Official Traitor thread. (poss. spoilers)

This is what is so fundamentally different: Having Jedi use the Force in anger, hatred, and revenge without consequence, without being considered darksiders. Having Jedi use Force lightning and still not be dark.
Having Jedi 'joyfully' kill others. That purposely using angry emotion to become more powerful as Jacen did to help the girl is okay. I consider all of those things and many others to be 'fundamentally different'. It doesn't matter anymore if a person acts in anger or hate as long as the end is worthwhile. The means no longer matters. That's fundamentally different.

When does Vergere say there are no darksiders? Darksiders do not have to be defined as using the darkside of the force. They can be defined as using the force in a dark way(using hatred and aggression to get what they want). Its all semantics which if you notice can also be defined as seeing things from a certain point of view, which Mr. Lucas has focused on since the first movie.

 

A Smuggler's Spin...
"Ghengis... Just so you'll stop I didn't read your post. I will not answer a single question you pose. I do not read a single post you write. Why?"

Because it seems that holding people accountable for what they post is considered "inflaming" remarks by you, it seems. Although I do have to note your lie. I never called you a terrorist. What I did was use a traditional simile, actually giving you a complement in that in traditional simile form, I acknowledged a comparison between two wholly unlike things. The fact that you missed it isn't my problem. But, don't attack me for your mistake.

"I have read the prequel novels and truly have liked every single one of them. They were different, without being so far out there that you could have taken the plots and characters and transplanted them into the Star Trek universe like the NJO is."

NJO is still set in the GFFA. I think you've confused your novels.

"Many of the NJO Critics have moved on and stopped reading."

Probably the best use of their time. If they hate something and have made up their mind that they will hate something, then they shouldn't be doing something they hate for "enjoyment." The whole issue - they have a different opinion of what Star Wars should be than the current mega-series being published by Del Rey. How's that any major issue? People said that Empire Strikes Back was different from ANH. People said ROTJ was different from either one. People said TPM was different from any of the preceeding three. People said AotC is different from the movie preceeding it. So, NJO is a 19(+/- including ebook "novellas") novel mega-series. Nothing like it has been attempted with Star Wars novels before. There's bound to be a couple of people who don't agree with it.

ChildOfWinds...
"Whatever happened to the fun in Star Wars?"

You tell me. You seem to be one who hasn't been able to find it there, unlike other people.

"It certainly isn't fun to read about the graphic torture of a teenager or the pain of slaves."

It seems you have forgotten the roots of the epic hero - the protagonist. There's a reason protAGONist, has as one of its roots "agony." "Agony" essentially being the violent and intense struggle. "Prot" being the positive force. "Ist" being one who does. Put the word together and you have the hero who endures the violent and intense struggle. There's some great essays on this subject in the mythology section of your local bookstore.

Traitor has truly made Jacen the protagonist-to-end-all-protagonists.

Fundamentally, at its core foundation, the story of Traitor is nothing more than a traditional fantasy-adventure character study (Sorry, Matt. IMO, it's true).

"This is what is so fundamentally different: Having Jedi use the Force in anger..."

Which Jedi did that. Jacen? Vergere? These two characters are no longer Jedi. The only other Jedi in the novel was Ganner - a character who relied entirely on the traditional "Jedi Way" to follow Jacen's instruction to be all he can be.

"Having Jedi 'joyfully' kill others. That purposely using angry emotion to become more powerful as Jacen did to help the girl is okay. I consider all of those things and many others to be 'fundamentally different'. It doesn't matter anymore if a person acts in anger or hate as long as the end is worthwhile. The means no longer matters. That's fundamentally different."

For the Jedi, the traditional dichotomy between good and evil - the Light Side and the Dark Side - still remain. We have no idea what to make of Jacen's newfound inspiration as of yet. Jacen has given up the Jedi Way and has found his own way - Vergere's way. What matters to Jacen is that the galaxy survives. He will debate the morality of that later, it seems. And after the threat is ended, and the galaxy is saved, I'm sure we will see what the effects of this new perspective have done to Jacen. He's made the decision to be able to have that discussion later on - with someone living who

 

Just finished Traitor this morning.

