ok people..the smoking Gun...your take on Gun control...

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by darthmomm, Oct 29, 2001.

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  1. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Because we have a helluva lot more people, Tukafo. Just the Chicagoland area is almost the size of Holland, and has a little more than half the number of people.
  2. Gutter_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2001
    star 3
    I think he was talking preportionally.
  3. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    It's a lot funner to just 'misunderstand' and make people dig up stats ;)
  4. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Yes, I too would like to have us wait and see, in terms of gun control laws and enforcement, but since we have over 20,000 gun laws, it seems to me that people just are not willing to see how well they work, they just want instant results...though misplaced they are.
    I would like our government to work the way it is supposed to...but it doesn't

    Ciou-See the Sig
  5. Ardens_Furore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    Although I guess I agree with the mandatory gun training classes I will have to disagree with you on this extreme stance, because the world will not be a safer place with everyone having guns.

    It will be. Nobody would ever want to kidnap a kid if every kid has a gun. No one would break into houses and try to steal things for fear of getting shot. I wouldn't want to piss someone off on the road because the other guy has a gun, and the other guy would be afraid of me too, because I have a gun. Arguments would never end in violence because everyone is afraid of being shot. There won't be anymore bullying at school, because a child could shoot the bully and that will be the end of it. Citizens will shoot criminals and kill them all. Actually, I should make an amendment. All citizens MUST prove their worth by killing 5 criminals. This will replace the test to kill two attackers.

    I agree - arm everyone to the teeth for a safer saner world!

    I love the idea of mandating that vehicles be tanks and a pool of fighters be available for all to use. First, the government will have to be careful to remain non-oppressive, but more importantly, citizens can participate in the defense of their country. This is better than the draft, because people like playing with weapons anyway, but wouldn't like being in the army.

    I think I should make another amendment. Instead of nuclear missiles in every house, it should be a tank and a fighter or bomber. Nuclear missiles may emit radiation and cause cancer in the population. So an armed fighter/bomber (with high powered bombs) will replace it without the risk of cancer. Scratch that, an assault helicopter is better. This is because it may be used against armed criminals and others who may abuse their right to have weapons.
  6. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    "When will you stop calling European states monarchies that are governed by kings?"

    The Weimar Republic was very much a glorified monarchy. Now of course this isn't the case, but up until WWII Europe was still living under the old ways. WWI came about because of the family monarchy fued which had been brewing for 70 years.

    As for the gun control I agree. Violent crime is way less then it is in the U.S.

  7. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    the population in Europe is not as little as many would like to believe.

    US population: 280 Million
    Germany 86 Mio.
    UK 60 Mio
    France 60 Mio.

    Overall Europe has a population of about 350 Mio, higher than the US.

    What is my point? I think I forgot
  8. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Daily Policy Digest

    Crime And Gun Control Issues

    Wednesday, August 08, 2001


    An increase in firearms crimes in Britain has authorities questioning whether gun-control laws there -- among the strictest in the world -- have been misguided.


    Criminal use of handguns in Britain has increased by almost 40 percent in three years, according to a report by the Center for Defense Studies at King's College.
    A ban on handguns was enacted in 1997 and more than 162,000 registered firearms were turned in during an amnesty period of several months after the ban was enacted.
    But officials estimate that at least 250,000 illegal weapons are still in circulation.
    Armed robberies involving handguns have increased dramatically in recent years.
    Although the "bobby" on the beat still patrols unarmed, specially trained armed response units of each police force are being called out more often. The number of incidents in which armed officers have responded has increased two-fold -- from about 6,000 in 1994 to 12,000 in recent years, according to media reports.

    Source: Ellen Hale, "British Fear Rise of 'Gun Culture,'" USA Today, August 7, 2001
    -------------------------------
    Visitors to Switzerland are astonished to see guns and rifles being carried openly in public -- particularly when there is a "shooting festival" occurring nearby. In fact, Switzerland has more firepower per person than any other country in the world -- yet it is one of the safest places on Earth.

    In 1997, there were 87 intentional homicides and 102 attempted homicides in the entire country -- with firearms involved in 91 of the 189 total cases.

    Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000 population and a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000.

    Almost half of those crimes were committed by non-resident foreigners -- whom locals call "criminal tourists."

    By comparison, Britain -- which has strict gun control laws -- had a homicide rate in 1994 of 1.4 per 100,000 and a robbery rate of 116 per 100,000.
    Although Switzerland has local shooting contests for boys and girls ages 12 to 16, there have been no school massacres in the country.

    All males between the ages of 20 and 42 are required to keep rifles and pistols at home for purposes of national defense. Military historians do not doubt that this was a big reason Hitler chose to avoid Switzerland in favor of conquering countries which had strict gun control laws -- as well as registration lists which facilitated confiscation of firearms.

    Source: Stephen P. Halbrook (attorney and author), "Where Kids and Guns Do Mix," Wall Street Journal, June 10, 1999.
    --------------------------
    And this one because the hypocracy is sooo funny, since beaurocracies are likely to do this:

    The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) is suing gun makers for marketing practices it says turned black communities into "war zones." However, Insight magazine points out that NAACP leaders have a mixed record when it comes to guns.

    In 1957, in Monroe, N.C., 60 armed blacks from the local NAACP chapter repelled a Ku Klux Klan motorcade after Klansmen peppered the house of NAACP Vice President Albert E. Perry with bullets.

    In 1991, the Virginia Conference of the NAACP led a coalition that defeated efforts by a Richmond housing board to ban 14,000 residents from keeping legal guns in their homes.

    Virginia state NAACP President Jack W. Gravely said "It is an injustice to public-housing tenants to restrict their right of self-defense as if they were the perpetrators of crime."

