ok people..the smoking Gun...your take on Gun control...

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by darthmomm, Oct 29, 2001.

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  1. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Oh woeless me they're taking away my liberties!! You have some nerve talking about liberties. It wasn't that long ago catholics couldn't vote in Ireland. It wasn't that long ago when black people couldn't vote. There are still countries today when people are afraid to speak out freely, vote for the people they want to vote for. And here you are bitching and moaning about your right to own a dangerous weapon. Surprise Surprise!! It's no big deal! Its nothing for the founding fathers to turn in their grave over. Your not in the Wild West. Your not John Wayne. Your not Max Payne. YOU DON'T NEED YOUR GUN!! Unless your planning on a bank robbery, murder, suicide, or blasting away someone trying to take your dinner money.
  2. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    Plus the unique thing about America is that the ability to change is possible.

    America has always been about reform and changing the way things are. Why not modify the right to bear arms and make it fit the 21st century. I'm not talking about taking away liberties but updating it to fit the times.

    I've noticed the way most pro-gun people are is that they refuse to allow change to occur when it comes to their precious guns when it's in dire need of it big time. They use the same lame excuse everytime with no proof I might add to say the government will take us over in about 50 or 100 years from now if we allow gun control laws into effect. That is complete BS. Gun control laws are implimented and should be implimented if situations like school shootings and accidental shootings with guns occur, because it's obvious that even if people have the right to bear arms they aren't that bright sometimes when it comes to storing the gun or knowing how to use it.

    A right is only as good as being responsible with that right. That means that people need to learn how to use a gun properly and safely. All I'm asking for is trigger locks and a training class in how to use a firearm properly. What is so hard for you Moriartre and others to understand.
  3. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Yesh, and now in Britain, France, Australia...Canada kinda...


    Make it fit...how? The only way I would make it "fit", is to make it clearer that the citizens of the U.S. have a right to bear arms, to own and use in self-defense. I think this says it well enough, but how can you change it to "fit the times". With what you are suggesting, you want people to go through government regulated training to enact a right. A right is something you do not need training for, but something you are born with the ability to enact, to use. It does not matter what that right is. Our rights were made broad so as to incorporate all, and from what I'm getting from you, you would micro-manage it, and that cannot be done effectively.


    I've explained the rule of precedent, but like many things, it is lost on you. I can give you statistics to support any of my arguements, so they cannot be "lame" as you would put it and I've explained the dangers of doing what you are proposing. Everything you propose, however, has no proof of having the effectiveness you want it to have, so I can say that your arguements are BS as well. But then again, I have history to suuport my arguements, while you do not.


    Uh-huh, some as in a very small percentage. The majority are law-abiding and safe, but you would like everyone to believe that those few must cause changes to hurt the rest of those who are safe. Then you will say I am justifying deaths, but no I am not. There are abusers of rights yes, but there are those, the majority, that do so responsibly. To enact the changes you propose hurt the majority, the law-abiding, it doesnext to nothing to prevent the deaths you and I wish never were. You crave safety at the cost of our liberty. That controls, it does not enable, it constricts and sets a false sense of security when in effect it hinders.


    Uh-huh, again you want people to train to before they can use their rights...that does not make sense. I've admitted that some safety concerns are needed, BUT sometimes they go too far and hurt rather than help, and what you want is destructive to the soul.

    And Kaine, I will tell you I have nothing but utter contempt for you. I've talked to people like and do not care for it, your choice of words are highly derogatory and proves to me you are not worth debating with. I concern myself with the 2nd amendment, I concern myself with firearms, I concern myself with something important. If you do not believe so I suggest you leave instead of making baseless assumptions on my character, or you could speak civily and try a nicer approach.

    Ciou-See the Sif
  4. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    "I've explained the rule of precedent, but like many things, it is lost on you. I can give you statistics to support any of my arguements, so they cannot be "lame" as you would put it and I've explained the dangers of doing what you are proposing. Everything you propose, however, has no proof of having the effectiveness you want it to have, so I can say that your arguements are BS as well. But then again, I have history to suuport my arguements, while you do not."

    Back it up then. All you have shown throughout this whole debate is the same LAME excuse. "are rights are being taken away, oh my God." Then you go into the deal about other countries which has NO BARRING on America.

    Like I stated in my earlier post. The Constitution and ammendments while some are vague like the 2nd ammendment they can BE CHANGED AND THEY CAN BE FIXED. That is the GLORY OF THE CONSTITUTION. Things can be fixed and changed as time goes on. If it doesn't work like Prohibition then we can cancel it out with another ammendment. It took basically 90 years for African Americans to gain equal citizenship under the constitution with the 13, 14, and 15 ammendment. That means for 90 years they were not legally allowed to own or have a firearm. As time goes on, things change wheather you want it to or not.

    And another thing HAVING A RIGHT means that you must be RESPONSIBLE when it comes to that RIGHT. You CANNOT ABUSE IT!!!!

