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PT OK Let's Settle This - Mace vs Sidious

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MidKnighT, Feb 1, 2017.

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Who Wins - Mace or Sidious?

  1. Mace Windu

    26 vote(s)
    44.1%
  2. Darth Sidious / Palpatine

    28 vote(s)
    47.5%
  3. A Never Ending Draw

    5 vote(s)
    8.5%
  1. mihaitzateo

    mihaitzateo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Actually in the room where Mace dueled Darth Sidious , Mace is pushing Darth Sidious in a corner.
    I do not think it was any furniture near.
    Besides, about throwing furniture, Lucas (2nd shareholder at Disney's, having now enough money to tell things clear) have said:
    "that is not the Force works" in TFA.
    There is a very complex thing, about dark side of the Force:
    -first, if you do not have anger and hate, you can not use the dark side of the Force. To have anger and hate, you need someone to do something
    against you. Anger and hate are coming from your subconscious.
    -so, when Darth Sidious is using the Force to throw objects at Master Yoda, he has lost his sword. Master Yoda have come to kill Darth Sidious.
    Darth Sidious is filled with fear to loose his life,his position as supreme leader so he gets filled with hatred towards Master Yoda and this gives him such strong Force abilities.
    When Master Yoda jumps near him,to kill him with the sword, Darth Sidious have even more hatred so that is why he does such an intense Force
    lightning to push the sword from Master Yoda hand.
    Force is not a button that you press to obtain what you want.
    Now, back to Mace, Darth Sidious is not having enough hate and anger against Mace to do an enough Force lightning to push the sword
    from Mace Windu hand.
    When Mace Windu decides to kill him, that gives Darth Sidious more anger and hate,so the next Force lightning is very intense.

    So, because Mace Windu have a quite defensive style, Darth Sidious would not have enough hate to defeat Mace Windu.
     
    J7Luke likes this.
  2. jeremiahj13

    jeremiahj13 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Sidious would win.... He annihilated Maul and Savage Oppress like nothing.

    He let Windu win the fight so he could make it look like the Jedi are overstepping their boundaries in front of Anakin to pull him deeper to the dark side.
     
    themoth, Nanaki and HevyDevy like this.
  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I think the disfigurement was an aspect that wasn't part of the plan. Just collateral.

    In the novelisation, just after the office fight, Palpatine looks at his reflection with some regret and states "And so the mask becomes the man. I am going to miss the face of Palpatine, but for our purposes this should suffice."
     
  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Btw, well said mikeximus .

    I agree that Palpatine wasn't expecting Anakin to ultimately pledge to the Sith before Anakin goes and reports him. He seems quite cool and calculated in the scene, as if he suspected Anakin to do as much.
     
    J7Luke, mikeximus and jeremiahj13 like this.
  5. jeremiahj13

    jeremiahj13 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Don't forget Sidious takes on Master Yoda later in the Movie and succeeds.
     
    thejeditraitor likes this.
  6. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012


    Right, Palpatine had no expectation that Anakin was just going to all of a sudden join just because Palpatine says he should, or because Palpatine says oh hey, I am the Sith Lord that is responsible for killing so many of your friends and fellow Jedi...

    Palpatine knew that once he told Anakin, it was going to further confuse Anakin. Palpatine knows that Anakin is still loyal to the Jedi because on a couple of occasions earlier in the movie Palpatine tests that loyalty...

    Palpatine tells Anakin to let Obi Wan die, Anakin refuses. Palpatine tries to blur the lines between the Jedi and the Sith and Anakin refuses to accept that. So now some people think that we get to the revelation and Sidious is expecting a different result after Anakin still demonstrates loyalty to the Jedi and their teachings?

    To me that final confrontation between Palpatine and Mace and his posse was set up for the sake of Anakin, because Palpatine knew he would be there either way. If that final confrontation was to get Mace and some of the more powerful Jedi out of the way for the initiation of Order 66, than Palpatine would simply have had a bunch of clones in his office ambush Mace and his group.

    However, Palpatine just sits there and waits, knowing they were going to be on their way, because that's how he set everything up to fall into place. He wants Anakin to see something specific...
     
    Darth Nerdling and HevyDevy like this.
  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No. More like "I am the Sith Lord who knows the secret to save your loved one", which is the whole point.
     
  8. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Mace Windu is far superior to Sidious in terms of lightsaber combat (he's supposed to be one of the best of all time) and was able to beat him by finding his shatterpoint. However, Sidious slightly beats Mace in terms of the Force and was able to hold him off with it. I don't think Sidious is dumb enough to throw a fight and risk his life based on the possibility that Anakin will join him, its not like him to be naive, so I have to agree with those who say that Mace legitimately defeated him. Sidious, however, was able to keep him at bay with the Force, and without Anakin, it may have stayed at a draw for a while.
     
