Official Traitor thread. (poss. spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by beafet, Nov 4, 2001.

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  1. Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2002
    star 5
    I was just thinking, that we could actually pose an argument that there IS a Light/Dark division. It isn't within the Force, persay, I guess, but there is definitely a division within the Jedi Order. The Light Side is where just about everyone is operating from right now, and the Dark Side is when they cross over into doing bad things. Thus, Dark Jedi and Sith. It doesn't necessarily mean the Force itself has divisions, just the Jedi. To say someone has "gone to the Dark Side" means that they've turned against the good guys and are, most likely, killing scads of people.

    Just my spare change.

    Dana
  2. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Hapan...
    "I would think that he would argue more than anyone that there is a Dark Side."

    I also agree. Vergere's words do absolutely nothing to the fact that the Force and especially the Dark Side can indeed sap free will. Kyp Durron did not merely decide to throw himself in league with Exar Kun - he was mugged by Exar Kun and forced to act by the darkest arts of the Sith.

    Vergere's way does not shift any culpability away from Exar Kun onto Kyp Durron with respect to Kyp's actions while done under the influence of a Sith Lord. Kyp Durron actually was under the influence of the Sith Lord using powers of the Force which have already been proven to have sapped free will from people.

    Kyp's actions were not his own. They were the actions of an evil Sith Lord who had possessed Kyp. He didn't just merely decide one day, "Hey, let me destroy Luke Skywalker and take over the galaxy."

    The long-entombed Dark Side spirit of an ancient Sith Lord grabbed hold of his mind and made him do those things.
  3. Miccu_Resea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2002
    star 4
    The question is, where is that line drawn? When does the Light side become the Dark side? does a person cross the Dark side if they kill a group of people, but save the life of many? What if they had to kill the person that would go on and kill everyone in the galaxy? when does the Light Side become the Dark side? When does right become wrong? Is it wrong if someone steals, but to save their family, is that wrong?

    The quesiton is, When does the Dark Side become the Light side?
  4. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Genghis,

    Did you get that bit about shipping failed Jedi off to the agricultural corps from the Jedi Trials Quiz ( :) ) or is that actually published in a legitimate story somewhere?

    Because the Trials quiz is extremely funny!!

    Ol' Master Yoda is portrayed a lot like the drill sgt from Full Metal Jacket!!
  5. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

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    Mar 18, 2001
    star 5
    I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that it is the light or darkness within a person that makes the difference, I think the films did make that point, and I know that the world isn't just a black or white thing. More often then not it is somewhere in between. My problem is that this seems to reduce the Force to just a mindless tool, like a knife that can either be used to prepare food or to maim and kill. It takes away some of the mystery and fun that was SW, for me. If the restrictions on behavior and/or the use of the Force are removed because there is no darkside, or lightside then I have fears for what the consequences will be.


  6. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    No, it's in the Jedi Apprentice series.

    It's actually what they do with Padawans who can't hack it. They ship them off in part to these "labor camps."

    (Paraprasing the life of a Jedi...) So, basically the PT Jedi steal your kid. Indoctrinate him/her into their cult during the kid's formative years, allowing no or minimal contact with you. And then if one of their members doesn't choose to take him as an apprentice, they ship them off to institutionalized labor camps among other things.

    One high point, it keeps all of these Force-users they've just trained from going on to taking over the galaxy. They're out there forced to tend fields (or whatever their strength may be) all day, instead.

    Nice.

    Child of Winds...
    This lack of support system in Luke's Jedi Order is relevent to your point about how easy it is to leave because the old Jedi Order had a structure in place within the system to take care of such "disgruntled" Jedi. By necessity of the times, this structure is not available to Luke's Jedi Order. Therefore, it's easier to leave in Luke's order because there's no method to deal with such people.
  7. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Yes! Remember, when Yoda was dying, and Luke thought that he (Luke) was the last of the Jedi, Yoda corrected him. "No, not the last of the old, but the first of the new."

    Just a quick correction here. Yoda DID tell Luke that when he died, "...the last of the Jedi will you be."

    It was Obi-Wan Kenobi in HEIR TO THE EMPIRE, I think, that told Luke he wasn't the last of the old, 'but the first of the new'.

