Official Traitor thread. (poss. spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by beafet, Nov 4, 2001.

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  1. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    I just wanted to re-post my thoughts here . .

    Yes there have been casualties and pain in the NJO. However, in addition to a new way of looking at the force, (which isn't really all that new)isn't one of the main points of TRAITOR that pain and suffering makes us stronger. Pain matures us into something greater. For a long time I was confused about the difference between what Vergere sees in Jacen's suffering and what the Y. Vong see. Vergere sees pain as a trial to be overcome, to lead to wisdom in life. The Y. Vong see pain as life itself, which can only lead to death. Anyway, my point is use Jacen as a microcausim for the whole galaxy becoming wiser and more mature, and use the NJO as a microcausim for what is happening in the real world. The message is, in the end, that despite evil's intent to cause harm or pain, in reality it only made us stronger. To me that is a very positive and hopeful message. While I am being entertained by this fantasy, I am also poetically getting a possitive message. That is the mark of a good story to me.


  2. beafet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2001
    star 5
  3. Misty_Knight Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    I'm thinking Vergere is really against the Vong but is/has been patiently waiting to find the best way to defeat them - obviously beginning with getting on the "inside". I feel she is molding or prompting Jacen in the direction(s) she thinks will provide the GFFA with the best possible chance of victory over the Vong thru him. She sees it from the bigger picture & is thus very patient, realizing it will take time to develop one who could overcome or lead the NR to overcome the Vong.

    She correctly sees how powerful the Vong are & knows the incredible importance of defeating them in the long run (at least defeating their desire to conquer all of the GFFA) & thus she understood that Jacen's "temporary" journey of pain that she helped put him through was going to be way worth it in the long run if it helps defeat, or even determines defeat of the Vong in the long run.

    Hmmm . . . am I making any sense here? Just thinking that her "bigger picture" is more in line with the NR goals than not, even tho she claims not be be on their "side" necessarily.
  4. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    The fact that she has a prophecy about a future Vong legend is also forshadowiung to me that when victory comes to TNR, they won't be totally destroyed. Methinks some kind of peace and sharing of the galaxy will come.

    Anyway, Oh man . . . I feel a really long post coming . . .
    Are you ready? Ok so here it goes . . .


    If you read some of the posts by Matt Stover, the author of TRAITOR, at the J.C. he gives some good insight, and some hints. However, he choses to let people think for themselves on this. The only thing I have really disagreed with him so far is that he does not seem to believe that the force has a "will" of its own. Then what/who is Ankakin?, and as you say can the force be unbalanced?

    Sure it can. Think of an ecosystem. If the predator in an ecosystem is killed off . . the system will overfloww with the prey. That is until starvation and competion kill them off. Conversly, what if a prey species that doesn't belong is introduced? Remember the Austrailian rabbit crisis? When rabbits were introduced to Australia, with no natural predators, they multiplied so fast they became a pest.

    Think of force users consumed by the "darkside" (Anger, fear, hate, etc.) As a new species being introduced into a new environment. Slowly, the evil desire of their hearts, especially Palpatine, would consume the entire galaxy in turmoil. This is why Anakin's final act brings balance to the force. The "pests" are gone. Anakin also proves that the darkside was never a force controlling him, that it was within his power to choose his path all along.

    Thus, this is a truth that has been known to Luke all along. This is a truth that can not be described by words. Yet, a true danger does exist in "using the force". The explaination of a "darkside" is the safety gaurd.

    Finally, remember Luke going into the cave on Dagobah? For so long it became a popular notion that it was a "domain of evil" because of some supernatural dark force. Yet there is a line that I have often ignored that now makes so much more sense to me because of this book.

    Luke: What's in there?
    Yoda: Only what you take with you . ."

    In short, this really isn't a new idea. We were just kids trying to understand a very large picture the first time we heard about the "darkside"

    Then a line in AOTC bothered me. "The darkside clouds EVERYTHING" . How? If it doesn't exist. Then it occured to me . . does Yoda really look like he thinks its some dark part of the force, or that someone, somewhere, perhaps right in front of him, is doing the clouding? Look at the way he looks at Palpatine . . .

    Wheew* Thats All for now
  5. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    If you read some of the posts by Matt Stover, the author of TRAITOR, at the J.C. he gives some good insight, and some hints. However, he choses to let people think for themselves on this. The only thing I have really disagreed with him so far is that he does not seem to believe that the force has a "will" of its own. Then what/who is Ankakin?, and as you say can the force be unbalanced?

    This is a very dangerous speculation because you are only operating on 66% information. We don't KNOW what Lucas has planned for Episode III, but I'm betting that something addresses this issue. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sidious/Palpatine being Anakin's father (or, more to the point, genetic donor)... after all, he had to have had a backup plan for cloning somewhere -- look at Dark Empire...

