Official Traitor thread. (poss. spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by beafet, Nov 4, 2001.

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  1. PrinceXizor Former TF.N Foreign Book Cover Staff

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    Jul 4, 2001
    star 5
    Just got it. One week after the release. :eek: Waaaaaaayyy faster than my usual bookstore... And cheaper, actually. Me officially liken Amazon. Okay, okay, I doubt this interests any of you... :p

    [opens the book anxiously]
  2. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Being "enthralled" is not contradictory to being "influenced."

    However, the perception of merely being "influenced" is contradictory to being "enthralled."

    Therefore, the Jedi Academy Sourcebook is complementary to the original source. And to the New Essential Guide to Characters. And to every other source that mentions anything on the subject.

    However, the view that Kyp had free will while under Kun's influence is contradictory to the Jedi Academy Sourcebook.

    And if one is to merely assume "it's in error," on some arbitrary whim, then there goes any basis for discussion at all. So, I'll set aside that entire argument, it's irrelevent here, I think.

    So, regardless of which specific actions the original source may assert to be "merely" (quote to emphasize that the word is implied here, not from the original Anderson novels) being influenced by Kun, the big picture is that they were influenced by Kun, because they were Kun's decisions. Because Kyp was in Kun's thrall - a slave to his will.

    This is not anything out of the ordinary. We see Obi-Wan do the same to Stormtroopers in the very first Star Wars movie. We see Obi-Wan overcome the will of Elian Sleazebaggano in AotC.

    In the Jedi Academy Trilogy, we know that a much more powerful force, Exar Kun, simply did the "ole' hand wave" on Kyp, because a source tells us so.

    The only thing left then is "when" was Kun's spell put into effect, as it very clearly existed. When Kyp first opened himself to Kun, or not until Kun called on him to undertake the most evil of all the actions performed by Kyp's hands?
  3. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    Ghengis I do not see Kyp as a slave to Kun and you do. I guess it depends on our points of view and its one of those things we will not agree on. I see lines like Kyp hearing Kun yelling in his ear to kill Han and Kyp resisting. Its lines like that which make me think it was influence over Kyp and not Kyp having no control over his actions which Kun showed. Now there are many forms of influence, but Kyp did those things and he could have fought them. He chose not to, until Han his friend was in danger. Then he fought and during that moment Kun's influence was severed. Kyp was able to stop, but just barely.
  4. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    As I posted in the nature of the force thread, I think that Kun was able to exert control over Kyp because of Kyp's already present rage.

    It was this imbalance that was already present in Kyp that allowed Kun's spirit to flood in.

    Remember,the force is strongest against the weak minded. I would expand that to include those who are being led by their emotions. Kyp was not weak minded, but his rational control was weakened. The effect was like putting a soggy piece of bread on a hot summer window sill. Mold would consume the bread, just like Kun consumed Kyp's good intentions.

    Jacen, using Vergere's new found perception, seems to be using the force in a very dangerous way. Just like Kyp attempted to do back at Yavin. The difference is that Jacen turned his pain outward, while Kyp internalized his. Jacen uses his pain as a tool, Kyp's anger consumed him.

    The interesting aspect of Jacen will be to see what the long term effects are. Will he ever be able to have a normal relationship in the SW universe, or will he now exsist outside of his former reality?
  5. Grand_Admiral_Xian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2001
    star 1
    Someone may have mentioned it, and I just didn't see it, but Yoda did say
    "When gone am I, the Last of the Jedi will you be, pass on what you have learned."
  6. Goreld Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 1
    edit: I need to go watch the movie again, for I am ignorant!
  7. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    A rose by any other name smells as sweet and remains a rose. I am pretty sure that both Jacen and Vergere will be known as Jedi again one day. They are certainly users or wielders of the Force, as are the Jedi.