I liked how Jacen's character has developed. The recent books have neglected his empathic skills, but traitor took full advantage. Vergere's character is seems clearer now, but who knows if this is a grand plan to subvert the Jedi.

I have enjoyed the NJO but I will admit to growing a bit tired of all of the gore related to the Vong. The smells and fluids emitted by the Vong life are too well described in the books. Like many other readers, I will be glad when the Vong crisis is settled.

With that said, I'm not going to stop reading. I will endure the gore for more well-told stories such as Stover's Traitor.

Can't wait for DW!

 

Anakin...

You think I spend 24/7 on the boards? I don't. I do other things too.

Ghengis...

Anyone who can equate posting about a book to the actions of a group of terrorist has a reality that I do not care to experiance. Whether you call it a simple technique or not. It was incredably offensive, and your behavior for the year before that wasn't much better. And yes my mind is closed to that. Instead of getting in your face and fighting you every inch I have chosen the option to simply not read your thoughts. A futile gesture for sure because it affects no one but myself. It won't change how you are viewed by the moderators or the rest of the forums, or the authors who post here. It simply keeps me away from you. Take it or leave it.

Kreaduar...i think i spelled that wrong

What is evil? Evil to everyone is of course difference. Moral codes are different. To me performing an act to accomplish something that can be accomplished in some other way just because it's easier, faster, or more efficient is evil. Many, many, many people disagree with me, and i'm cool with that. I don't expect anyone else to hold to my views.

Why do the Vong exist outside the Force? I believe Stover's explanation is the most logical, and what I believe myself. They don't. They simple exist in a part of the Force that Jedi are not able, or trained to detect.

The Jedi aren't all knowing and all powerful. Thing do change and evolve. All I have said was I didn't like the fact that the two leading Jedi (Jacen and Jaina) are now followers of this belief. It changes everything that Luke has ever thought. Everything that I have ever read. It makes the Force simply a tool. What you do with it is what matters. It's no longer a mystical field that guides you. Because what you do with it doesn't matter. The ends justify the means, and I simply disagree with that.

 

Your poorly veiled insults are quite amusing I must say.

Basically, Ghengis and Mr. Stover have said everything I was thinking of posting so I'll just reconfirm my support of what they've said.

 

Anakin...

There are no insults. I do not spend 24/7 on this board. I had no idea Mr. Stover was around when I posted my response previous to your "split" post. Sometimes I don't have an hour to spend and wait for a response. Sometimes I do. At the time I posted and then went shopping as in Texas this weekend was Tax Free clothes shopping. I wasn't here to respond. When I had the the time I came back. What's the big deal?

 

A Smuggler's Spin...
Lies, but no insults.

"Ghengis...
Anyone..."

If you need an English Lit. class, I'd be happy to bill you for my time. You show you lack any idea of what a simile is. Technique or not, you've given an outright lie, as I never called you a terrorist.

If nothing else, at least keep your facts straight before attacking someone. That's all I ask, and I don't think it's too much to ask for.

 

What is evil? Evil to everyone is of course difference. Moral codes are different. To me performing an act to accomplish something that can be accomplished in some other way just because it's easier, faster, or more efficient is evil. Many, many, many people disagree with me, and i'm cool with that. I don't expect anyone else to hold to my views.


If you don't expect anyone else to hold your views, why do you come here and tell us we're NJO "gushers?" Aren't you telling us that as NJO critics you're right? I don't have a problem w/ you asserting your views, just admit that when someone else doesn't hold your view, you get upset.

 

Vergere was pretty shocked and saddened when she found out that little Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader one of the last Sith Lords,she even said it was a waste, i think that she was just sad to learn that anakin had become one of them because as a trained jedi she knew what the Sith were and how they used the force.

Mr.Stover, why was Vergere shocked when she learned about Anakin?

 

I do not believe I have said I was right. My thoughts are my own. I do not speak for anyone but myself, and I do not proclaim that I am never wrong. I did not mean to say anyone was a gusher. I refered to myself as a whiner, and obvioulsy I do not consider myself one. I believed it would be seen as I was making fun of the term.

I would ask that you not read my posts as a definitive truth. They are my opinions. I've been wrong before, and I am sure I shall be wrong again.