  8. Hapan_Kickboxer Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 1
    LOL ChildofWinds! Ok, twist my arm, make me watch Return of the Jedi again! :)

    I will report back... :)
  9. Dantana Skywalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2002
    star 5
    Of course, as powerful as Yoda was, there are limits even to his powers, so he might not have known that other Jedi existed still. After all, they went into hiding to HIDE.

    Dana
  10. Motterman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2000
    star 2
    It just dawned on me how ironic that we are having this discussion in "The Jedi Council", as no doubt, the pros and cons of Vergere's views/teachings on the Force will be argued in ensuing NJO books....
  11. lfecteau Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    <I>The question is, where is that line drawn? When does the Light side become the Dark side? does a person cross the Dark side if they kill a group of people, but save the life of many?</I>

    I think the answer lies in how the Force is used. Ganner kills hundreds of Vong, but he is not using the Force it is using him. One could argue the same thing about Luke in New Hope when he kills all the people on the Death Star. The Force lead Luke to that moment, just like it lead Qui-Gon to Anakin. My arguement is that the Force is not dark or consuming until you weld it and try to control it.
  12. SkywalkersSon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2001
    star 3
    We've been discussing TRAITOR in Skydancer's SOS Son of Skywalker thread.

    Even though Luke was not in TRAITOR, Luke is the biggest loser of TRAITOR. What he has believed for over two decades and what he has taught for many years is now going to be proven wrong. Luke also now becomes personally expendable. Del Rey can now kill him off in this series, because there are two who can take his place. Suddenly, there is a Jedi from the Old Republic times who not only knows what Luke knows, but has a new, 'improved' philosophy and has information about the Old Republic Jedi, their traditions, training techniques, and history. Vergere can now take Luke's place as leader of the Jedi and as head of the Jedi Council.

    Meanwhile, Jacen can take Luke's place as the most powerful Jedi and the galaxy's super hero. He not only has the enormous Force power which he can augment with emotions, but he also can sense the Vong and control the World Brain. Jacen can probably end the conflict all by himself.

    Luke was degraded in the book. One example was in the discussion between Jacen and Anakin's 'ghost' or whatever. Anakin says,

    I didn't question things because I was never the questioneing kind of guy. I wasnever thoughtful, like you. I was more like Uncle Luke: a human weapon. Point me at the bad guys and turn me loose, I knock 'em down, and everybody cheers'.

    but things are different now. doing things the old way---my way, Uncle Luke's way---that's just getting people killed."


    In the first place, Luke wasn't being used as a weapon in the NEW JEDI ORDER. He was usually written as sitting passively by waiting to gain more knowledge. He didn't allow the Jedi to be proactive or to engage the Vong unless they were defending others or until they had a focused objective. It wasn't Luke or other Jedi as a weapon that didn't work against the Vong. They didn't use that method. Besides, Luke is a thinking, compassionate Jedi. He may have been impatient and rash as a teenager, but Luke hasn't been like that in a LONG time. I would also say that this war against the Vong hasn't been going on long enough to say whether or not Luke's tactics are wrong or right.

    Ganner rejected Luke's teachings too. He was written as successfully reaching the full power of the Force only after he let go of what Luke had taught him and accepted Vergere's philosophy. That too is a put-down of Luke both as a teacher and a Jedi.

    In fact, the whole NEW JEDI ORdER series seems to involve the gradual put-down and destruction of Luke's character. Almost every book has something which lowers him in the eyes of other characters or in the eyes of STAR WARS fans or both. He has been written out of character and has been disrespected by many.

    As a fellow poster said:.. (I got permission to share this quote.) "at this point in Luke's life, he should be the major source of Jedi wisdom even as he continues to learn and grow himself. Instead, it seems that an outside source is now going to provide the enlightenment to the Jedi Knights AND to Luke. Now he's going to be questioning the very foundations of his beliefs yet again. Furthermore, Vergere appears to be heading toward usurping the role, the staus, the job that should have been Luke's".

    Luke Skywalker is and always has been my favorite character. I don't like how the other NEW JEDI ORDER books and TRAITOR have degraded him and lowered him in importance in the STAR WARS universe.
  13. JediLord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2000
    star 4
    My beef with this new book has to do with Non Anor. He acts totally different than rom any other book, and I know it is b/c it has a new author, but come on! He is incompetent and not as menacing as he once was.

    And the whole Luke thing is really wrong. He never had a problem fighting any threat against the galaxy, but now that it is needed for the plot, the editors have decied to castrate him. The NJO is a good story, but we are robbed of an even better story b/c LUke is acting like a pansy.