    And in 1990, then-Connecticut state treasurer and current NAACP Treasurer Franciso L. Borges directed a $25 million investment of public pension funds into Colt's Manufacturing.
    Source: Frank J. Murray, "NAACP Suit Can Backfire," Insight, August 16, 1999.

    Ciou-See the Sig


  9. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    TPMrules23:

    My problem is this: I've done nothing illegal or wrong, yet I am asked to pay the price for repeat criminals and nutcases?

    This is the problem with a lot of the current laws.

    I personally have no problem with an INSTANT background check to weed out those who have been convicted of violent crimes. Nor do I object to concealed-carry laws like those in Florida, Virginia, and 31 other states. I support strong penalties for those who misuse guns.

    But as for me, while I feel for those who have lost loved ones, I do not see how giving up my rights helps the situation any. If anything, it is a waste of time and energy that could be spent getting the violent criminals off the streets, and unable to harm decent people.

    Because, to be very blunt, I am NOT going to let myself be railroaded. The laws ought to concentrate on the people causing the problem, not an inanimate object that has no choice in the matter.
  10. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Conservatives: "Gun control = bad, drug control = good."

    Liberals: "Gun control = good, drug control = bad."

    Does anyone see the irony of this?
  11. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Nope. Gun's protect people/society, so keeping guns away is harmful. Drugs hurt society, so keeping them away is good.
  12. Wedges_Wingman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 2001
    star 2
    What StarFire said, but reversed :p

    ;)

    -J

    EDIT:

    Actually 'military historians' reckon that Hitler left Switzerland well alone because it is incredibly hard to assault mountain ranges when all the tunnels and passes have been mined and blown. Quite apart from the fact that it was a useful haven for Nazis to stash their war booty....
  13. Gutter_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2001
    star 3
  14. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Nope. Gun's protect people/society, so keeping guns away is harmful. Drugs hurt society, so keeping them away is good. "

    Can you honestly not see the hypocracy of that statement? I don't have the statistics for number of people killed by marijuana vs. number of people killed by guns, but I have a slight suspicion more were killed by the latter.
    I will grant you one thing, though. Prohibition doesn't work, in either case.
  15. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Drugs don't have to kill people to do serious damage.
    Getting high has never saved anybody's life. Packing heat (without even 'dispensing heat') has saved MANY lives. And don't make me dig up statistics, because you know it's true.
  16. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    "Nope. Gun's protect people/society, so keeping guns away is harmful. Drugs hurt society, so keeping them away is
    good."

    I pray to God that that statement was meant to be ironic. Nobody in their right mind can mean this seriously
  17. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Yes, people in their right mind can believe that, they're called the Founding Fathers.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  18. RiggsWolfe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2002
    star 2
    Ok, to put my two cents in.

    The 2nd Ammendment. It is about keeping a militia primarily, and was written at a time when Muskets were the norm. If you wish to heed the 2nd ammendment, we should all be issued muskets.

    Finally, a little factoid, the car has killed more people in the century or so since it was invented than guns have in the entire history of the US.

    Don't ban guns, ban CARS
  19. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    what a comparison!!!

    Cars have a purpose. The purpose is transport.

    Guns have also a purpose. It's to hurt somebody or to kill somebody.

    Do you really believe owning guns protects society from crimes? The US are the only country in the West to have liberal gun laws yet its murder rate (per capita) is 5 times higher than the UK, 9 times higher than Germany and 17 (!) times higher than Japan.

    I wonder why?
  20. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Obviously the combination of people packing heat and the death penalty has scared all the criminals away in America.
    Hasn't it?
  21. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    "Guns have also a purpose. It's to hurt somebody or to kill somebody."

    They do so effectively thus they cause fear if someone is threatened with one, so criminals will have them. Also they have a dual purpose, that being defending yourself from those that would harm you with/without a gun. It's deterent power is enough to give you the advantage. So they need to be able to own one if need be.

    "Do you really believe owning guns protects society from crimes? The US are the only country in the West to have liberal gun laws yet its murder rate (per capita) is 5 times higher than the UK, 9 times higher than Germany and 17 (!) times higher than Japan."

    Yes, so there isn't really another western country to compare us to is there, but there is Sweden on the East, whose households have at least one gun and that is in every home, yet their murder rate is way lower than ours.
    What do you mean murder? Is that in defense? Is it pre-meditated? Is it accidental? Is it with adults, children teens, gangmembers, between criminals...???

    Either that or explain your facts a little more, and its credentials and where you got them from. Anyone can make up any facts for anything, 14% of all people know that.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  22. RiggsWolfe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2002
    star 2
    Tufako,

    if you read my post, you saw I brought up a point about the 2nd ammendment most gun people don't like to admit, then went on to my thing about cars which was mostly intended to be tongue in cheek.

  23. Leto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, so there isn't really another western country to compare us to is there, but there is Sweden on the East, whose households have at least one gun and that is in every home, yet their murder rate is way lower than ours.

    Excuse me Moriarte but I´m a Swede and I don´t own a gun. None of my friends owns a gun. None of my relatives owns a gun.
    Well, maybe some of them has an airgun, but I don´t think that counts.

    Check your facts better next time or pick another small country you think no one will have a clua about. Oh yeah, Sweden is a western country.
  24. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    I think our friend actually means Switzerland as they have very liberal gun laws

    Here are some figures (ironically taken from a pro-gun website)

    http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html


    Some other figures for 1991:

    Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people, 1991 figures):
    United States 24.4
    Canada 2.6
    Sweden 2.3
    Norway 2.3
    Finland 2.3
    Denmark 2.2
    United Kingdom 2.0
    Netherlands 1.2
    Germany 0.9
    Japan 0.5

    Looks even worse than the figures I remembered
  25. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Guns don't kill people. Lunatics who own guns kill people.
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