I read a book. My thoughts do not correspond with a majority of the people who have posted in this thread. I think that my thoughts are just as valid as other peoples thoughts. I want those who post here, those that read here, and those who might later on shape the Star Wars universe.

Is there something wrong with letting people know that I did not like it?

I'm not coming in saying "MY GOD YOU ARE ALL FRIGGEN IDIOTS BECAUSE YOU LIKE THIS BOOK!" I came in saying that I did not believe that this was a good STAR WARS book. I put out my general feelings on why I didn't like it. I also said I thought Stover's descriptions were top notch, some of the best I have ever read. I appreciate how Stover described and told the function of some of the Vong technology. The clip beetles, and the world brains. Thought that was all great. One of my main complaints about the NJO is that the Vong technology is rarely explained. It is just used. Stover took a large step forward in describing how Vong tech is grown, and first used, etc etc. That is great.

So yes overall I thought this book wasn't a good Star Wars book. Perhaps if it had been in some other universe I would have enjoyed it imensly. I pointed out what I thought was good in it.

I'm not sure what else you want out of me other than to just go away because I didn't like the book.

edit: added some text

 

Genghis:
You're wrong on the account. Luke wasn't scolded because of trying to save his wife and son. Luke was scolded for trying to play the gardener - calling down the full power of the Force to utterly and completely wipe out something he thought of as a weed.

And a malignant DISEASE that is killing his wife and child is NOT a weed? If Jacen can play the gardener, why can't Luke? I think saving the flowers (his wife and son) from the weed of the disease sounds like a pretty good choice to me.

As this is NOT the Jedi Way, Luke was rightfully scolded by his Jedi peers. He was a Jedi who allowed his emotions to run wild on him, with destructive results

Okay, THIS is what bothers me the most about TRAITOR: Why will ANYONE want to be a Jedi after this book? If a person can't wield the Force using his/her emotions, whether light or dark because of Jedi rules and the Jedi code, but a person CAN wield the Force (and be stronger!) by using his/her emotions but just declaring he/she is no longer a Jedi, why would anyone choose to remain a Jedi? There's far less worry and less chance of ulcers by NOT being a Jedi. One can actually enjoy Force usage by not being a Jedi.

Genghis:
He was nagged because what he was doing was wrong. As a Jedi, it is NOT okay to attack people in anger or hatred and enjoy destroying life. This is no different.

Luke wasn't attacking a person. He was attacking an ILLNESS. There IS a difference. He was defending his family against it. I find it very unfair that he should be condemned for this, but
that Ganner could kill 'joyfully' and Jacen could kill in anger and it's okay, because they're not really Jedi anymore.

So I'll repeat my question: Why would anyone choose to be a Jedi and conform to a lot of rules and codes when that person could have even more power by just not being a Jedi but just calling himself/herself a Force wielder and following Vergere and Jacen instead of Luke and all of his rules?

 

Genghis:
You're wrong on the account. Luke wasn't scolded because of trying to save his wife and son. Luke was scolded for trying to play the gardener - calling down the full power of the Force to utterly and completely wipe out something he thought of as a weed.

And a malignant DISEASE that is killing his wife and child is NOT a weed? If Jacen can play the gardener, why can't Luke? I think saving the flowers (his wife and son) from the weed of the disease sounds like a pretty good choice to me.

As this is NOT the Jedi Way, Luke was rightfully scolded by his Jedi peers. He was a Jedi who allowed his emotions to run wild on him, with destructive results

Okay, THIS is what bothers me the most about TRAITOR: Why will ANYONE want to be a Jedi after this book? If a person can't wield the Force using his/her emotions, whether light or dark because of Jedi rules and the Jedi code, but a person CAN wield the Force (and be stronger!) by using his/her emotions but just declaring he/she is no longer a Jedi, why would anyone choose to remain a Jedi? There's far less worry and less chance of ulcers by NOT being a Jedi. One can actually enjoy Force usage by not being a Jedi.

Genghis:
He was nagged because what he was doing was wrong. As a Jedi, it is NOT okay to attack people in anger or hatred and enjoy destroying life. This is no different.