    Bad analogy. In this case the Force is like clorophyll. Another flower also uses the green stuff, and it also smells sweet, but it's not necessarily a rose. We've seen several groups of Force-wielders throughout the EU that definitely were not Jedi, nor were identified as such. The Jensaari, the Aing-Ti, and the Sith to name a few.

    I meant that she knows at least as much about the Force as Luke because she was a fully trained Jedi of the Old Order before she went with the Vong. Luke only had a very short (but intense!) formal training time. He didn't have time or opportunity to learn everything that most Jedi of the Old Order spent about 25 years learning. He had to learn much on his own.

    I still disagree. She learned what the Old Jedi Order had to teach, and then had that expanded on by her own experiences. Luke learned what he could in his short time with Yoda, and then had that expanded on by his experiences. Just because she's been around longer doesn't mean that she knows more, or better. And just because he's mostly self-taught doesn't make what he knows and less right or valuable. It makes no difference if I've been studying, say, math for 50 years and somebody else for 50 days; if that other person is prodigously smarter than I, and better at math, then that's that, regardless of amount of time spent studying.

    Vergere also knows about the training, history, and traditions of the Jedi. Luke has had to put bits and pieces together.

    So? It's no secret that Luke's Jedi Order is very different from the Republic's Jedi Order.

    Now she also has this new philosophy which Luke and about 25,000 years of Jedi knights knew nothing about. Don't you think this will make her the top and most respected Force user alive? I do. I don't like it, but I do.

    No. Imagine, if you will, a new sect of Christianity being formed around the basis of a new philosophy that all the other Christians of the last 2,000 years knew nothing about. They wouldn't exactly suddenly become the most respected Christians -- chances are, they'd be at best ridiculed and at worst downright trashed by other groups who are convinced that they're right.

    About all Luke knows that Vergere doesn't, is about the war against the Empire, how and when Obi-wan and Yoda died, and about how Luke restarted the Order. He doesn't even know about how the Jedi of the Old Republic were defeated.

    What's your point? So she has a more comprehensive grasp of Old Republic history. What does this have to do with how they use the Force, or how effective they are as Jedi?

    I don't think it would happen that way. I think Luke would turn the leadership over to her. He would feel that since she has more knowledge and wisdom about the Jedi and the Force, she should head the Order. He has always been unsure of himself, his teaching methods, and the place of the new Jedi in the galaxy anyway. He has also always been self-effacing. I can easily see him stepping aside.

    Isn't one of your complaints about the NJO that Luke has *not* always been like that? I still don't see where your ideas about Vergere having more knowledge and wisdom come from. She can use the Force, as can he. He is almost undoubtedly stronger than her. He has been steadily improving his skills for 25+ years; she, among the Vong, very likely on the other hand, has not had much chance to work with the Force a whole lot. Plus, she's NOT A JEDI.

    It amounts to the same thing. He can persuade it to do what he wants.

    Yes. He can persuade it, with common sense and common good in mind. He cannot "control" it.

    I highly doubt it, especially now that Jacen can become as powerful as necessary just by feeding on emotions.

    Huh? He doesn't gain power from feeding on emotions. . . His strong point has
  8. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    Ok. So I just finished th book yesterday and I obviously have missed an awflu lot of discussion.

    However, with the whole Luke thing . .

    1. Most of the stuff about Luke mentioned in traitor is coming from Jacen's point of view, I'll judge Luke by how Luke himself is written, and it seems to me that he has a plan.

    2. Remember the whoe thing about teachers and students being one and the same? In the end, Jacen teaches a valuable lesson to Vergere. Wheather or not he realizes it, this lesson on the value of life is a direct influence of Luke to me.

    3. The stuff about the Vong being fanatics, and how some jedi are fanatics too. This is also an influence of Luke's insight.

    Here's thing that stood out to me about Vergere:

    1. Despite her philosophy on the force, she acknowledges that evil does indeed exist. Every time the Sith is mentioned she goes cold.

    2. News of Anakin Skywalker shocking her. Not only does this give her new respect and insight into Jacen himself, but now she herself has much to learn.

