Official Traitor thread. (poss. spoilers)

Also for force theroies you can take it that Luke has been the leader of the Jedi for all those years so he has influence on what's taught. Now we're finally hearing from a different point of view.

 

I like the idea lfecteau brought up about letting the Force control you, instead of trying to control the Force.

I have always been bothered by Yoda "hiding" from the Emperor on Dagabah, when he should have been busy fighting the Empire. But just maybe, Yoda was so in tune with the Force that he implicitly trusted it when it led him to remain passive for all those years. And the Force, in its own timing, chose Luke to do what needed to be done.

And just maybe Luke himself has grown so Force-sensitive, that his own passiveness has been a direct result of the Force's guidance. Thus, Luke becomes the Yoda figure, until the Force chooses another or even many others to actively fight.

 

Again, good points.

Yes, I am having fun with this -- but perhaps not the kind of fun you think. I am so impressed with the passion, and the level of thought, expressed on these boards. On all sides of the many questions.

It's really, really cool.

As for Lord Nyax . . .

No comment. Sorry.

I don't comment on events of the EU. As an EU/NJO author, my opinion's prejudicial weight so far overpowers its probitive value that it's best I just keep them to myself.

 

Noghri_ViR, the timespan between the Force well opening and it being stained by Lord Nyax's resonance was very short, IIRC. So it seems to me that if he had arrived before Lord Nyax died, he would have been arriving just in time for the action, and would have noticed all the channeling and rocks being flung around, etc.

So I would say its a pretty good bet that he arrived after Lord Nyax died.

 

Vergere was not willing to go w/ the Vong of her own volition; rather, she was coerced b/c they threatened the planet.

 

The scenes in Traitor that took place on Coruscant must have taken place well after Lord Nyax had died. Remember that the Seedship had not yet arrived at Coruscant during Rebel Stand. Since the Coruscant scenes in Traitor occured after the arrival of the Seedship, this part of the book occurs after these events in Rebel Stand.

What is not as clear is how much time has passed between Rebel Stand and the Coruscant portion of Traitor.

 

You can't call it the Coruscant scene. It is reshaped into something else, now.

 

Good point.

I probably should have said that the Lord Nyax scenes occured on Corscant which became Yuuzhan-tar after the events in Rebel Stand. Therefore, the Yuuzhan-tar scenes in Traitor must have occured well after the death Lord Nyax.

 

Again, good points.

Yes, I am having fun with this -- but perhaps not the kind of fun you think. I am so impressed with the passion, and the level of thought, expressed on these boards. On all sides of the many questions.

It's really, really cool.

As for Lord Nyax . . .

No comment. Sorry.

I don't comment on events of the EU. As an EU/NJO author, my opinion's prejudicial weight so far overpowers its probitive value that it's best I just keep them to myself.

Argh!!!!! I can fell the dark side growing in me now.......oh crap there is no dark side. Damn there better be a damn good explation on all of this before the series is over.

Oh BTW thanks for what I consider the best star wars book to date. It was previously I Jedi for me but Traitor takes the #1 spot

 

Noghri_ViR, the timespan between the Force well opening and it being stained by Lord Nyax's resonance was very short, IIRC. So it seems to me that if he had arrived before Lord Nyax died, he would have been arriving just in time for the action, and would have noticed all the channeling and rocks being flung around, etc.

So I would say its a pretty good bet that he arrived after Lord Nyax died.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah good point. I guessing that the Force well opening up probably caught verge's attention so she probably visited it before Jacen got there and thus knew the location

 

can some one explain this to me. If it is the new jedi order why do they keep killing the new jedi. ganner for example

 

can some one explain this to me. If it is the new jedi order why do they keep killing the new jedi. ganner for example

As good an explanation as any probably comes from G'Kar in Babylon 5...

"The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We only know that it is always born in pain."

 

Is acting like an Adult realizing that nothign can be accomplished and simply leaving it alone?

One of those perception things. From a certain point of view its childlike, from another it's the exact opposite. Side where you will. I'm comfortable where I am.

I have a question about Traitor in reguards to everyones thoughts on whether they believe Jacen's transformation was a permanent one? Will what he learned stick with him or will he decide that he was using the Dark Side while adventuring through Vong ships and planets? And if it is permanent how do you see this affecting the Jedi as a whole?

 

On Vergere...
The sense that I got from Rogue Planet was that it was getting their butts handed to them by Zonoma Sekot which forced the Vong away, not any side deal with Vergere.