Luke wasn't attacking a person. He was attacking an ILLNESS. There IS a difference. He was defending his family against it. I find it very unfair that he should be condemned for this, but
that Ganner could kill 'joyfully' and Jacen could kill in anger and it's okay, because they're not really Jedi anymore.

So I'll repeat my question: Why would anyone choose to be a Jedi and conform to a lot of rules and codes when that person could have even more power by just not being a Jedi but just calling himself/herself a Force wielder and following Vergere and Jacen instead of Luke and all of his rules?

 

Genghis:
You're wrong on the account. Luke wasn't scolded because of trying to save his wife and son. Luke was scolded for trying to play the gardener - calling down the full power of the Force to utterly and completely wipe out something he thought of as a weed.

And a malignant DISEASE that is killing his wife and child is NOT a weed? If Jacen can play the gardener, why can't Luke? I think saving the flowers (his wife and son) from the weed of the disease sounds like a pretty good choice to me.

As this is NOT the Jedi Way, Luke was rightfully scolded by his Jedi peers. He was a Jedi who allowed his emotions to run wild on him, with destructive results

Okay, THIS is what bothers me the most about TRAITOR: Why will ANYONE want to be a Jedi after this book? If a person can't wield the Force using his/her emotions, whether light or dark because of Jedi rules and the Jedi code, but a person CAN wield the Force (and be stronger!) by using his/her emotions but just declaring he/she is no longer a Jedi, why would anyone choose to remain a Jedi? There's far less worry and less chance of ulcers by NOT being a Jedi and ENJOYING Force usage.

Genghis:
He was nagged because what he was doing was wrong. As a Jedi, it is NOT okay to attack people in anger or hatred and enjoy destroying life. This is no different.

Luke wasn't attacking a person. He was attacking an ILLNESS. There IS a difference. He was defending his family against it. I find it very unfair that he should be condemned for this, but
that Ganner could kill 'joyfully' and Jacen could kill in anger and it's okay, because they're not really Jedi anymore.

So I'll repeat my question: Why would anyone choose to be a Jedi and conform to a lot of rules and codes when that person could have even more power by just not being a Jedi but still wielding the Force?

 

Child of Winds; Boy, when you say you're gonna repeat a question, you sure aren't kidding!

Heheheh, couldn't resist that!

 

A Smuggler's Spin...
"I do not believe I have said I was right... I would ask that you not read my posts as a definitive truth."

There's an understatement. For one of the few times around here, I actually agree with you 100%.


Child of Winds...
"And a malignant DISEASE that is killing his wife and child is NOT a weed? If Jacen can play the gardener, why can't Luke?"

Because Luke is not only a Jedi, but a Jedi Master. Hence, he is essentially required to conform to the philosophy and teachings of the Jedi. Jacen is not. Hence, no need to conform to anything.

"I think saving the flowers (his wife and son) from the weed of the disease sounds like a pretty good choice to me."

What gives Luke the right to make the decision that the flowers are flowers and the weeds are weeds?

"Okay, THIS is what bothers me the most about TRAITOR: Why will ANYONE want to be a Jedi after this book? If a person can't wield the Force using his/her emotions, whether light or dark because of Jedi rules and the Jedi code, but a person CAN wield the Force (and be stronger!) by using his/her emotions but just declaring he/she is no longer a Jedi, why would anyone choose to remain a Jedi?"

? So, "power" is everything? Some people still believe in morality and ethics. Some people still believe the ends do not justify the means. Some people still believe that the Force should only be used for knowledge and defense. In short, some people still believe in the traditional Jedi foundations.

Just because a new religion comes along, it doesn't mean everyone up and converts to it.

"Luke wasn't attacking a person. He was attacking an ILLNESS. There IS a difference."

In terms of "life," no real substantial one. One life is a bit more complex than the other. If a Jedi is a defender of all life in the galaxy, then he was attacking life, not defending a life.

However, this is actually a side issue. The problems were with Luke's actions and not anything else. The target could have been a doorknob, and Luke's actions would still have been un-Jedi-like, which is the whole point of why he was scolded.

"He was defending his family against it. I find it very unfair that he should be condemned for this, but
that Ganner could kill 'joyfully' and Jacen could kill in anger and it's okay, because they're not really Jedi anymore."