    Think of force users consumed by the "darkside" (Anger, fear, hate, etc.) As a new species being introduced into a new environment. Slowly, the evil desire of their hearts, especially Palpatine, would consume the entire galaxy in turmoil. This is why Anakin's final act brings balance to the force. The "pests" are gone. Anakin also proves that the darkside was never a force controlling him, that it was within his power to choose his path all along.

    Thus, this is a truth that has been known to Luke all along. This is a truth that can not be described by words. Yet, a true danger does exist in "using the force". The explaination of a "darkside" is the safety gaurd.


    I will explain below, using your own analogy why it may not be just a safety guard...

    Finally, remember Luke going into the cave on Dagobah? For so long it became a popular notion that it was a "domain of evil" because of some supernatural dark force. Yet there is a line that I have often ignored that now makes so much more sense to me because of this book.

    Luke: What's in there?
    Yoda: Only what you take with you . ."

    In short, this really isn't a new idea. We were just kids trying to understand a very large picture the first time we heard about the "darkside"


    Well of COURSE it's what you take with you... if you accept that the powers of the Dark Side will tempt users (Exar Kun, Sidious, Vader, etc...) then of COURSE it's what you take with you. Someplace strong with the Dark Side of the Force will try and swerve you to its side, and those already filled with anger, rage, fear, etc. will not be able to resist (Luke in the cave). If you are a noble, just person -- both within and without -- then it's still what you bring with you, you're just not as apt to succumb to temptation. Whereas Luke failed his test as he still felt rage for Darth Vader having murdered his father as well as his mentor. So it was what he took with him -- the emotions, not the weapons -- that allowed Luke to be tempted. And clearly it was the Dark Side because it wasn't like the Force was tempting him to do evil when he was being infused with the Force during his training...
  6. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    Was it really the force tempting him though, or rather a manifistation of his anger at VADER for taking both his father and Ben Kenobi from him?


    To quote Vergere

    "That in itself is a question worth asking, hmmm?

    I mean I don't doubt the place has an echo of some dark power that perished there. Yet its not the force itself, but rather more like a scar burned by intense dark emotion. Just like some supernatural places here on earth.
  7. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Was it really the force tempting him though, or rather a manifistation of his anger at VADER for taking both his father and Ben Kenobi from him?

    Considering almost everything I've read on the subejct says it was tempting him, I'm gonna go with Dark Side Temptation for $1200, Alex... :)

    Also, we know (from WEG anyways) that the Dark Side was ACTIVELY FEEDING Luke during his battle with Vader on the Second Death Star. It was apparently one of the only known tmes when the Dark Side was actively fueling another living being WITHOUT being called upon first. Luke was strong enough to resist using the extra power that he had, and shut down his lightsaber to declare "You have failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi... like my father before me." So it wasn't like it was tempting Luke... it was actively trying to enforce its will ON Luke, only Luke was strong enough to resist having brushed with the Dark Side at the cave...
  8. beafet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2001
    star 5
    I am seeing a peace come about, not the destruction or surrender of the Vong
  9. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    Are you a profit? :p

    Error: only one message allowed per prophecy.
    :mad:
  10. JohnWilliamsFan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 3
    beafet,

    I cant see the Yuuzhan Vong making peace with anyone. Its just not like them. Seeing as how deaht doesnt seem to bother them that much, they would probably all die rather than surrender. There would have to be a massive change in Vong mentality, and I dont see that happening. Unless the lower castes lead a revolt and overthrow the upper castes. The Shamed Ones my have a higher value on their own lives.
  11. beafet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2001
    star 5
    well, nom anor, if he is still alive, seems to think like a human, maybe he will take over the vong.
  12. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    There obviously saving Nom Anor's death for HC5. Fifty credits has Luke slicing that ***** up.
  13. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Skywalk272...
    "Anakin also proves that the darkside was never a force controlling him, that it was within his power to choose his path all along."

    A main clarification. You can't use Anakin to prove that. The extent of what we know about him - the one constant - is that he was "seduced by the Dark Side."

    Seduction and enthralled are two different things. Kyp was enthralled. Vader was seduced.

    Anakin never surrendered his free will, regardless of how evil he became. So, it always was within his power to choose.

    Not so with Kyp (or Stormtroopers on Tatooine or Elian Sleazebaggano or anyone else like them), who had his free will ripped from him by the power of the Force being applied by some external power.
  14. GuessWhoseSockIAm Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2002
    I ThouGHt thERe waS No daRK sidE.
  15. beafet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2001
    star 5
    Wow, haven't seen this thread in a while.
  16. GRANDADMIRALAXLROSE Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 7
    I just reread it, it is so much better time #3

    Axl.
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