    While it's true your born with certain rights and one of them is the right to self defense. There are other alternatives to self defense then a damn gun. Chew on that one for a little while. Before guns were invented what the hell did people use? Swords, Knifes, animal bones etc. The point is that guns are 100000 times worse, deadly, and far more accurate then any sword, knife etc. If someone is going to have that much power as a RIGHT they must be RESPONSIBLE with that RIGHT. Now as cases have shown people can be VERY STUPID WHEN IT COMES TO GUNS. While not everyone is stupid with guns, there still must be a safeguard to make sure those who own a gun KNOW HOW TO USE IT. That is why it should be a requirement. Unfortunately you cannot trust certain people, but if we as a majority can just say "What will it hurt to take that class in gun safety" then we are just waiting for another shooting massacre etc.


  5. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Moriarte, I simply feel very passionate about this subject. I got a little riled up. I don't care what your few hundred year old 2nd ammendment says, its rediculous to think that owning a gun is a "right" your born with. Is it a bad thing that you can't just stroll into a convenient store in Britain and buy a gun?? You seem to think so. Excuse me, but i think thats madness.
    If your so worried about your personal protection, buy some pepper spray. Its one of the most effective forms of self-defense. Or would you rather your mugger lies in a pool of his own blood?
    Look, if ya feel the need to blast away a few people, buy a video game and one of those video game guns. Their loads of fun! I don't know why you have such "utter contempt" for me. What was it i said that was so offensive to you? I'm trying to debate like everyone else and your just trying to brush me off without answering my argument.
  6. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    KaineDamo:
    I might not need it now, but if I do need it, I want to be able to have it.

    Your only option in this case is to repeal the Second Amendment. the process for changing the Consitution is outlined in Article V.

    By the way, if the choice is between me or a member of my family lying in a pool of blood or a mugger lying in a pool of blood, I'd rather the mugger do it.

    By the way, pepper sprays and Mace fail a fair amount of the time, and when they fail, they only enrage the assailant. The safest way to resist is with a gun. This was from a criminologist named Gary Kleck, who started out advocating gun control, and who changed his mind as a result of his studies.

    I've said before, I do not WANT to blow anyone away. I hope I am never in a situation where I have to blow someone away. But at the same time, if I have no other choice, I'll defend myself and use lethal force to do so.

    Unless I am mistaken, your statements lead me to believe that you are of the opinion that the woman who lies dead in an alley after being raped and strangled with her own pantyhose is somehow morally superior to the one who is alive and explaining to the cops how her would-be killer/rapist/assailant got a pair of serious gunshot wounds to chest.

    You will forgive me if I say that I find such logic incomprehensible and deeply flawed.
  7. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    If she survived the encounter, at least she wouldn't have the death of somebody on her concience. If a mugger comes at you, how do you know if they're after your lunch money or after your life? Pepper spray is the best answer. It is THE MOST effective form of self defense besides being Bruce Lee. Guns can jam you know. C'mon, admit it, you wish you were in the wicked Wild West don't you?
  8. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    "By the way, pepper sprays and Mace fail a fair amount of the time, and when they fail, they only enrage the assailant. The safest way to resist is with a gun. This was from a criminologist named Gary Kleck, who started out advocating gun control, and who changed his mind as a result of his studies."

    Can you post those studies? Another thing also. Guns aren't 100% perfect either. Especially when you don't know how to use the gun properly. That is why I want mandatory training classes. Plus you have other weapons at your disposal these days also.

    Taser, will take out a 350 lbs man in seconds

    Knife, old faithful

    Baseball Bat, old faithful

    Yard tools, old faithful.

    Plus you always have your hands and legs, and you can always run.



  9. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    All you care to say is that my sound arguement is lame *flips through rule-book*, nope not in there. You just don't want me to use sound evidence to support my arguement because you cannot defend against it.


    Yes, and I asked you HOW you would fix it, HOW would you re-word it to "fit the times"?

    "And another thing HAVING A RIGHT means that you must be RESPONSIBLE when it comes to that RIGHT. You CANNOT ABUSE IT!!!!"

    Well duh, we are taught about our rights. Sure, we don't take a formal class that explains the origins and meanings of our rights, but they were designed as such that we wouldn't have too, however they can be controversial, and not everyone is going to agree on their exact meaning, but the majority does however.

    What would you have us do then...take a class on how to be responsible with our rights? Many many many people would react harshly to that, because our rights are for US, OURSELVES to decide just like how we raise our children, our religion, our freedom of speech are for US to decide to interpret and act upon, which again causes controversy because people have different views on what the rights exactly mean. So I cannot see a class being made because it would be heavily biased and even then...we are taught indirectly of our rights and what they mean, and not to mention it is for our parents to teach us, not for some outside interferrance i.e. government.

    "While it's true your born with certain rights and one of them is the right to self defense. There are other alternatives to self defense then a damn gun."