    It is insulting that they manipulate and change a charcters personality to suit their story.
  14. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Even though Luke was not in TRAITOR, Luke is the biggest loser of TRAITOR. What he has believed for over two decades and what he has taught for many years is now going to be proven wrong.

    No. Just because Vergere believes something and has convinced Jacen that that something is the truth, doesn't mean that it necessarily is the truth. If I created a new religion today and convinced my family that it was the One True Religion, that doesn't suddenly mean that everyone else in the world is suddenly wrong. It just means there's a new system of faith in addition to all the old ones.

    Luke also now becomes personally expendable. Del Rey can now kill him off in this series, because there are two who can take his place. Suddenly, there is a Jedi from the Old Republic times who not only knows what Luke knows, but has a new, 'improved' philosophy and has information about the Old Republic Jedi, their traditions, training techniques, and history. Vergere can now take Luke's place as leader of the Jedi and as head of the Jedi Council.

    Except, of course, that you've obviously missed the bit in the book about Jacen and Vergere *not* being Jedi anymore. And she doesn't know what Luke knows. She knows what she knows, and most of that was learned while she was away. She has no idea what Luke knows. And according to WJW, they shrink-wrap each others' minds. It's not a one way thing. Besides, do you think if Vergere came up to the Jedi, said "I'm right, you're wrong, Luke's out, and I'm in charge," they'd just put up with it? Fat chance. . .

    Meanwhile, Jacen can take Luke's place as the most powerful Jedi and the galaxy's super hero. He not only has the enormous Force power which he can augment with emotions, but he also can sense the Vong and control the World Brain. Jacen can probably end the conflict all by himself.

    He doesn't control the World Brain. He persuaded the World Brain to compromise. This has nothing to do with Luke. In a fight, Luke would still hand Jacen's ass to him on a platter.

    Luke was degraded in the book. One example was in the discussion between Jacen and Anakin's 'ghost' or whatever. Anakin says. . .In the first place, Luke wasn't being used as a weapon in the NEW JEDI ORDER. He was usually written as sitting passively by waiting to gain more knowledge. He didn't allow the Jedi to be proactive or to engage the Vong unless they were defending others or until they had a focused objective. It wasn't Luke or other Jedi as a weapon that didn't work against the Vong. They didn't use that method. Besides, Luke is a thinking, compassionate Jedi. He may have been impatient and rash as a teenager, but Luke hasn't been like that in a LONG time. I would also say that this war against the Vong hasn't been going on long enough to say whether or not Luke's tactics are wrong or right.

    Luke was not degraded. An observation was made about Luke by Anakin or Jacen -- an observation which has been made before. Luke was trained as a weapon by Yoda; a weapon against the Empire.

    Ganner rejected Luke's teachings too. He was written as successfully reaching the full power of the Force only after he let go of what Luke had taught him and accepted Vergere's philosophy. That too is a put-down of Luke both as a teacher and a Jedi.

    He didn't accept Vergere's philosophy per se. He didn't interact with Vergere. What he realized was the he needed to be himself, and not what Luke and everyone else decided that he should be. Luke is a Jedi. Luke teaches the Jedi. Jacen and Vergere are not Jedi, and what they believe does not have any direct impact on the Jedi.

    In fact, the whole NEW JEDI ORdER series seems to involve the gradual put-down and destruction of Luke's character. Almost every book has something which lowers him in the eyes of other characters or in the eyes of STAR WARS fans or both. He has been written out of character and has been disrespected by many.

    Disrespecting him by having him consistantly and constantly whoop ass and save the day?

  15. ipopov Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    Dear Lord, that was a Good Read. Bravo on writing the finest Star Wars book since Mr. Zahn's original Thrawn trilogy. That was a very filling meal. It was all just right, with a proper amount of spices and portions.

    I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Vergere expand upon the pre-conceived notions the Jedi had of the divsion between Light and Dark Jedi. Although this is the only SW book I've read excluding Zahn's original Thrawn trilogy, I found nothing the least bit heretical about the concepts Vergere discussed with Jacen (pronounced "Jason"?) of there existing merely the force energy, rather than a dualistic-natured force energy field.

    It all seems like a logical development of the original understanding that existed of the nature of the force.

    Several small questions:

    1. How much say did you have over the cover that was used? Although it's not a *terrible* cover, neither is it a very good one. The content of the book deserves a better cover than this.

