OK, maybe I'm way off base here....

Gundark probably knows the rules better then GS so yes, if it comes to this usualy there is a issue that is being ignored, so it must be aired publicly.

 

I've been banned by the best.

 

You did say to me that the unban requests for that name have been sent back with nothing written. I would agree that a response is deserved.

 

As far as I see it, this thread is discussing policy. A couple possible policies, in fact.

1. Alcohol on the boards
2. LMM and other mods who get a little high on their horse/authority, and disrupt the community.
3. Members being picked on, and then having it all moved to Private IMs where things don't have to get done, and the mods can save face.

I am not saying that this happens all the time, but I felt it should be brought up, in public. I used to be here a lot. Things are obviously different now, and that can be OK, but I still think there are some issues that the mods and community need to discuss, publicly.

 

I don't have much to say because I feel I've already made myself clear in the TPM banner thread. But apparently to some people making one's self clear is also a sign of arrogance.

I will say though that Cetera felt the need to flame me with this gem, "You, sir, are an idiot."

Question: Why am I an idiot?

 

Because everything on the internet is true.

 

Because you made a banner for a movie and left out a major character and added one from a different movie?

 

My entire post was:

Again, I have to agree with Whimper. Your opinion should have no bearing on the banner. Why don't you put Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker in the banner? The whole series is about Darth Vader, and Luke is Anakin/Vader's son who eventually saves him. So why not have them in there?

The Answer: Because they don't belong. They aren't in the movie. And, as someone mentioned above, it isn't so much the banner that is a problem, it is your attitude, and your arrogance that I have a problem with. You seem to have an elitist attitude toward the boards. Because you are a "staff member" you are right, and your opinion is automatically correct and well excepted by all. You, sir, are an idiot. Even when your opinion leads you to do totally non-sensical things, you claim it is justified because TF.N trusts your judgement in such areas.

Perhaps it is time they stopped?

The part in question is:

You seem to have an elitist attitude toward the boards. Because you are a "staff member" you are right, and your opinion is automatically correct and well excepted by all. You, sir, are an idiot. Even when your opinion leads you to do totally non-sensical things, you claim it is justified because TF.N trusts your judgement in such areas.

I was not flaming you. I merely pointed out your idiotic and foolish idea that because you are a staff member, you are right, and everyone else's opinion, and the facts brought up in their defense, be damned. Apparently I wasn't the only one who saw you in this light, even among fellow mods.

 

Addressing only the flame accusation, I agree with LMM. Even when you tried to explain yourself, it still came off as a flame. Calling something someone did as "idiotic" is a flame. To others, his decision may have been fine. Your opinion is different than LMM's. And that opinion is that it was an idiotic move. That's a flame, plain and simple. I'd stop now trying to explain why you said it. I think you may just dig a deeper hole.

 

Fair enough, I'll quit now then. Apologies to LMM for flaming him.

 

Cetera, in the future, add 'IMO' in front of everything that may be a construed as a flame. Note that the admins, IMO, will consider anything a flame if it means they get to avoid the real topic.

 

EDIT: IMO I agree with echo.

[image=http://members.rogers.com/alienacid/STOLEN.gif]

okay seriously Mr Sapient he didnt say he was a idiot he explained his attitude that he is staff and does no wrong is idiotic.

Calling people on there arrogance is looked down upon here though.. forgot about that sorry there was logic brought into this .

 

And Wattowatta's thread about the closing of PB's "______ is passed out on my couch" thread. Now apparently PB isn't in high favor around here. And apparently threads mentioning alcohol are no longer allowed (which seems pretty ridiculous, but there you have it). The point is, it looks suspicously like the thread was closed simply because PreacherBoy was involved in it a long time ago, and you can't have his name running around on the boards causing strife. That may not be what it was, but that is what it looks like to me.

I closed Watto's thread b/c it's standard policy that if you have a problem with a particular mod, then you PM that mod and work it out between the two of you. You have a better chance that way of getting the thread reopenined. And, for the record, I personally like Watto and think that he brings up good points, and don't really have an opinion either way about PBoy.

 

Recently Son of the Sons closed a thread in the JCC explaining to another member that the content might 'scare off' newer members.

I submit that the attitudes displayed by Carter and LMM recently are what would truly be most intimidating to new users. I understand -- and support -- that the administration has dictatorial control over these forums, and they have every right to make whatever decisions and take any action they deem necessary. I would simply hope that the staff would at least pretend for the membership that its concerns carry some weight. Perhaps those few staff members that post here do not care about the image that they present of themselves, but it would be disheartening to believe that the entire staff holds the contempt for the membership that these two do.