    Yes, but none more effective in endangering and defending. I would rather have a gun, than not at all against an armed assailant, for you never ever know and I am not going to take that kind of chance on my life.


    So what, peoples' beliefs have killed more people then guns ever will. Words express belief, belief begets action, whether it be violence or no. And since words and beliefs have been around longer then guns, guns would never catch up...but you cannot blame the gun, but the person who acted on their beliefs expressed by their words. We have the first amendment right to speak our minds, unless it infringes on anothers, but people argueably handle their first amendment rights very very irresponsibly...should we institute rules for that too so that we can be "responsible" with our beliefs and actions? No, because that would be infringing on our liberties at the expense of safety and that is wrong because it does down the wrong road.

    Yes, people can be stupid with guns, but the majority are not stupid with them and are highly responsible. Why should the majority suffer at the expense of the minority? Why should we have our liberties snipped away by those who act irresponsibly? Should we not go after those irresponsible instead of hurting those who did no wrong? You are asking that everyone pay for the crimes of the few, and that is unjust. What you propose does not solve any problems, but creates more. It is feel good legislation that serves to give you peace of mind while sacrificing your liberty. It does not matter how small it is, the fact is you wish to destroy some of it for some modicum of control. It gives the government more control, not you. WE do not need legislation to enact our rights, your safegaurd only hurts that right.

    It is common sense to go through safety training, but not all people do it. You don't have to because again you do not need "requirements" to enact your rights. Your safety class, to reach the numbers you want, would have to be controlled by the government. Then they can institute more "safety" measures down the road so that you have to be a certain age, have certain training, only have a certain amount of firearms, a license maybe...all in the name of "safety" that you so desire at the expense of liberty. Instead of going after the real problem, you try and take away a liberty in the hopes that it will stop irresponsible action when it will not, because you want a quick fix. If they cannot enact their right, w
  10. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    "I got a little riled up. I don't care what your few hundred year old 2nd ammendment says, its rediculous to think that owning a gun is a "right" your born with."

    Not only is it used to protect yoursself from those that would endanger your life, but also in the use against a hostile government, it is far from rediculous.

    "Is it a bad thing that you can't just stroll into a convenient store in Britain and buy a gun?? You seem to think so. Excuse me, but i think thats madness."

    People do not but firearms in a conveniance store, but in buisness with a special permit to purchase and sell those firearms, and they are very strict.

    "If your so worried about your personal protection, buy some pepper spray. Its one of the most effective forms of self-defense. Or would you rather your mugger lies in a pool of his own blood?"

    I would not take a life unless mine own was threatened to the point that I had to kill the assailant who would try to kill me. Said assailant would be infringing on my right to life, so I have every right to defend my life even if that means the assailants death. He is the aggressor, not me, so again I have every right to do so. And don't start saying that everyone could kill anyone for any reason...no, I am only talking in basics, and it depends on the circumstances.

    "Look, if ya feel the need to blast away a few people, buy a video game and one of those video game guns."

    No, I don't feel the need to blast people away.

    I already stated why I have contempt for you, because it seems you do not even try, but instead use rhetoric, stereotype, and pointless offensives and none of them support what you are saying.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  11. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    "you cannot blame the gun, but the person who acted on their beliefs expressed by their words."

    You just said it. People pull the trigger, the gun doesn't do it. That is why there should be safeguards so that the WRONG person that being a kid can't fire that weapon.

    "What would you have us do then...take a class on how to be responsible with our rights? Many many many people would react harshly to that, because our rights are for US, OURSELVES to decide just like how we raise our children, our religion, our freedom of speech are for US to decide to interpret and act upon, which again causes controversy because people have different views on what the rights exactly mean"

    Well what I've seen in my life is that some people need to take a class to know how to use those rights THEY TAKE FOR GRANTED!!! The first ammendment rights is one of the most controversial rights around. People need to know what is free speech and what isn't. What situations warrent free speech and what doesn't.

    Hell some people don't even know what the Constitution is or what any of the ammendments are to it. That is a sad state of affairs, yet it will be these same idiots who will cry foul when they think their rights have been violated when they don't have the first clue to what their rights are in the first place.

    So actually I think a class should be taught.

    "Yes, people can be stupid with guns, but the majority are not stupid with them and are highly responsible. Why should the majority suffer at the expense of the minority? "

    I don't call educating anyone suffering or losing their liberties for making them take a mandatory training class or having a trigger lock. I'm just asking for people to be more responsible with a device that kills. A good citizen is a responsible citizen and any good citizen would always want to make things better and not just sit there like a bump on a log while people die when they didn't have to because a simple DEVICE wasn't on the firearm. You cannot count on people doing these things on their own unfortunately. The only way you can do it is by lighting a match in their pocket book and say take the class or pay a fine. That is why it should be a law.
  12. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    KaineDamo:

    And if she doesn't survive the encounter?

    Sorry, but you're thinking on this is warped. I want to survive. I've got a family, and a nephew on the way (due August 3) that I want to see and spoil.