I still believe Vergere may have went willingly (not abducted) with the Vong undercover as an intelligence operative. At the time when she went, Vergere was a Jedi - a traditional Jedi. That means that seeking knowledge was one of her main ideals. In the Vong, the galaxy had a new mysterious species of beings never before "seen" in the galaxy by others. I think she saw they were dangerous and sought to uncover more about them.

The Jedi may or may nor have known about her plan. They knew enough about when she disappeared and where she disappeared, but not necessarily the "why." But, whether Jedi reinforcements would/could save her is irrelevent.

I think what Vergere learned while she was with the Vong was that they must be stopped. Not deestroyed, but stopped. And they wouldn't be able to be stopped by her alone. So, she had to wait it out. And waiting it out with the Vong isn't a walk in the park.

I have no idea of whether or not she was broken. But, I do believe that her actions in Traitor are the logical extension of the traditional Jedi we first heard about in Rogue Planet. ...It's just that she's now had some 50 years of the Embrace of Pain to skew her thought processes.

But, it's not like Vergere doesn't know what she's talking about. Vergere taught Jacen the same things which kept her alive under such circumstances. The whole philosophy on life, the universe and everything. It works when you're subjected to the things that Vergere and Jacen had to endure.

Whether it's applicable to people who weren't subjected to such an environment is another matter entirely. Whether it's applicable in peace-time to help further explore the Force and gain knowledge of the universe is another matter entirely. Whether it should become a part of the Jedi manual of standard operating procedure is another matter entirely.

Vergere's way of life works for a harsh, unforgiving environment. The good thing about it, though, is that she realized this and wants to learn (re-learn?) softer ways of doing things.

A Smuggler's Spin...
"I have a question about Traitor in reguards to everyones thoughts on whether they believe Jacen's transformation was a permanent one?

Everyone's thoughts? Jacen has undergone a traumatic, life-altering exerience by anyone's account. In the span of three years, Jacen has...
1. Seen his aunt fall ill...
2. Lost his Wookiee godfather...
3. Seen his sister go blind...
4. Seen his mom almost lose her legs...
5. Lost his brother...

And that's only when the "fun" began. Insert weeks/months of agonizing torture and hellish experiences.

It has nothing to do with his strength of character. Regardless of how strong he is/was, Jacen will never be the same again.

The future possibilities are rather interesting. Is the NEW JEDI order, going to be Jacen's Jedi - wholly seperate from the Jedi Order. They're not Jedi, but "New Jedi" as opposed to new Jedi. Not just a new "Jedi faction." But, an entirely different institution altogether. The goals of Jacen's newfound philosophy may not always coincide with traditional Jedi fundamentals - and in fact, I can see the two coming in direct opposition under certain circumstances as well.

I'm not sure if this is the route LFL may go or even may want to go, as it would tend to dilute the Jedi title, something which is inherently a major part within Star Wars.

Child of Winds (some earlier comments I lost track of)...
"Who gives Jacen the right? Luke is a good person and someone needed to do something before the flowers (Mara and Ben) died. Why not Luke? He was the only one who possibly had a chance to save them. He made a choice. I happen to think it was the correct one and that his 'peers' shouldn't have 'scolded' him for it."

Jacen took the right, because with what he learned from Vergere (as opposed to what he learned from being a Jedi

 

back to the top

 

"New Jedi" as opposed to "new Jedi."

Please- lets not go there. But, I undersatnd your point. This would be another major dillution of SW themes.

With regards to Vergere's original decision to go with the Vong. She might have had some feelings of becoming a double agent, but I still think her primary focus was saving lives. This forced martyrdom would be compatible with the Jedi notion of sacracfice, but after half of a lifetime, it would be a logical extention to have her develop feelings of hatred and betrayal toward the Jedi.

Would this hatred be absolute, no. But, she was regarded as part slave/part pet during her time of waiting. This has got to change a person's frame of reference.

 

Ghengis- I still believe Vergere may have went willingly (not abducted) with the Vong undercover as an intelligence operative. At the time when she went, Vergere was a Jedi - a traditional Jedi. That means that seeking knowledge was one of her main ideals. In the Vong, the galaxy had a new mysterious species of beings never before "seen" in the galaxy by others. I think she saw they were dangerous and sought to uncover more about them.

*** From what I remember of Rogue Planet I think I can agree with you on this. This was my sense as well.

I think what Vergere learned while she was with the Vong was that they must be stopped. Not deestroyed, but stopped. And they wouldn't be able to be stopped by her alone. So, she had to wait it out. And waiting it out with the Vong isn't a walk in the park.