And there's your confusion - you keep changing terms around. Either subconsciously, or planned that way. Luke was calling down the full power of the Force to attack the disease - something which is taboo for a Jedi. He was scolded for it. Nothing says a Jedi cannot kill. A Jedi can kill in defense. Ganner killed in defense - the Vong were attacking him. That's the difference.

Jacen doesn't matter, because he's not a Jedi anymore. Why do you keep trying to hold him to ideals which he doesn't believe in and trying to hold others to ideals that they don't believe in.

Luke = Jedi
Jacen = not

"So I'll repeat my question: Why would anyone choose to be a Jedi and conform to a lot of rules and codes when that person could have even more power by just not being a Jedi but still wielding the Force?"

Because people still believe in the Jedi Way. Would it be easier for a soldier to carpet bomb every living thing in Afghanistan, killing innocents along with the terrorists so that the terrorists are killed? Sure. But, some people still believe in higher standards. Would it be easier for cops to go the "shoot-first" route, or beat people to get confessions. Sure. Some people still believe in higher standards.

The good guys do have their hands tied. But, that's what it means to be one of the good guys - holding the higher standard.

Jacen doesn't seem to feel he has that luxury at this time, though. And maybe he's right. It's a lot easier to discuss morality when you're alive.

 

First of all, an apology about the TRIPLE posts. I kept getting an error message, so I kept hitting the send key.

Mr. Stover, I'd just like to say that just because I didn't like your book doesn't mean I'm closed-minded. I start every book hoping to enjoy it. I READ every book. I don't skim. I THINK about what I'm reading. About 95% (at least) of the people here loved your book and raved about it. That's fine. I respect their opinions. I just wish other people would also respect mine.

I'm sorry that I used the word "hated" in my first post. I just finished the book yesterday and I was pretty upset about the content. I'm very passionate about Star Wars. I probably should have waited a day before posting. My feelings are still the same, but I would have put things a little more diplomatically perhaps. Let me say though, that I would give you an 8/10 for technical merit. You wrote a decent book, a much more adult book than many of the NJO books. I just don't like what you've added to the SW galaxy. I don't like the content or tone of your book. For me, it wasn't acceptable SW. For me, this wasn't an enjoyable book. Not at all! So for me, content is a 1/10. Obviously, I'm very much in the minority here, but that doesn't make my opinions wrong. No one's opinions are wrong. It's just our personal reactions to the book. To admit to disliking a book doesn't make a person closed-minded, just honest.

Genghis:
What gives Luke the right to make the decision that the flowers are flowers and the weeds are weeds?

Who gives Jacen the right? Luke is a good person and someone needed to do something before the flowers (Mara and Ben) died. Why not Luke? He was the only one who possibly had a chance to save them. He made a choice. I happen to think it was the correct one and that his 'peers' shouldn't have 'scolded' him for it.


Just because a new religion comes along, it doesn't mean everyone up and converts to it.

Ganner certainly converted quickly. This new way is certainly a LOT easier and comes with far fewer worries. I would think that at least the half of the Jedi who didn't follow Luke's philosophy throughout the NJO (Kyp and Company) will embrace this 'new religion' eagerly. They won't need to worry about their consciences and they can be more powerful.

Genghis:
Luke was calling down the full power of the Force to attack the disease - something which is taboo for a Jedi. He was scolded for it. Nothing says a Jedi cannot kill. A Jedi can kill in defense. Ganner killed in defense - the Vong were attacking him.That's the difference.

There's not really much of a difference. Luke was trying to attack the disease to defend two innocent victims: his wife and son. He too was killing in defense.

You and I will just need to agree to disagree about this, Genghis.

Luke is the ONLY one that authors and SW fans keep bringing up the dark side with whenever he uses a human emotion. Leia has attacked in anger and with revenge in mind, but no one ever calls that 'dark' or wrong for her. Why do it for Luke? Let the guy be human once in a while without putting him on a guilt trip.

Jacen doesn't matter, because he's not a Jedi anymore. Why do you keep trying to hold him to ideals which he doesn't believe in and trying to hold others to ideals that they don't believe in.
Luke = Jedi
Jacen = not

It seems to be VERY easy to leave the Jedi way. Jacen and Ganner did it pretty quickly. I still see a mass exodus of Jedi knights in the future. This new philosophy just makes things too easy not to be attractive to many, I believe, especially because I think Jacen is destined to be the superhero of the NJO. What Jedi isn't going to want to follow in the footsteps of this new hero and his new philosophy?