The post exchange in question began with a reasonable question about the banner design that was immediately dismissed by the staff with contempt. In response to a statement of another staff member earlier this week, being paid for something does not validate your opinion, nor does it invalidate another's.

 

Staff members don't get paid and there is no money involved here. Speaking for myself as a TFN graphic designer, my payment comes in the form of exposure and compliments about my graphics. I also appreciate the criticisms and the negative responses because it allows me to get different perspectives on my work and hopefully goes towards creating better designs. But things like Whimper's "All I'm saying is that your banner pretty much sucks. That's all. Sucks. Really does. Like- really sucktacular" or Cetera's "You, sir, are an idiot" doesn't contribute anything useful other than pointing out their general dislike towards me or my work. The old standby is true in my realm in that you simply can't please everyone and I can only hope to please the majority of people who view my work.

I don't think there's a single staff member that holds any contempt towards the members. We're all human beings here. I bleed just like you when I get cut. The only thing that sets us apart are our titles and the perception people have about us. I get several PMs daily asking for me to close threads, look at artwork, or just asking a question and I reply to each one doing what's usually being asked of me. I try to conduct myself the best way I can under the circumstances that also include living a real life and if anyone has a question or problem with me they can approach me directly via PM, email or here in Communications.

I just don't appreciate someone calling me an idiot because they don't like my banner, because it's a matter of taste and opinion not intelligence.

 

*sigh*

Once again, your banner really wasn't the crux of the situation. Yeah, I don't really care for the fact that Dooku is in it. I happen to think that is a lousy idea. Oh well. I'll get over it, die from it, or you'll change it. Whatever.

The real problem that I saw was your attitude. You acted like it was your way, or the highway, and that is simply because you happen to be a "staff member." I believe that that kind of behavior is extremely non-intelligent, non-conducive to good relations on the boards, especially between mods and members, and just generally uncalled for.

The point is, I don't care about your banner. My issue is the way you behaved. At least one of us has apologized, and the other continues to ignore the situation and their own participation in bringing it about. I think I know which I am.

 

Well I do have a problem with the banner. If someone asked me to make a banner for a 'Batman Returns' forum, I wouldn't put Two-Face, or the Joker in it, and I would put in the Penguin and Catwoman. It just makes sense. If I put some other characters in it, I'd expect the owner of the site to have the sense to reject it. It's got nothing to do with opinion or taste and everything to do with intelligence. The banner not reflecting the subject of the banner is not intelligent.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how by my clearly explaining something comes off as the wrong attitude or as "your way, or the highway"? Do you want me to lie and tell you that I consulted a certain number of regular users and/or mods about the banner while I was making it? As far as I know nothing I said should have painted a picture of arrogance of 'my way/highway'. While some people were saying that my opinion didn't matter I clarified it for them in a distinct, uninsulting way that my opinion is the crux by which my banners are created. So instead of what the majority of the users did, which was give their opinions of the banner and move on, you and Whimper decide to hang around and drill it into me for god knows what purpose.

While Qui_Gon_Jim23 talks of the attitudes of me and Carter as being intimidating to new users, I submit that it's likely the attitudes of oldbies like you Cetera that not only come off as intimidating, but also paint a false picture of so many things around here. I'm not trying to blame anyone for anything, but look at your reactions under the circumstances.

 

While I agree with you totally, Echo, that banner wasn't the chief concern of mine posting this to the communication forum. I don't think the banner was a good idea. But oh well.

However, with me the real problem was how the person in question acted, and then refused to acknowledge that he acted this way, and is even now continuing to beat around the bush, try to direct attention toward the banner, and away from his responsibility for his actions as a mod. That is the real problem for me. And stuff like this does tend to happen (at least in the eyes of the forum members) more often than we'd really like or that the mods would admit to.

What I would really like to see occasionally, (and this does happen too, sometimes) is for the mods to cowboy up and admit their mistake, correct the situation, and strive to not repeat it. You wouldn't think that would be too hard. And in some cases, PMs are the best method to resolve certain issues. But it seems to me that a lot of the time they just remove the whole "drama" from the public eye (and possibly responsibities), the situation remains unchanged, and things continue to be less than good.

 

And my mistake was... what explaining things?

 

Dammit, LMM, you are really starting to aggravate me. You own words prove my point. You continue to think that you just told it like it was.

"by my clearly explaining something"

What you clearly explained was this. I am a staff at TF.N. Therefore, what I say goes, irregardless of anyone else's opinion or whatever facts may point to the contrary.

You were being arrogant, and elitest. You were saying you are better than all the other members simply because you are "staff." That is untrue, and in my humlbe opinion, inexcusable.