I have no idea of whether or not she was broken. But, I do believe that her actions in Traitor are the logical extension of the traditional Jedi we first heard about in Rogue Planet. ...It's just that she's now had some 50 years of the Embrace of Pain to skew her thought processes.

***Perhaps she does believe that they need to be stopped, but it is your last point that I find troubling. Based on what I am reading in the book, I am seeing Vergere as someone who has been tortured and had been immersed in another culture so long that she begin identifying with the captor and losing what she had once been. This in turn is what she is doing to Jacen. Thinking that her way should be Jacen's way. I find it difficult to watch one brainwashed and tortured indivdual, brainwash and torture another and call it truth, (or lies )

Jacen took the right, because with what he learned from Vergere (as opposed to what he learned from being a Jedi), Jacen took it upon himself. And yes, there were consequences because of it.

Contrast this with Luke, who gave in to his most carnal rage and was flailing away at his wife and son with all of the power of the Force he could muster. He endangered himself, he endangered his wife, he endangered his unborn son, and he endangered the others who were around them. What he was doing was not the Jedi way.

*** Actually, I don't believe Luke was flailing away at his wife and son, he was trying to push back the disease, he was protecting his wife and son. He may not have been using the Jedi way but he was doing the most human and natural thing that anyone might do in that situation. And since Traitor says there is no dark side then there is no need to hold Luke up to special inspection because of it. His intent was to save life.

Cow-"Luke is the ONLY one that authors and SW fans keep bringing up the dark side with whenever he uses a human emotion."

Ghengis- That's because Luke is the one with this huge Star Wars legacy. His father was seduced by the Dark Side, and the entire galaxy paid for it. Luke will always be living under the shadow of his father's legacy. It's unique to him and Leia. Yoda, someone who is not ignorant of the Force and its machinations observed that "once you start down its dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." The reason why Luke will forver be tied to the Dark Side is because Luke will forever be tied to the Dark Side.

*** I don't agree that Luke is the only one with a big Dark side Legacy. I agree with Cow here that he is the only one who is made constantly accountable. Leia is his twin and has just as much of a legacy as him, she uses her anger quite often but is never held accountable. Despite the flip flopping of the books, Leia is a Jedi in my book and should be held to the same standards. And what about Mara? She has a big dark side legacy but she is never made to pay any consequences for it. How about Kyle or Kam Solusar, or Jaina, who went from light to dark to light in hyperspace speed. Has she been held up to any real scrutiny? And what about Kyp? He sure went along with Jaina on her little trip but I didn't see many lectures sent his way.

Luke actually saved his father and made good come out of

 

Whether it's applicable to people who weren't subjected to such an environment is another matter entirely. Whether it's applicable in peace-time to help further explore the Force and gain knowledge of the universe is another matter entirely. Whether it should become a part of the Jedi manual of standard operating procedure is another matter entirely.

This seems to be what Vergere stated as hoping Jacen could teach her one day. A way to learn everything Jacen was taught wihtout the pain. Something Vergere hopes is out there.

 

Genghis:
But, Kyp has never been one to do things the easy way. Kyp is not only a Jedi, but a Jedi Master. Why do you think he'd throw out his core belief system just because something that you think may be easier comes along?

But Kyp has never shied away from aggression either. He has advocated attacking the Yuuzhan Vong. I would think he would find this idea that you can not only use your aggressive tendencies, but become more POWERFUL because of using them very, very attractive. I think power has always meant more to him than to Luke or Yoda or Obi-wan, for example. He would still remain a Force-user. I think that would be of primary importance to him. I don't think being a Jedi per se means that much to him. I don't know that he has ever been all that happy with all of the Jedi rules. We'll see, won't we?

Why do you think half the Jedi Order would do the same? These people are Jedi and have chosen to be Jedi.

I think it's possible that it's more that they have chosen to be FORCE USERS. Up until now, Jedi training was the only way for a Force sensitive to learn to use his/her gifts. Now, there is suddenly another way, and a way which doesn't involve as much worry when tapping into the power. I think it's going to sound pretty attractive to some Force sensitives/Jedi.

But, also one of the core tenets of being a Jedi is using the Force for knowledge. So, why shouldn't the Jedi at least explore this route as well.

Yes, I'm sure there will be a LOT of exploration of this route.

It doesn't mean they'll instantly jump ship because "Hey, look at all the power I can get." As proof, there's already the "Dark Side route" - infinite power without any responsibility. You don't see the whole order running out to take up that path. No different with Jacen's way.