    Your attitude is cold comfort. I suppose crime victims in DC and Chicago are just collateral damage.
  13. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    The book is Targeting Guns, published in 1997. Amazon.com will have it available.
  14. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    All these scenarios about women lying in blood just brings back the matter of the high crime rate.

    I can understand that Moriarte feels he needs to protect himself considering he lives in a country that has an exceptionally high crime rate.
    In Europe people can't own guns unless in exceptional circumstances (people that have good reason to be afraid of their lives CAN actually get a gun) or unless living in Switzerland. How come British, French or German citizens don't complain that one of their rights has been taken away? How come they don't feel the need to own a gun to protect themselves? Maybe because they don't feel threatened. I certainly don't feel I'm in imminent danger considering I live in a country where it's statistically more likely to be kicked to death by a donkey than to be the victim of violent crime
  15. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    People in Europe couldn't care less that they don't have the oh so glorious liberty of being able to buy guns. Yet you folk in America cry foil play when people try to make guns a little safer. Why do you suppose that is? People in the general public having the right to bear arms is freedom gone mad. Why can't you see that? I mean, anyone planning a bank robbery could get a hold of their weaponry SO easily.
    Moriarte, you don't have the first idea of what its like for your rights to be taken away. Quite frankly, i'm a little tired of you talking about it like your Marin Luther King. I can't go to certain places because i'm catholic. If certain people found out i was dating a protestant girl, i would be shot. Hows that for liberties? People taking away your right to own a gun doesn't even compare to that. The terrorists here get their guns from the US because its too hard to get them here.
    People in most other countries survive just fine without having a six shooter tucked away in their belt. I suggest you try and see the bigger picture, and make a very little sacrifice which would save alot of lives.
  16. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    KaineDamo:

    So you would give us an idea of how it feels to have our rights taken away, if it were in your power?

    By the way, the terrorists have an easier time getting much more deadly weapons from various arms bazaars in the third world than here in the U.S. In the U.S., it costs $400 or more to get a semi-auto only version of an AK. You get the real thing (a full-auto AK-47) in Yemen for $200, or one can be made for you in Darra, Pakistan for $150. There's also the stuff that leaks out of Russia big-time, and our troops have found ChiCom ammo in the al-Qaida caves that we've cleared to date. Care to bet Chinese Type 56 assault rifles (their AK-47 clone) are there, too?

    Other bazaars in the third world will give you RPGs, black-market Semtex, and all that stuff as well.

    I don't know where you are, so I cannot say for certain what the situation is, but making me take the fall for your terrorist creeps is unacceptable to me. Why do I have to make the sacrifice for the actions of others?

    Tukafo:

    What seems to be argued in the guns/crime mix is like the chicken and the egg scneario.

    Did the gun gain popularity because smaller people needed an equalizer for situations where they ran across a bigger person or gang of criminals?

    Also, in America, there's been a lot more space than in places like Europe, meaning a longer reponse time for cops. Cops ususally are not around in time to stop a crime, often they are just picking up the pieces from a bad situation.

    We also have had strict rules governing criminal procedure, and we've often had suspects walk because those rules were broken, or because the prosecution didn't have enough evidence. But it protects everyone as a whole. We have rare instances where innocent people have been put in prison, but far more often than not, the folks in jail belong there, we don't have to worry about our phone being tapped if we've obeyed the law, and we live and let live for the most part.

    And most places in this country are safe. The guns are not the problem.
  17. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    "You just said it. People pull the trigger, the gun doesn't do it. That is why there should be safeguards so that the WRONG person that being a kid can't fire that weapon."

    SO WHAT!!! That kid will only get some other weapon, it does NOT, does NOT solve the problem you pretend to be championing. You are only suggesting something that feels good at the cost of my liberty to make my own decisions. If you re-call the inherant problem with making trigger locks mandatory and not only does it infringe of my liberty because it controls how I enact my right, but you again forget that.


    And who should make the rules for that class huh? Who should be appointed to know the entire truth of our rights? YOU?! No, we all interpret our rights as we will, because we have that right to chose for ourselves. To make a mandatory class to learn about your rights is folly for it can and will be rife with bias. So I suggest that if you view your rights a certain way, not to infringe on my own.

    They can be taught by their parents as they will, and through their own college courses chosen by themselves, that is the best way possible with the least amount of infringement. I'll be damned if someone is going to tell ME what MY rights mean to ME. For I interpret them as I do, and no one has the right to tell me otherwise.


    Yes, obviously you do not care to understand my arguements against it, because you are a broken record who causes me to spout the same arguement only for you to ignore it once more.


    A "simple" device is not going to solve your problems, for it is the PERSON, not the tool, and you would want more control on our behavior forceably than tackling the major problem which would take longer than people care for.

    "You cannot count on people doing these things on their own unfortunately. The only way you can do it is by lighting a match in their pocket book and say take the class or pay a fine. That is why it should be a law."