    J7Luke and Erkan12 like this.
  9. Dagobahsystem

    Dagobahsystem Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Tough call, but I'd say Mace wins after 15 rounds and then only after Anakin barges in and throws a comatose Palpatine out the window or down a reactor shaft or whatever.
     
  10. Zenwalker

    Zenwalker Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    I think Sidious is more powerful overall, but as duelists, they are on even ground.
     
    Erkan12 likes this.
  11. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    i watched rots again recently and i have to say i really think that palpatine would win generally. he was delaying. i feel like he was talking to anakin through the force, saying: "you know don't you, that without me any chance of saving her will be lost" or whatever the exact wording. he just needed to delay until anakin arrived. his pitiful begging was totally an act too. so yeah, that's my opinion.

    also, i think he's the one who broke the glass on the window? on purpose? (i suspect)

    eta: and he is cowardly in his own way imo. this doesn't negate that. there's a sort of paranoia to him that i perceive. and he'd much rather have a powerful enforcer do a lot of the work. but he also knows when his opponent doesn't stand a chance against him, and those are the fight he enjoys (the ones he is sure he'll win).

    yoda had to kind of convince him to fight at the end of rots... but he was pretty sure yoda wouldn't win: "you won't defeat me." it was just later in his evil progression (e.g. rotj) that i think he went utterly insane and couldn't judge these things well beforehand anymore.
     
    Zenwalker likes this.
  12. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013

    The disfigurement actually serves Palpatine. That's his evidence that the Jedi attacked him. "Their attack has left me scarred and deformed." That evidence allows Palpatine to execute Order 66 and then, afterwards, have the Senate give their approval for it. It also convinces them that he needs to be made Emperor since the Jedi have become the Republic's new enemy.

    Turning Anakin to the dark side is not a trivial matter either. That's vitally important to his plan. He knows that the Chosen One is the only one prophesized as being able to kill him. If he can switch the Chosen One to a Sith, then he has neutralized the Chosen One. (Up to this point, since the Rule of Two, nobody had gone full dark side and come back.)

    Sith also want their apprentices to be as powerful as possible, even more powerful than their masters. This allows the Sith line to grow more and more powerful, since each apprentice ends up being more powerful than his master or getting replaced with someone who is a better apprentice (like how Palpatine wants to replace Vader with Luke). That is Palpatine's highest goal: Sith ruling forever. He even tells this to Yoda before their battle. "You will not defeat me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." So, Palpatine's admitting -- Anakin someday will become more powerful than me and kill me, but Palpatine doesn't consider that defeat. He considers that victory since the Sith line will go on with a more powerful Force user.


    The entire confrontation between the posse and Palpatine is a set-up. He knows that the Mace and some of the Jedi are planning to depose him. He even knows the next step in their plan, taking over the Senate. He even knows that they've told Anakin to spy on him.

    He reveals Grievous's location b/c that will lead to a confrontation with the Jedi. He reveals to Anakin that he's a Sith to turn him, but he has a backup plan too (b/c he's a crafty devil). If Anakin doesn't turn, he wants Anakin to tell the Jedi that he's a Sith. That's why he encourages Anakin to tell them. That's why he says, "But you don't know their intentions (as in overthrowing Palpatine)." Anakin's response -- "I will learn the truth of this matter soon enough" -- indicates that Anakin is thinking the same thing (as in "I will learn the truth that whether or not the Jedi will overthrow you by extraconstitutional means"). So again, he knows revealing that he's a Sith will also lead to confrontation with the Jedi.

    People wonder why Palpatine loses his lightsaber if he's so powerful. Well, he loses it the instant before Anakin enters the room, making it look like Mace is about to murder an unarmed man. It serves his plan.

    The whole thing is a set up for Anakin's sake. Palpatine created the entire situation so that they would come. And think about it. It wouldn't make any sense to encourage someone who can likely kill you to come and fight you. That would make Palpatine an idiot and undermine his entire character. Furthermore, if he had any doubt that he could kill Mace, he would've just called in a thousand clone troopers to blow the posse away the instant they entered his office.


    Furthermore, as has been pointed out, Lucas states that Palpatine is faking weakness. That means he could've kept blasting Mace. In fact, the novelization says that Mace was about to be overwhelmed before Palpatine stopped. However, Palpatine didn't have to stop since he was just playing weak, and so, if he hadn't played weak, then he clearly would've overwhelmed Mace.