I think this WILL be different because before Jedi were terrified of becoming future Darth Vaders. Now they will see that using dark emotions isn't going to make them become instant villains, that they can act in anger, hatred, fear, whatever, and those emotions will just help increase their power and accomplish their goals more easily, not turn them into evil dark lords.

That's because Luke is the one with this huge Star Wars legacy. His father was seduced by the Dark Side, and the entire galaxy paid for it. Luke will always be living under the shadow of his father's legacy. It's unique to him and Leia.

Fine! I can accept that. BUT, it's only LUKE that this is ever brought up about. Leia SHARES the legacy, but the dark side is never mentioned when she acts in anger or hatred or in revenge. Luke, who only rarely even has these emotions, is berated by other characters or the dark side mentioned by the authors EVERY time. He's never allowed to have a normal human reaction without being made to feel guilty. This does NOT happen with or to Leia and I think this is very unfair. If they were treated equally, I'd have no complaints.

I wrote:
"It seems to be VERY easy to leave the Jedi way."

Genghis:
That's because the infrastructure has been destroyed. Luke can't afford to ship out failed Jedi to an agriculture camp like the PT Jedi did. There's now far less than a hundred Jedi in the whole galaxy. Luke doesn't have the luxury of taking exit interviews or setting up an internal affairs division to handle rogues. Due to necessity of trying to set up a whole order, Luke doesn't have the resources to help every single Jedi who has philosophical differences with what he's teaching.

I don't disagree with what you wrote, Genghis, but how does that correlate to my comment that you quoted? I was just saying that it didn't seem to take much convincing for a Jedi to abandon the Jedi Code, and it certainly wasn't hard to get out of the Order, so I see a lot of Jedi leaving to follow Jacen and Vergere's philosophy. I see this especially because Jacen is obviously going to be the superhero of the NJO. What young (or not so young) Jedi isn't going to want to follow in the footsteps of the Savior of th

 

I think one important point we must consider is how much "truth" about the Force and the Jedi was Luke given. Obviously Yoda and Ben held back quite a bit of information. Why? Were they protecting Luke or did they need Luke to be molded in a certain way. One point Vergere and Qui-gon bring up is the different views of the Force and the Jedi's role in the world. Obi-won felt Qui-gon overstepped his bounds with Anakin, yet Qui-gon was sure he was correct because he was following the will of the Force. I think Vergere felt that way when she went off with the Vong.
During the months or weeks that Luke trained with Yoda, Yoda never felt the need to mention the Jedi temple or midiclorides or the fact child are removed from their families or that Jedi couldn't marry. Why? Perhaps Yoda wanted a new start. He didn't want the Jedi to make the same mistakes. Qui-gon claims Anakin will bring balance to the Force. Could we be seeing that balance come to be in a "New Jedi Order" created by his first born grandson-- Jacen?

 

This doesnt suit Kyp IMO. There's "the line between light and dark is blurred", and then there is "There is no line to cross, as there is no dark side". For him to follow this way any sooner than any other Jedi to me would need an author to write him exceedingly OOC.

 

Perhaps Yoda wanted a new start. He didn't want the Jedi to make the same mistakes.

Yes! Remember, when Yoda was dying, and Luke thought that he (Luke) was the last of the Jedi, Yoda corrected him. "No, not the last of the old, but the first of the new."

And Luke has really been searching all this time for what that really means. Now does this mean that 'Vegere's Way' will become the New Jedi Order? I don't think so, but it will influence it.

And I really don't think Vegere's thinking is all that radical - it's just another way of looking at things. The darkness is not an external entity to be feared or avoided, the darkness (and, therefore, lightness) is inside, were it has to be acknowledged and dealt with.

OOOOooo, just had a thought... Remember how Luke sees the conflict in Vader - he senses the good in him. Obi-Wan and Yoda dismiss it - they don't think it's possible for Vader to have any good in him since he has given himself over to the Dark. But, Luke's belief in the good in his father saves him and the whole GFFA.

Jason has realized the mirror to this - the dark is in all Jedi as well.

Except, of course, there is no Light or Dark, there just is the Force. Hmmm... I still have to think about this....

 

ReaperFett -- This doesnt suit Kyp IMO. There's "the line between light and dark is blurred", and then there is "There is no line to cross, as there is no dark side". For him to follow this way any sooner than any other Jedi to me would need an author to write him exceedingly OOC.

I agree, Reaper! I could actually see Kyp being the one to fight this the most. He has been in the grasp of the Dark Side and did terrible things while there. I would think that he would argue more than anyone that there is a Dark Side.