    You would force people to take a class to enact their rights? You would want control over us for the sake of safety? You would have the majority of responsible gun-owners take the fall for those few who abuse their rights? You do not see how your control methods will only hurt us in the long run as I have explained before, because like you said, you'll be dead before the s*** hits the fan. The fact that you don't care will this can and has lead to is horrid to say the least.

    Kaine:
    "People in Europe couldn't care less that they don't have the oh so glorious liberty of being able to buy guns."

    Really...well when WWII came around they begged Americans for firearms, and gun-owning citizens of this land gave guns to support your war against Germany, but then they discarded them. Don't bother to call when you need us again.

    "Yet you folk in America cry foil play when people try to make guns a little safer. Why do you suppose that is? People in the general public having the right to bear arms is freedom gone mad. "

    So the gun-owner that defends his life with a gun is mad, a police officer with a gun is mad? The mother, father, farmer, cashier etc. that defends their life with a firearm is folly? The Founding Fathers are mad that they recgonized those that have weapons have power? Spare me.


    "Why can't you see that? I mean, anyone planning a bank robbery could get a hold of their weaponry SO easily."

    Criminally easy, yes, but like I said before but you don't remember, we ALL have our rights and we have to deal with the abusers in order to keep them. Some here believe that with control equates safety, but they cost us our liberty. The more government has control over our rights, they more they have control over US. Our rights are in the Constitution to protect us from the actions of the government. It is a safegaurd that PEOPLE here take for granted, and some here believe that our government could never become corrupt, because some will be dead before that happens, but to think that way is disgusting.


    "Moriarte, you don't have the first idea of what i
  18. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    Moriarte unless I'm mistaken. Most situations that happens when it comes to kids with guns came from the parents registered firearm. From accidental shootings to school shootings. The weapon came from home. Now I would rather have that kid try to get that parents gun only to find out that the trigger lock was on it and therefore not be able to use it, then like your suggesting that kid trying to find an illegal firearm somewhere with no trigger lock on it.

    If you make law that the trigger lock has to be on the gun and it must be in a safe location then accidental shootings and school shootings will DROP based on the situations which have already happened. It's a lot harder for a 13 or 14 year old kid to find a weapon without a trigger lock on it if it is law that it must be there. You cannot deny that.

    Your argument is becoming worse by the minute. What I'm asking for is not a big deal. It's a safetly procaution. Just like a background check. So your for background checks but not trigger locks? Both serve the same function. Because based on your reasoning everyone and there dog needs a gun because it's there right. So your saying people with a criminal record, or someone who has mental illness should have one also? So are we taking there liberties and rights away? Who are we to tell them they can't have one?

    Plus no I would not want to teach you about your rights. By the way your dead wrong on interpreting our rights anyway we want. If we did that then we would have not order at all, because one idiot out there will say well I don't want to follow that law, and then others will do the same and we have a domino effect of eventual anarchy. If that was the way it was then we wouldn't be where we were today. Our rights are broad but they do spell out what you will and will not do. You can interpret philosophy anyway you want but you cannot interpret rights anyway you want.

    The sooner trigger locks become law the sooner you will learn it was for the best.
  19. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    "Moriarte unless I'm mistaken. Most situations that happens when it comes to kids with guns came from the parents registered firearm. From accidental shootings to school shootings. The weapon came from home."

    PPOR


    "Now I would rather have that kid try to get that parents gun only to find out that the trigger lock was on it and therefore not be able to use it, then like your suggesting that kid trying to find an illegal firearm somewhere with no trigger lock on it."

    Uh huh, again trading liberty for safety. IT does not help at all.

    "If you make law that the trigger lock has to be on the gun and it must be in a safe location then accidental shootings and school shootings will DROP based on the situations which have already happened."

    PPOR, and no I do not think it will. Kids need to be taught RESPECT about guns, kids need to be taught SAFETY. Putting trigger locks on weapons are NOT going to curb that anger, again your quick fix does not work.

    "It's a lot harder for a 13 or 14 year old kid to find a weapon without a trigger lock on it if it is law that it must be there. You cannot deny that."

    And you cannot deny they ineherant danger of instituting behavior control...no wait you are in denial.

    "Your argument is becoming worse by the minute. What I'm asking for is not a big deal."

    PPOR that it is, for you are only saying that because I do not proscribe myself to your weakness.


    "It's a safetly procaution. Just like a background check. So your for background checks but not trigger locks?"

    Noo, back ground checks are needed to check for a criminal record so those criminals cannot buy a firearm legally. Now trigger locks, well that is forcing me to adhere to a certain behavior. I have a RIGHT to own a firearm, I have a RIGHT to property, I have a RIGHT to do as I will concerning my actions and my RIGHTS. Thusly, I decide how I lock up MY firearms on MY property, because it is my RIGHT to do so. Again, I refer you to the NRA's position on trigger locks, but you have yet to prove to me you even read it or understand it.