    Finally my thought on the force. I think what Vergere and Luke working together will reveal, is what it exactly means for the force to be in "balance."

    I'm not sure what I mean by that yet, I need to think about it some more.

    Boy, this one REALLY makes ya think doesn't it?
  9. JADES_FIRE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4

    This is ment to be The New Jedi Order :confused:

    So why are all the new jedi being killed. [face_shocked]

    My two favourite characters,Anakin & Ganner, are now dead. :_|

    Other than that it was a fantastic read. :D

    I thought Ganners last stand was brilliant. :D

    Was it MWStover or Del Rey's idea to "sacrifice Ganner?
  10. SkywalkersSon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2001
    star 3
    MASTADGE, you and I obviously feel differently and aren't going to change one another's minds. That's okay. The discussion has been interesting anyway.

    Just three things:

    MASTADGE: Huh? He doesn't gain power from feeding on emotions. . . His strong point has always been empathy; he's good with living things. That *is* his strength, it doesn't *give* him strength, per se.

    I do agree that Jacen's greatest strength is his empathy, his ability to build relationships with living things. BUT, Jacen DID gain power from feeding on his emotions in TRAITOR. Just one example is on p.182:

    Anger blossomed within him, surged and swept him away in the familiar red tide, but this time he didn't fight it, didn't struggle and thrash and drown himself in its current. He welcomed it. In the red rising tide, he found all the power he needed.

    MASTADGE: But historically, that's how Luke was, and that's how Luke trained his students. Find the bad guys, and beat the crap out of them.

    I disagree. They were often used as mediators, healers, etc. (See SPECTOR OF THE PAST, VISION OF THE FUTURE) Luke argued with one of the Solo boys at one point (I think it was Anakin,but I forget which book.)that though Yoda had trained him to be a warrior, it wasn't really the primary function of the Jedi. Jedi were protectors and defenders, healers, mediators, etc., not warriors or weapons. We know Luke wasn't happy when Kyp and his dozen were 'acting as weapons'.

    Anakin saw the Force as only a tool. Luke doesn't. Anakin also seemed to think he was immortal, constantly pushing the envelope and doing more and more dangerous things. That's what got him killed, NOT Luke's philosophy.

    MASTADGE: Have you read Vector Prime? Star by Star? Enemy Lines?

    Yes, and I'll give you VECTOR PRIME. Though Luke didn't do a lot with the Force in that book, he was written as active and smart.

    STAR BY STAR had a terrible Luke characterization. Sending 16 teenagers off on that Voxyn mission with one adult was not a good move. He was hen-pecked by Mara over and over, and she even took over for him twice. Mostly, he flew an X-wing and he didn't need his Force skills to do it. Just about every other Jedi and many non-Jedi did what he did in STAR BY STAR, so that was not a book with a 'kick *** Luke', as you put it.

    In REBEL STAND, all he did was serve as a distraction for Tahiri so she could kill Nyax. The worst part was that Nyax was able to fool with his mind in that book. That certainly didn't make Luke look very powerful. It shouldn't be possible to mind-influence a Jedi Master, I don't think.

    Enjoyed the discussion even if we don't agree. :)

  11. Window_to_Future Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2002
    Does anyone actually read those posts that are longer then their handspan?
  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Perhaps this site is better suited to people who find long posts too difficult to deal with. :)
  13. Window_to_Future Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2002
    It's just that I don't feel compelled to sit here for 5 minutes reading a post while my eyes are glazing over. Most of the time when I see posts that long it's someone ranting on about how superior air is to air and mostly doesn't make sense.
  14. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    Was my post too long? This is why I don't like official threads sometimes . .. I find myself largely ignored sometimes . .

    By the way I agree with certain aspects of BOTH arguments on the Luke issue . . .
  15. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Last time I checked, logging on to the JC forums wasn't mandatory.