 

CoW --

You weren't the one asserting that you weren't even going to read dissenting posts, were you? (Clearly not, given your detailed responses, etc. That was a rhetorical question.) Then what makes you think someone suspects/accuses you of having a closed mind?

Disliking TRAITOR seems to come in several flavors -- as does LIKING it. Don't worry what I (or anyone else) might think of what you think.

Just bear in mind that some things are less cut-and-dried than they first appear.

 

I'll have to admit that I am conflicted over Traitor as well.

My conflict arises not from the novel itself, but from the effect that it could have on the entire SW universe.

First off, I would like to say that this novel was a very positive step in the journey to "mature" SW.(In using the term mature, I mean it in an intellectual sense)It is quite a bold step.

However, I feel that with a couple of "tweaks," this could have been a sequel to a Caine novel. (Although I'll admit that I have not read BoT). The central theme of aggression vs. violence seems to be a conerstone of MWStover's style. This is not a criticsm per se, but I think it's dangerous when dealing with licensed products.

Here lies the foundation of my conflicted feelings. As Caine(the member here, not the character) has pointed out before, I would like to have seen a continual reference to Jacen's emotional struggle in Balance Point. His past agonizing was forgotten. Maybe warfare changes a person, but it seems that Jacen switches his core value system at the drop of a hat. Maybe this will be explored more fully in the future, but I don't think anyone is that conflicted.

The danger of this novel arises with people's potential to misread it. Already, on this forum, people are saying thigs like:
"Yoda and Luke were wrong, Go read Traitor." or:
" There is no darkside, go read Traitor."

It's not that Yoda and Luke were wrong, it's that their perception was different. (I know, this has been debated to death.) Readers are now taking Traitor as "gospel" without realizing that it is a perception issue, not a canon issue.

I personally like the idea of having one aspect of the force, and having the wielder's perception shape how it ends up.

But the fact remains, that this has the potential to destroy everyhting we knew of SW in the past.

The danger lies in not the novel itself, but in the reader's perception. Is Vergere an expert in the force equal in stature to Yoda or the Emperor of the OT? Already SW fandom is changing because of this novel. I hope that this was not an isolated study and that upcoming authors will explore MWStover's issue in greater depth. Please don't let this be an isolated story in the SW continuity...

 

Mr Stover, with all this talk of trancending the duality of Light and Dark nature of the force; it made something in me click.

This brought to mind instantly my Eastern Philosopohy class, and more imoprtantly Zen Buddhisim. One of the aspects of Zen is excepting the whole and trancending dualities of yin and yang. Did any zen works inspire this new "take" of the nature of the force ? Or am I just a guy who read a little too much into this.

Also how does this "new" aspect of the force relate to the great balance that Anakin Skywalker brought to the force? This is where I have issues. If a Balance by what George Lucas has stated was in effect the the Light side being the only side and the explusion of the Dark side(Sidious); then if the force does not take on any particular nature(light/dark) then how is this seen as a balance?

I'm sorry for my poor grammer, I should hvae stated the probelms better.

 

Mr Stover you have misunderstood totally what was said, or did not fully read. I will not read Ghengis posts. His and his alone. I have responded to others points, and am willing to do so again. I ignored you comment simply because I didn't think it worth getting into. You obviously do not know the story behind the difference between myself and Ghengis and therefore I do not expect you to appreciate my protest or reasonings. There is simply an impass between myself and Ghengis. He believes what he did was ok, I believe it was wrong. It's not going to be solved. I however can not forgive him for his actions, and instead of drawing it out into some flame war between him and I, or rushing to make sure evryone on of his posts are countered, I simply choose to ignore him. I don't see that as making me close-minded to anyone but Ghengis.

So yes I am close-minded to Ghengis. No doubt. I could care less about what he has to say, but I do however wish to discuss the book with others I would not be posting if I didn't feel I had something to add.