    "Because based on your reasoning everyone and there dog needs a gun because it's there right."

    No, everyone has a right to own a firearm. If they decide not to own one, fine, but what you propose infringes on my mine ever so slightly. It does not matter how small it is, it is the slippery slope that you care not to witness.

    "So your saying people with a criminal record, or someone who has mental illness should have one also? So are we taking there liberties and rights away? Who are we to tell them they can't have one?"

    No, do not assume. Background checks are needed unfortunately. Criminals lose some of their rights, and mental patients well, it depends on how far their mind is retarded.

    "Plus no I would not want to teach you about your rights. By the way your dead wrong on interpreting our rights anyway we want."

    Ohhh, no, PPOR that I am wrong...come on...do it, you cannot.

    "If we did that then we would have not order at all, because one idiot out there will say well I don't want to follow that law, and then others will do the same and we have a domino effect of eventual anarchy."

    Uhh, there is a hot debate over the interpretation of the 2nd amendment, and there is still a debate over the 1st amendment...are you still going to say we do not have the power of interpretation? No, you are wrong.

    People can decide how they interpret their rights, but then he will have to deal with the Tyranny of the Majority, ever hear of that? It is in ALL our best interests to follow the majority, though for whether you believe it or not and to what extent is up to you. And the majority of us DO interpret our rights in the same way, so there is not a problem there. I understand what you are saying, but understand that we DO have the power to interpret our rights as we will, but the majority of us are taught them in basically the same way. And then there are those who promote change, and those who promote constancy.

    And no, the sooner my ri
  20. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    PPOR What the hell does that mean?

    "PPOR, and no I do not think it will. Kids need to be taught RESPECT about guns, kids need to be taught SAFETY. Putting trigger locks on weapons are NOT going to curb that anger, again your quick fix does not work."

    Never have I called it a quick fix, but it will do better then just HOPE that any good citizen will teach there kid, respect and safety for guns. It will take time to impliment the trigger locks and such and at least 2 to 3 years to see if they are working. So it's not a quick fix, but it's better than hoping for the best, rather make it law where if some kid finds his parents gun and kills two or three of his friends or classmates then not only does the kid face criminal charges but so does the parents for one not having the gun in a secured place, and two not having the trigger lock.

    If you knew anything about kids then you would know they love to snoop, and find the gun they will, and keeping in a dresser under some cloths or under the matress will not suffice. You know what if you had the trigger lock you could keep it under your pillow and the kid can play with it all he/she wants but it's not going to go off.

    "PPOR that it is, for you are only saying that because I do not proscribe myself to your weakness."

    What weakness. I'm not a weak minded hope for the best What if circumstance personality like you are just because you think your rights are being violated. Man you don't even what it's like to have your rights violated. I find my rights being violated by idiots out there who buy a gun and don't know how to use it. I find my 10 year old sisters rights to life being violated because some kid could easily get his parents gun and come to my sisters school and open fire on her class. So I'm not weak, but I see the ******** problem and it is that people like you will bitch and complain about your rights being violated all the while people are putting there kids and loved ones in coffins because maybe just maybe if there was another safeguard there with that gun then that child could be walking around playing today, but instead is six feet under, because people like you want to keep things the way they are and turn a cold shoulder away from a SERIOUS ******** problem which is happening with kids today. Wake up and smell the ********** coffee. I will take a childs life over your silly little right any damn day of the week and twice on Sunday. Life is more important than you and others like you silly little passion for a gun which is not 100% effective in home or self defense either.


    "Thusly, I decide how I lock up MY firearms on MY property, because it is my RIGHT to do so."

    Where the hell is that written as a right in our constitution how you will lock your firearms away? You have an obligation to USE COMMON SENSE. I'm not attacking you but other morons out there who don't lock it up properly, and wind up getting people killed as a result of lack of COMMON SENSE.

    "I refer you to the NRA's position on trigger locks, but you have yet to prove to me you even read it or understand it"

    I do understand it and I think it's BS and it is BS. They find whatever they can to complain about and do it in the ever so way of being idiotic. I was a member of the NRA until I dropped my membership on this matter alone. They were idiots and there lame excuses will not work on me when it comes to protecting the life of a child over a stupid fixation on having a gun. Nobody is saying you can't own and gun, nobody saying you can't do what you want with that gun, but YOU WILL NOT KEEP THE GUN IN AREA WITH KIDS, AND YOU WILL KEEP A TRIGGER LOCK ON IT, OR PAY THE PIPER.


    "Background checks are needed unfortunately."

    That really sums you up. Your a NRA robot. Clear as day. Only a NRA extremist would say something this dumb. Somebody I believe once called you this and you got all pissed off about it. Well guess what your being called it again, because that is exactly who you are. I know people like you and I have friends like you. They are good people but when
  21. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    PPOR What the hell does that mean?