    Then, Palpatine was without a lightsaber in the 2nd half of his battle with Yoda and Yoda still had his lightsaber. So, he just blasted it out of Yoda's hand -- easily (and don't judge Yoda by his size!). Palpatine could've blasted Mace's saber out of his hand too. He was just putting on an act to force Anakin to take pity on him, with him saying, "Oh, I'm weak... I'm weak... I can't hold out any longer." He's not weak, and Lucas makes this clear, and the novelization makes it clear was that Mace was the one who was about to give out.


    Now, it may be true that Mace is equal with a saber or just below Palpatine, but in the end, that doesn't really matter. Palpatine's force powers are just too powerful. He only pretends to be powerless to gain Anakin's pity, then after Anakin intervenes, Palpatine bursts back to life and fries Mace -- which again shows that Palpatine was just faking weakness because that would be the only thing that could explain how he suddenly got this extra power to fry Mace full force.


    Crap! I didn't mean to write so much, but it always turns out this way when we get to this subject! :p
     
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    But that's not what happened. After Mace kicks his lightsaber out of his hand, he puts him under arrest. If Palpatine was pretending to be unarmed, why would he try to kill Mace with lightning in front of Anakin? It doesn't make sense.

    He only pretends to be weak when the lightning is reflected back to him in order to force Anakin to make a choice.
     
  14. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013

    Why? Because Anakin said, "I will learn the truth of this matter." (as in, I don't trust the Jedi, they may be trying to overthrow Palpatine and the Senate (which Mace talks about doing))

    Then, when Anakin enters he sees an unarmed Palpatine with Mace pointing a saber at his chest, and then Palpatine says, "See, I told you. The Jedi are taking over."

    It gives the perfect visual proof that Anakin that what Palpatine said is true -- that the Jedi are traitors and trying to take over Palpatine. (And in a technical sense, the Jedi are traitors; they're just morally correct.)

    However, since Anakin doesn't intervene when Palpatine makes that plea (he was hoping he'd stab Mace then and there), Palpatine then decides to zap Mace so that he can make it seem that he's about to die, even though he isn't, since Anakin will have to intervene at that point because he thinks he'll lose his chance to save Padme.
     
  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    He was turning Palpatine over, which meant he was going to be arrested.

    Still, that doesn't explain it. If he wanted Anakin to believe that Mace was about to kill an unarmed man, there's no reason to show that he's not unarmed after all. And Mace at that point was only arresting him.
     
  16. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    When Anakin returns to Palpatine's chambers, his pov is that he's decided that he needs to save Palpatine for Padme's sake.

    Palpatine has also caused Anakin to doubt the Jedi.

    Then, when Anakin shows up at the door, Mace is moving towards Palpatine with his saber pointed at Palpatine who is on the ground and unarmed, and Palpatine is saying, "Don't you see. The Jedi are taking over."

    Don't you think seeing that, with Anakin's mistrust of the Jedi and desire to save Palpatine, would help convince an already biased Anakin that the Jedi really are taking over?


    And remember, this gambit still doesn't convince Anakin to take Palpatine's side. So, even though Palpatine tries to trick Anakin in this way, it doesn't work. It just leaves Anakin confused about whose side he should take.

    It's only when Palpatine allows Mace to try to take his life, by playing weak, that Anakin chooses to intervene.


    So, Palpatine sets it up a scenario that puts an idea in Anakin's head when he enters: Mace marching at Palpatine with his saber pointed at him and Palpatine saying that the Jedi are taking over.

    Then, when Mace swings to kill Palpatine, this confirms this idea for Anakin. Because of this, Anakin doesn't think "Mace is about to kill a Sith lord." Instead, Anakin thinks to himself: "Mace is committing an act of treason."

    That's why Anakin yells out, "No, he must stand trial!"
     
    oncafar likes this.
  17. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    i remember from my uncanny interpretation of facial expressions (ummm) that anakin didn't seem to be all that swayed by palpatine's pleas (as though he kind of thought they were a bit bs--i mean he kind of has known palpatine for years in a way). but i agree Darth Nerdling that it wasn't until mace demonstrated his intent to kill palpatine ("he's too dangerous to be left alive") that anakin snapped.

    did he snap because of his own displeasure with himself for *doing the same thing* in the beginning of the film with dooku? i kind of think so... he probably vowed to himself he'd never do such a thing again and it caused him to harp more on the jedi code for the rest of the film.
     