The overwhelming response in this thread has been positive towards your work. I am not trying to degrade that in any fashion. I don't care to ruin the NJO for those who enjoy it. As I have stated I simply wish to have it known that there are some (NJO Critics and others) who would like something else. Theres a whole other market of Star Wars EU fans that could be tapped if Del Rey so chose. How will they know to tap into it if some of us occasionally do not speak up?

Am I by no means a representation of most star wars fans, just as the people who have given the book a positive spin are not a representation of star wars fans. We on both sides are a selective few of hard core star wars fans who speak vocally about our likes and dislikes. I imagine that there are as many people who are indifferent to the new star wars books as there are those who devourer them days before they are supposed to come out. Isn't the goal to try and make as many fans into the devourer kind as possible?

 

I think of it More like Being a person with powers.

Darksiders Arent Darksiders because of Some Devil made me do it, malevolent energy called the DarkSide.

Its because thy chose to imbrace the darkness in their own souls.

ReRead the page when Jacen blasts Vergere, "If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not beacuse the force has darkness in it. It is beacuse you do"

Surrendering your self to the force is not Bad, their is no darkness in it, As long as you know when to stop. Look at Jacen, And Ganner. Jace had the Power to kill everything in sight but he chose not to. Even though HIS darkside was in controll for a while he maintained enough of himself to restrain his more murderious impulses.
when Ganner Became true to himslef Did he not surpass his previous abilities.

And Zekk. During his Term as a Dark Warrior, He killed when neccessary But dident go overbord, like the Night Sisters, Vader or Kyp. Why is that?


This Is the Exact Same Message in the Cold Fire Trillogy By C.S friedman. It is not the Dark Fay that was evil, because the fay had no sides, The negative thought of the people who used it over the centurise Poluted the fay and created the Drak fay.

 

"There is simply an impass between myself and Ghengis. He believes what he did was ok, I believe it was wrong. It's not going to be solved. I however can not forgive him for his actions,"


I find it sad that people actually talk like this and actually feel this way. On a internet message board. Maybe acting like an adult will help you in dealing with this stuff.

 

Wow, things have really picked up in this thread while Ive been gone...

 

Just posting my thoughts on Traitor. I enjoyed the book greatly, so much so that I read it in six hours. The only two criticsms I would make are that firstly, the passage of time in the book is uncertain. Jacen's journey could feasibly have taken years and is more believable if thought of this way, however, I believe that the passage of time is months and rather than Jacen's training being a quest its more of a daytrip. Secondly, the Ganner in Traitor is unrecognisable from the Ganner in earlier NJO books. He has not been built-up as the joke of the Jedi order and the character I believed Ganner to be was turned into a quite different person in about 20 pages of Traitor.

I wouldn't agree with anyone criticising Ganner's rapid conversion to Jacen's way of thinking. By definition, an epiphany can occur at any moment just some people spend longer looking for that somehting that makes everything clear to them.

I also like the new perception of the Force that has been introduced in Traitor. The whole problem with Star Wars is that everything was placed in binary terms which is oversimplification. Everyone knows that what is good and what is bad is often determined retrospectively. But this does not have to be the end of the Force as its always been understood by Star Wars fans, its just another way of looking at it. The 'single Force' may actually be the wrong philosophy, it may be that no view of the Force is wrong or that all are. Its impossible to know for the characters in the NJO just as its impossible for us to know if there is one 'true' faith in this world. All anyone can do is choose and act, maybe you'll be right, maybe you'll be wrong, who knows?

 

Jacen doesn't matter, because he's not a Jedi anymore. Why do you keep trying to hold him to ideals which he doesn't believe in and trying to hold others to ideals that they don't believe in.

That seems to be the question. Is Jacen a Jedi? Perhaps the answer lay at the end of the book. When Jacen thinks there must be an easier way to learn lessons without pain. A way which Vergere wishes Jacen to find and teach her. A way perhaps which jedi can teach the same lessons which Jacen has learned. If Jacen is searching for this way, this path, perhaps at heart he still is a jedi. The way I have looked upon Traitor is that of a huge beginning chapter, or the first act in a play. The second act will be Jacen and Vergere meeting with the Jedi (Luke in particular) and working to find the right path. The last act will be to follow that path.