    Good thing we have a system that allows us to read as much or as little as we want. :)



    BTW: you had an insightful post 272...
  16. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    What you believe will happen is irrelevant. The fact now is that THEY ARE NOT JEDI

    Hey Mas? Are we sure they are not Jedi. In some sense I would agree with you they are not the jedi we know, but in the same sense jedi have always been evolving. The jedi from 4000 years ago I am sure would have looked upon the jedi from the old republic differently. The jedi from the old republic would have looked upon the jedi from Luke's time differently. Is what Vergere and Jacen are just the next step in the evolution of the jedi? What is it that makes a jedi? IS it following the jedi code? If that is the answer than dark jedi are not jedi. The sith are not jedi. Is is using the force? If that is the case there are many out there who could be deemed jedi. Its a tough question and one which I am not sure could truly be answered. When I finished Traitor, I looked upon it not as a full novel, but as a beginning. It did not have the same kind of feel to it as a lot of the other NJO books. It felt like the beginning of a huge novel, which makes me feel like there really is no deffinitive answer about what Jacen is at the end of the book. I am not even sure Jacen knows what he is.
  17. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Mr. Stover, one question...

    I was wondering if, prior to being contacted by LFL to write Traitor, you were a fan of (or had read some books from) the EU? If so, were there any you liked in particular over others?
  18. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    Question if Vergere is not a Jedi Knight then why does it say that Jacen Solo newly liberated from the enemy and schooled in an even greater mastery of the Force by the Jedi Knight Vergere?This is from the description of Destiny's Way released awhile back, i think she is a jedi but was lying when she said she wasnt.
  19. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Vergere was an "offical" Jedi Knight.

    However being a slave/pet/priestess to an alien race for 50 years might change one's opinion.

    Only Vergere herself knows if she wants to remain affiliated with the Jedi code. If she is not lying, she clearly has a different perception about the force than Luke's Jedi Order. If this will bring the two into conflict remains to be seen.

    Remember, the order that she knew is long gone. Her place in the new order has yet to be determined.

  20. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    Does anyone actually read those posts that are longer then their handspan?

    I have a big handspan :)
  21. beafet Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 12, 2001
    star 5
  22. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    Ok, I feel better now . .


    :)

    Anyway, I think the fact that Vergere gave Jacen BACK his lightsaber is very symbolic of him being a true jedi. This whole ordeal was a right of passage for Jacen. He has now BECOME a Jedi.

    I mean before, was he really a Jedi? He faced no trials. He was still really just a padawan relativly speaking on the rules of the old order. Now he has faced his trial.

    Finally, the REASON Vergere tells him he is not a jedi in the middle of the book is to get him to discover that he is an individual first, and a jedi second.
  23. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    Well said. I agree... but
    I find it interesting how the NJO era of Jedi have to "find themselves". They have to deal with all the things in their life that would distract them. Things like emotional attachment that would cause them to use the force for evil, revenge, self gratification, or anything else "negative".
    In the prequel era, they just took kids as young as possible to shield them from the real life experience that - in this case, made Jacen... "Jacen".

    Obi-Wan was trained from a young age and is, in many ways, the perfect Jedi. He seems to do everything he's supposed to for all the right reasons.
    (I'm not playing favorites, just comapring backgrounds)
    Anakin Skywalker was taken at a young age, but he was still "too old". He had developed emotions he could not control - he had a chance to form a bond with his mother among other things. he turned to the Sith.
    Jacen Solo was trained from a young age, but was also allowed to develop his whole range of emotions. He had enemies, he had friends, he had family. Some of these things may have contributed to his indecision before, but it would be hard to say that any of these things contributed to his current state. I think Vergere was basically saying - to realize your full potential, you have to leave that other stuff behind.
    Kinda what they were going for in the Old Republic era. -Right?

    So which way is better?
  24. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
  25. beafet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2001
    star 5
    uppers this shouldn't get down to the second page~!
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