These are all things you said in the thread in question. Let me know which you thought were wonderously apporpriate and humble, as well as conducive to good relations on the boards:

Eh it works for me and I have a very discerning eye for these sort of things. It's seldom that I actually am a fan of my own work but this banner is an exception. Sidious is there, Jar Jar is there too(in the reply graphic anyway), the Trade Federation is well represented...you are looking at the banner aren't you, Whimper?

As for the inclusion of Dooku, like I said earlier, the saga is almost finished and things will slowly start to merge in terms of graphics around here because the story is close to being complete. Dooku beget Qui-Gon who inturn beget Obi-Wan who later beget Anakin and I wanted to show this in a subtle way. Besides, the only place you can see Dooku and Qui-Gon together is in this banner.


Um, I'm a TFN staff member who creates banners so my opinion is important if someone asks me to make a new banner or if I decide to make one on my own accord. I'm offered the opportunity to create things and that's what I do with little to no input from anyone else because they trust my instincts for these sort of things which is why I'm a part of the staff.

So if anything "belongs" to anyone around here it would be the TFN staff that owns it.


I'm actually enjoying all this for the simple fact that I knew by adding Dooku to the banner it would cause some controversy. I'm glad some of you feel passionate about this seemingly insignificant matter because it indicates you folks are actually paying attention.

I sense a lot of anger though, good thing none of it is originating from me.


Deny that you threw the staff member commment in our faces to prove you are right, and only you are right, and no one else's opinion matters. Deny that you don't really care what any one else's opinion is on the matter (except for those who agree with you) and that you didn't try to explain anything besides the fact that it was your opinion, that your opinion was right, and that was the final story.

You continue to refuse to take responsiblity for your actions. Quite frankly, I don't see how you are a mod. I don't care how hard you try to do your duties, or how much you bleed just like everyone else when cut. Take responsiblity for yourself, for God's sake!!!

Hey, I admit, I called you an idiot. Not a smart thing, done while angry, and also not conducive to good relations. Hey, I'm human too. But I admit it, apologize, in public, and move on.

You continue to fail to admit any wrong doing, and continually try to direct blame elsewhere. IMHO that is discraceful conduct.

I don't care who you are, what you do, what your station is in life. Stand tall, do your best, and take responsibility for yourself and your actions. That goes for members, mods, admins, and joe schmoe on the street.

And yeah, I admit I have been a bit gruff here in this thread. People don't listen to you unless you are already well known, or make your point with a little "drama." Also, I think this is an important topic that affects everyone here on the JC. It deserves to be heard in a public place.

It was not my intent to flame LMM, and I didn't make excuses. I explained my thoughts on the situations, and apologized. Is LMM too big of a mod to do likewise?

 

What you clearly explained was this. I am a staff at TF.N. Therefore, what I say goes, irregardless of anyone else's opinion or whatever facts may point to the contrary.

You were being arrogant, and elitest. You were saying you are better than all the other members simply because you are "staff." That is untrue, and in my humlbe opinion, inexcusable.


You this and you that. Quit presuming to tell other people what they are saying, thinking or doing. Now, you can say that's how it came across to you personally, but to presume that's what LMM meant to say is a bit much. People can make their own judgments about things. It doesn't help your cause to tell people what they are and aren't doing. I suggest just saying how you understood something.

 

KnightWriter, I salute you.

 

Another point I would like to make, and I tried making it earlier, but was doing too many points in one post, is about the PMing of mods.

Correct me if I am wrong about this, but I believe that is was originally PreacherBoy who started the practice of having people PM him about various things. A lot of people didn't like the way he was extrememly blunt, and said what he thought. Instead of making a spectacle, he would allow them to talk to him privately, so they could each explain their viewpoints in a calm manner, and resolve the issue.

This was started because there was a lot of mod bashing (specifically PB) on the boards, and there was a lot of hype saying he was an evil hacker. He dispelled a lot of rumors this way, patched a lot of things up, and was able to be an effective mod.

Now it seems that a lot of people PM mods and admins, only to have their problems ignored. The mods use the PMing as a shield to hide behind so they don't have to take responsibility for their actions in public. They don't have to lost face. I am sure most of you don't do this, or don't even try to do this, but I am also sure that this does happen from time to time. I also want to point out that IMHO that this is wrong, and should be considered a grave mod offense. It isn't intended to allow mods to hide from the problems, or shirk their responsibilities or duties.

Just a few more of my two cents.

 

Gotcha GS. I've been around the block. I know the rules. I used the whole PM method. I filled out my unban requests like a good soilder.
-- gundark


Huh? Does the Jedi Council make you feel like you are in the military?