    "PPOR, and no I do not think it will. Kids need to be taught RESPECT about guns, kids need to be taught SAFETY. Putting trigger locks on weapons are NOT going to curb that anger, again your quick fix does not work."

    Never have I called it a quick fix, but it will do better then just HOPE that any good citizen will teach there kid, respect and safety for guns. It will take time to impliment the trigger locks and such and at least 2 to 3 years to see if they are working. So it's not a quick fix, but it's better than hoping for the best, rather make it law where if some kid finds his parents gun and kills two or three of his friends or classmates then not only does the kid face criminal charges but so does the parents for one not having the gun in a secured place, and two not having the trigger lock.

    If you knew anything about kids then you would know they love to snoop, and find the gun they will, and keeping in a dresser under some cloths or under the matress will not suffice. You know what if you had the trigger lock you could keep it under your pillow and the kid can play with it all he/she wants but it's not going to go off.

    "PPOR that it is, for you are only saying that because I do not proscribe myself to your weakness."

    What weakness. I'm not a weak minded hope for the best What if circumstance personality like you are just because you think your rights are being violated. Man you don't even what it's like to have your rights violated. I find my rights being violated by idiots out there who buy a gun and don't know how to use it. I find my 10 year old sisters rights to life being violated because some kid could easily get his parents gun and come to my sisters school and open fire on her class. So I'm not weak, but I see the ******** problem and it is that people like you will bitch and complain about your rights being violated all the while people are putting there kids and loved ones in coffins because maybe just maybe if there was another safeguard there with that gun then that child could be walking around playing today, but instead is six feet under, because people like you want to keep things the way they are and turn a cold shoulder away from a SERIOUS ******** problem which is happening with kids today. Wake up and smell the ********** coffee. I will take a childs life over your silly little right any damn day of the week and twice on Sunday. Life is more important than you and others like you silly little passion for a gun which is not 100% effective in home or self defense either.


    "Thusly, I decide how I lock up MY firearms on MY property, because it is my RIGHT to do so."

    Where the hell is that written as a right in our constitution how you will lock your firearms away? You have an obligation to USE COMMON SENSE. I'm not attacking you but other morons out there who don't lock it up properly, and wind up getting people killed as a result of lack of COMMON SENSE.

    "I refer you to the NRA's position on trigger locks, but you have yet to prove to me you even read it or understand it"

    I do understand it and I think it's BS and it is BS. They find whatever they can to complain about and do it in the ever so way of being idiotic. I was a member of the NRA until I dropped my membership on this matter alone. They were idiots and there lame excuses will not work on me when it comes to protecting the life of a child over a stupid fixation on having a gun. Nobody is saying you can't own and gun, nobody saying you can't do what you want with that gun, but YOU WILL NOT KEEP THE GUN IN AREA WITH KIDS, AND YOU WILL KEEP A TRIGGER LOCK ON IT, OR PAY THE PIPER.


    "Background checks are needed unfortunately."

    That really sums you up. Your a NRA robot. Clear as day. Only a NRA extremist would say something this dumb. Somebody I believe once called you this and you got all pissed off about it. Well guess what your being called it again, because that is exactly who you are. I know people like you and I have friends like you. They are good people but when
  22. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    PPOR What the hell does that mean?

    "PPOR, and no I do not think it will. Kids need to be taught RESPECT about guns, kids need to be taught SAFETY. Putting trigger locks on weapons are NOT going to curb that anger, again your quick fix does not work."

    Never have I called it a quick fix, but it will do better then just HOPE that any good citizen will teach there kid, respect and safety for guns. It will take time to impliment the trigger locks and such and at least 2 to 3 years to see if they are working. So it's not a quick fix, but it's better than hoping for the best, rather make it law where if some kid finds his parents gun and kills two or three of his friends or classmates then not only does the kid face criminal charges but so does the parents for one not having the gun in a secured place, and two not having the trigger lock.

    If you knew anything about kids then you would know they love to snoop, and find the gun they will, and keeping in a dresser under some cloths or under the matress will not suffice. You know what if you had the trigger lock you could keep it under your pillow and the kid can play with it all he/she wants but it's not going to go off.

    "PPOR that it is, for you are only saying that because I do not proscribe myself to your weakness."

    What weakness. I'm not a weak minded hope for the best What if circumstance personality like you are just because you think your rights are being violated. Man you don't even what it's like to have your rights violated. I find my rights being violated by idiots out there who buy a gun and don't know how to use it. I find my 10 year old sisters rights to life being violated because some kid could easily get his parents gun and come to my sisters school and open fire on her class. So I'm not weak, but I see the ******** problem and it is that people like you will bitch and complain about your rights being violated all the while people are putting there kids and loved ones in coffins because maybe just maybe if there was another safeguard there with that gun then that child could be walking around playing today, but instead is six feet under, because people like you want to keep things the way they are and turn a cold shoulder away from a SERIOUS ******** problem which is happening with kids today. Wake up and smell the ********** coffee. I will take a childs life over your silly little right any damn day of the week and twice on Sunday. Life is more important than you and others like you silly little passion for a gun which is not 100% effective in home or self defense either.