  18. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    it's because he felt it was against the jedi way AND mostly because he needs palps to save padme. the problem with that is that the jedi are sworn to destroy the sith and palps doesn't know squat. if anakin had more time or a clearer head he may have seen this. or not.
     
  19. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2005
    I always thought he should have called in John Travolta and got medieval on Sidious.
     
  20. sith_rising

    sith_rising Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2004
    I understood that reference!
     
    MrMojoRisin likes this.
  21. Pain and Suffering

    Pain and Suffering Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2015
    It seems obvious that Sideous threw the duel. After all, he lost his lightsaber pretty much right before Anakin came in. That just seems too convenient of timing, especially knowing that this is the guy who wants Anakin as his apprentice and has been manipulating him for years. Not to mention he manipulated both sides of an entire war and had both sides playing his game the entire time. And I'm supposed to belief that Palpatine lost conveniently before Anakin walked in? Right...

    Maybe if the duel had played out fully, Mace might have won, but I still think Sideous would have come out on top anyway.
     
  22. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    To me, the "Jedi are taking over" plot worked until the point that Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin and after that, it should not have come back.
    This reveal makes it very clear to Anakin that the Jedi were totally right in being worried about Palpatine and that Palpatine would try to seize power. Something that even Anakin himself says when he talks to Mace.

    And in this scene Anakin sees and hears Mace saying very clearly that he is arresting Palpatine, something that Anakin was all for. Then he sees Palpatine trying very clearly to KILL Mace.
    Had Palpatine not put up a fight, Mace would have arrested him and Anakin would have been fine with that and that was apparently not treason in his eyes.
    Also, Anakin knows that Mace went with three other Jedi to arrest Palpatine but they are nowhere to be seen. And the most logical conclusion that Anakin can make at that time is that Palpatine killed them.
    So Palpatine killed three Jedi and is trying to kill a fourth and only after that does Mace switch to kill instead of arrest.

    I can buy that Palpatine tries to "The Jedi are evil" plot but he sees that it doesn't work so instead he forces the issue by goading Mace into trying to kill him. That Anakin interferes here works if the reason is saving Padme, which it mostly is.
    And I think the film should have kept it as the sole reason.
    Anakin is desperate to save Padme and faced with the possibility of loosing the one person that could prevent that, he acts.

    I also think that Anakin lines of "I agree, the jedi will move against the senate.." should not have been in the film as they make no sense.
    Anakin KNOWS there is not a Jedi plot, he saw Mace trying to arrest Palpatine, even after Palpatine had most likely killed three other Jedi.
    As I've said, had Palpatine not resisted arrest, Anakin would have happily gone along with arresting him.

    To me, the film suffered a bit with Anakins turn and the reason for it being changed quite late in the game.
    Originally, he was at Palpatine's side when Mace and co entered the room, him having already sort of sided with him due to his lack of faith in the Jedi.
    Changing the turn to be more about Padme and less about the Jedi I have no real problem with but I think they should have gone all the way and removed the Jedi plot totally once Palpatine reveals himself.

    Anakin can still stop Mace because he can't let Palpatine die and he goes along with what Palpatine tells him because of his promises to save Padme.

    And I would also get rid of Palpatine admitting that he didn't actually have the power that he talked about earlier. That Anakin doesn't react to that at all is really odd and I can't understand why Palpatine made this admission.
    He knows better than most how impatient Anakin is and that he is under a lot of stress right now.
    Adding to that by admitting that he lied about all his promises seems a bit stupid for an otherwise clever Palpatine. He has nothing to gain by this.
    At worst, Anakin becomes pissed off and attacks him for lying and at best he simply looks less knowledgeable than he used to.
    Even he doesn't know this secret, not telling Anakin is the smart thing and just let Anakin do more and more dark things to make him more and more a thrall to the Dark Side.
    Palpatine could even be planning to let Padme know about what Anakin did, knowing how that would horrify her and cause Anakin to go off the rails.

    I also think that the reason Mace gives to kill Palpatine instead of arresting him are also odd.
    He knew that Palpatine controlled the senate and the courts BEFORE going to arrest him so why he should try to kill him for that is just head scratching.
    I think it would have worked better with Mace simply saying, "He is too powerful, no prison can hold him, I have to kill him."

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  23. JediKnight234

    JediKnight234 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2017

    have u seen clone wars by ant chance?
    pretty sure he has two when he duels maul and savage opress
     
    thejeditraitor likes this.
  24. JediKnight234

    JediKnight234 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2017

    yep. i agree.
     
  25. Anakin.Skywalker

    Anakin.Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2016
    No, I haven't. That explains my ignorance. :)