    2. Ganner's Last Stand reminded me of a legend I read in a history book about St. Peter standing before the gates of Rome during Attila the Hun's invasion. As Attila approached, God appears behind St. Peter, and he loudly said "None Shall Pass." Attila was supposedly so terrified at the presence of St. Peter and the image of God, that he fled back to Mongolia at that instant.

    Did this legend/myth have any influence at all in the writing of that scene?

    3. Vergere mentioned that she had met Anakin Skywalker when he was still a little boy. Is this expounded further in a seperate book?

    Bravo on writing an excellent Star Wars novel Mr. Stover. I look forward to seeing more of your works in the future, in the realms of both Star Wars and Overworld.

    - Ilya Popov
  16. MWStover - Traitor - Shatterpoint - ROTS - LSatSoM

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    Jan 17, 2002
    star 3
    IP:

    There are a number of such legends. But, for the most part, Ganner's Last Stand was inspired by Ganner himself. He was born to be a legend.

    I had no say in the cover art. I don't mind it at all, though: that slightly dazed, slightly crazed look in Jacen's eye suits me right down to the ground.

    Vergere's acquaintance with Jacen's grandfather is mentioned in passing in ROGUE PLANET -- p51 of the hardcover edition, in fact.
  17. Hapan_Kickboxer Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 1
    Arrgghh! These Son of Skywalker arguements just scare me!

    Just because one character thinks something, it doesn't mean that they are right! It also doesn't mean that what they think is the author's opinion.

    We went through this when Kyp had the realization that he was stronger than Luke. Does that automatically make him stronger, NO. Does that mean that the author thinks Kyp is stronger than Luke, NO. It just means that Kyp thinks he his stronger than Luke. And he could be proved wrong.

    We don't know how the other Jedi will react to Vegere and Jason. Keep in mind that some of the future books in the series are under the title "Jedi Heretic." I have no idea who that is describing, but it could be Vegere. Heretic is a rather negative term, is it not? It would suggest to me that the jedi reject her teachings.

    Calm down people, no one is killing Luke!

    This is, however, the greatest thing about Traitor: we are all in an uproar about it! :) That in itself tells me it was a good book, even if you hated it.

    I don't think Traitor was a book that we readers were supposed to just sit back and numbly enjoy. It was meant to shake us and make us think - just as it did for Jason. And it is doing just that! Best book in the series so far! Great job, Matt!
  18. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    forced to act by the darkest arts of the Sith.

    Kyp was never forced to act by Kun, only influenced by Kun. A big difference. Being forced means no control over your decisions. Being influenced is much more subtle and one can decide to not do what the influence is telling them to do. Such as Kyp not killing Luke, Kun would have wanted the jedi dead compared to just absent from his body. Kyp had the darkness inside him. Hating the empire for taking his family and hating it for ruining his life until he escaped. Kun did not put that there he had it inside him, all Kun did was push him in a certain direction and keep whispering in his ear so to speak(with the force).
  19. ipopov Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    A silly questin no doubt, but since I'm not an active SW EU reader, it merits asking: How is Jacen's name pronounced? Jass-en? Jay-sen? Is there even an official answer to this?
  20. SkywalkersSon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2001
    star 3
    MASTADGE: Except, of course, that you've obviously missed the bit in the book about Jacen and Vergere *not* being Jedi anymore.

    A rose by any other name smells as sweet and remains a rose. I am pretty sure that both Jacen and Vergere will be known as Jedi again one day. They are certainly users or wielders of the Force, as are the Jedi.

    And she doesn't know what Luke knows. She knows what she knows, and most of that was learned while she was away. She has no idea what Luke knows.

    I meant that she knows at least as much about the Force as Luke because she was a fully trained Jedi of the Old Order before she went with the Vong. Luke only had a very short (but intense!) formal training time. He didn't have time or opportunity to learn everything that most Jedi of the Old Order spent about 25 years learning. He had to learn much on his own.

    Vergere also knows about the training, history, and traditions of the Jedi. Luke has had to put bits and pieces together.

    Now she also has this new philosophy which Luke and about 25,000 years of Jedi knights knew nothing about. Don't you think this will make her the top and most respected Force user alive? I do. I don't like it, but I do.

