (used in SW as "the Force") is a noun, right? Now, there are only four possible things that can be a noun: a person, a place, a thing, an idea. I believe can all agree that the Force is not a person nor a place, and I for one believe it is more substancial than a simple idea; therefore, it is a thing. If you can adequately explain why this is not true, then I take this back, but as it stands, the Force is a thing.

    You say: "But the simple fact is the force is not a life form thus Anakin cannot be conceived from it."

    I say: We can't "limit a fantasy environment with our scientific rules...."

    Does my comment make a little more sense like this?

    You say; "And the force does not lift things, a jedi who uses and manipulates the force lifts things...."

    Luke says: "You mean it controls your actions?" [or something like that]

    Obi-wan says: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

    Yoda commands the Force to lift the ship, but the Force controls Yoda's mind to tap into the Force which lifts the ship.

    Why is it harder to believe that a willful, controlling sentience with physical manifestations can conceive a being than it is to think that microscopic organisms impregnated a creature with separate and wholly different DNA resulting in a normal, fetile child? I will not say that I find one easier to accept that the other, just that one is easier to put down on film. Who was it that said the path with least resistance is usually the correct one?

    [SIDE NOTE: Then again, I just finished reading "Brave New World" - an awesome book, you really should read it - where the author states that the easiest path is not always the right one.]

    Finally, it should be noted that no one here is arguing that Midis do not exist or that George Lucas shouldn't have created them. We are simply debating whether or not they were neccessary.
  21. DarthDorante Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 1
    Richard Roeper said anyone who is angered by this title is a total loser and I agree. I know people who's lives are seriously ruined cause they don't like the title. RUINED! They are freaking out and crying and petitioning etc. Good lord if you're letting a series of movies run your life then you're insane.
  22. Sebulba49 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 1999
    star 1
    And to a greater degree, if you're letting a title ruin a series of moives, you're insane.
  23. JediDa-cam18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 4
    By the way, the will of the Force is mentioned in EpI. "They constantly speak to us, telling us the will of the Force

    Yes, but I dont think they meant "will" in the intelliegnt life form sense, more like the code or the way of the force.

    We can't "limit a fantasy environment with our scientific rules...."

    True, perhaps thats the appeal of the OT, but if we are to assume the force is a lifeform in the PT then a explanation would be needed based on that we only knew the force as natural and mystical and not a lifeform.


    Luke says: "You mean it controls your actions?" [or something like that]

    Obi-wan says: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."


    Well i look at the force as kinda like a car, now when driving a car it obeys your commands but it also controls your actions, does it make the car a lifeform.

    Finally, it should be noted that no one here is arguing that Midis do not exist or that George Lucas shouldn't have created them. We are simply debating whether or not they were neccessary

    I agree, but i also agree that the midichlorians are neccessary for the simple fact of Anakin being conceived, if he is to be a unordinary person its the best route to take, and since we a need a intelligent lifeform to do so midichlorians are needed but Lucas was also able to add them in a way that connects them to the force and Jedis as well.




  24. Obi Quiet Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 1999
    star 1
    I wish this whole midichlorian/will of the Force thing was a thread unto itself. Actually, it was many threads unto themselves about two years go.

    The way I imagine the story going, my guess will be that some of the things Qui-Gon believed will prove to be wrong. My guess is that the reason GL introduced Midichlorians is BECAUSE Qui-Gon was putting too much emphasis on them. And the same with Qui-Gon being so focused "on the moment" rather than being "mindful of the future" as Obi-Wan says Yoda told him to be.

    Perfect illustration of my point...Qui-Gon says Anakin has "Jedi reflexes" because he can see the future, see things before they happen. Yet Qui-Gon's focus is always on "the moment" because he's waiting for the "living Force" to tell him what to do. AND, because of that, his reflexes WEREN'T as sharp as they needed to be and allowed Darth Maul to ventillate him.

    Obi-Wan becomes a greater Jedi than Qui-Gon at least partially because he has a better-balanced approach to what the Force is. I'm just guessing, but I think Qui-Gon's emphasis on midis and the "living Force" was part of his problem. I'm not saying GL will debunk those concepts in Eps. II and III, I'm just saying they were plot devices to help illustrate Qui-Gon's flaws.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
  25. Darth Angst Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2000
    star 2
    Attack of the Clones?

    Attack of the Clones??

    ATTACK OF THE CLONES!??????!.......

    Mark Hamill said that he thought he could have gone for a loftier word like Battle of the Clones. Battle for the Clones sounds good to me.

    Maybe Uncle George is trying to separate the fans from the non-fans once and for all. Im going to log off and find a nice girl.
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