    About all Luke knows that Vergere doesn't, is about the war against the Empire, how and when Obi-wan and Yoda died, and about how Luke restarted the Order. He doesn't even know about how the Jedi of the Old Republic were defeated.

    MASTADGE:do you think if Vergere came up to the Jedi, said "I'm right, you're wrong, Luke's out, and I'm in charge," they'd just put up with it? Fat chance. . .

    I don't think it would happen that way. I think Luke would turn the leadership over to her. He would feel that since she has more knowledge and wisdom about the Jedi and the Force, she should head the Order. He has always been unsure of himself, his teaching methods, and the place of the new Jedi in the galaxy anyway. He has also always been self-effacing. I can easily see him stepping aside.

    MASTADGE:He doesn't control the World Brain. He persuaded the World Brain to compromise.

    It amounts to the same thing. He can persuade it to do what he wants.

    MASTADGE:This has nothing to do with Luke. In a fight, Luke would still hand Jacen's ass to him on a platter.

    I highly doubt it, especially now that Jacen can become as powerful as necessary just by feeding on emotions.

    MASTADGE: Luke was not degraded. An observation was made about Luke by Anakin or Jacen -- an observation which has been made before.

    Exactly! In the NEW JEDI ORDER, people are always saying Luke is doing something the wrong way. They are always second-guessing what he says and does and debating with him, always challenging what he says and does.

    MASTADGE:Luke was trained as a weapon by Yoda; a weapon against the Empire.

    But Luke hasn't been a weapon in a long, long time. He has not been a weapon in the war against the Vong, and that was where Anakin's ghost was saying that Luke's way (using Luke and others as weapons) was wrong and was getting people killed.

    MASTADGE: He didn't accept Vergere's philosophy per se. He didn't interact with Vergere.

    It doesn't matter whether he directly interacted with her or not. He DID accept and use her philosophy which he learned through Jacen.

    It was when he rejected what Luke had taught him about combat being a tragedy and killing calmly and with reverence and grief when it was necessary, that the Force 'thundered' through him. When he slaughtered "effortlessly, carelessly, laughingly, and joyfully" he became extremely powerful and was able to hold the archway.

    MASTADGE: Luke teaches the Jedi. Jacen and Vergere are not Jedi, and what they believe does not have any direct impact on the Jedi.

    Jacen and Vergere WERE Jedi, and I believe they will call themselves Jedi again. Vergere even called Jacen 'the Best Jedi'.

    MASTADGE:Disrespecting him by having him consistantly and constantly whoop ass and save the day?

    Luke had two
  21. Twin_Suns_7 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 2
    The Jay-sen one is correct, i believe.
  22. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Obi_Wans_Love_Child...
    "Kyp was never forced to act by Kun, only influenced by Kun. A big difference. Being forced means no control over your decisions. Being influenced is much more subtle and one can decide to not do what the influence is telling them to do."

    No, that is wrong. The account I gave is supported by fact:
      "Only the death of Exar Kun breaks the spell that holds Kyp in thrall to the shade of the ancient Sith Lord."
      Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p. 36
    Kyp Durron was mugged by the Dark Side power of Exar Kun and forced to do the Sith Lord's bidding. He was held in "thrall" - enslaved by the Dark Lord of the Sith. Held in bondage. He was forced by a spell Kun placed over him - the decisions were not his and were in fact Kun's.

    Vergere's insight into the Force does nothing to affect this situation of Kyp's and those like him who were enthralled by the powers of the Force against their will.

    There was an external force which caused Kyp to do what he did. That force was the Force. The Force used by that force was used for evil. Some have called this the "Dark Side." Call it what you will.

    Kyp Durron's decisions were not his own.
  23. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    Does Say Kun's influence in the NEGTC
  24. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    You know just because Vergere tells Jacen that he is no longer a Jedi Knight in Traitor it doesnt mean that he ceases to be a Jedi, Jacen has to quit being a jedi voluntarily vergere cant make that choice for him.

    About Vergere being the key to the old order didnt Empatojayous Brand,Ikrit,Calista, and Vima Da-Boda tell him about the old order and its history and traditions? just because Luke has never gone on record saying brand told him something about the old jedi ways doesnt mean brand didnt tell him anything.
  25. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    G12 yes it says thrall in the source book while throughout Champions of the Force( pgs 138, 184) it speaks of influence not thrall. I am inclined to believe the author of the book instead of the sourcebook. I guess its one of those depends on who you believe.
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