    "Thusly, I decide how I lock up MY firearms on MY property, because it is my RIGHT to do so."

    Where the hell is that written as a right in our constitution how you will lock your firearms away? You have an obligation to USE COMMON SENSE. I'm not attacking you but other morons out there who don't lock it up properly, and wind up getting people killed as a result of lack of COMMON SENSE.

    "I refer you to the NRA's position on trigger locks, but you have yet to prove to me you even read it or understand it"

    I do understand it and I think it's BS and it is BS. They find whatever they can to complain about and do it in the ever so way of being idiotic. I was a member of the NRA until I dropped my membership on this matter alone. They were idiots and there lame excuses will not work on me when it comes to protecting the life of a child over a stupid fixation on having a gun. Nobody is saying you can't own and gun, nobody saying you can't do what you want with that gun, but YOU WILL NOT KEEP THE GUN IN AREA WITH KIDS, AND YOU WILL KEEP A TRIGGER LOCK ON IT, OR PAY THE PIPER.


    "Background checks are needed unfortunately."

    That really sums you up. Your a NRA robot. Clear as day. Only a NRA extremist would say something this dumb. Somebody I believe once called you this and you got all pissed off about it. Well guess what your being called it again, because that is exactly who you are. I know people like you and I have friends like you. They are good people but when
  23. MASTER_JEDI_BEEFCAKE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 2
    PPOR What the hell does that mean?

    "PPOR, and no I do not think it will. Kids need to be taught RESPECT about guns, kids need to be taught SAFETY. Putting trigger locks on weapons are NOT going to curb that anger, again your quick fix does not work."

    Never have I called it a quick fix, but it will do better then just HOPE that any good citizen will teach there kid, respect and safety for guns. It will take time to impliment the trigger locks and such and at least 2 to 3 years to see if they are working. So it's not a quick fix, but it's better than hoping for the best, rather make it law where if some kid finds his parents gun and kills two or three of his friends or classmates then not only does the kid face criminal charges but so does the parents for one not having the gun in a secured place, and two not having the trigger lock.

    If you knew anything about kids then you would know they love to snoop, and find the gun they will, and keeping in a dresser under some cloths or under the matress will not suffice. You know what if you had the trigger lock you could keep it under your pillow and the kid can play with it all he/she wants but it's not going to go off.

    "PPOR that it is, for you are only saying that because I do not proscribe myself to your weakness."

    What weakness. I'm not a weak minded hope for the best What if circumstance personality like you are just because you think your rights are being violated. Man you don't even what it's like to have your rights violated. I find my rights being violated by idiots out there who buy a gun and don't know how to use it. I find my 10 year old sisters rights to life being violated because some kid could easily get his parents gun and come to my sisters school and open fire on her class. So I'm not weak, but I see the ******** problem and it is that people like you will bitch and complain about your rights being violated all the while people are putting there kids and loved ones in coffins because maybe just maybe if there was another safeguard there with that gun then that child could be walking around playing today, but instead is six feet under, because people like you want to keep things the way they are and turn a cold shoulder away from a SERIOUS ******** problem which is happening with kids today. Wake up and smell the ********** coffee. I will take a childs life over your silly little right any damn day of the week and twice on Sunday. Life is more important than you and others like you silly little passion for a gun which is not 100% effective in home or self defense either.


    "Thusly, I decide how I lock up MY firearms on MY property, because it is my RIGHT to do so."

    Where the hell is that written as a right in our constitution how you will lock your firearms away? You have an obligation to USE COMMON SENSE. I'm not attacking you but other morons out there who don't lock it up properly, and wind up getting people killed as a result of lack of COMMON SENSE.

    "I refer you to the NRA's position on trigger locks, but you have yet to prove to me you even read it or understand it"

    I do understand it and I think it's BS and it is BS. They find whatever they can to complain about and do it in the ever so way of being idiotic. I was a member of the NRA until I dropped my membership on this matter alone. They were idiots and there lame excuses will not work on me when it comes to protecting the life of a child over a stupid fixation on having a gun. Nobody is saying you can't own and gun, nobody saying you can't do what you want with that gun, but YOU WILL NOT KEEP THE GUN IN AREA WITH KIDS, AND YOU WILL KEEP A TRIGGER LOCK ON IT, OR PAY THE PIPER.


    "Background checks are needed unfortunately."

    That really sums you up. Your a NRA robot. Clear as day. Only a NRA extremist would say something this dumb. Somebody I believe once called you this and you got all pissed off about it. Well guess what your being called it again, because that is exactly who you are. I know people like you and I have friends like you. They are good people but when
  24. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Amen to all that, brother. The right to own guns is NOT more important than the lifes of people being sacrificed again and again because of your right.
  25. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Ya know, I wrote this really long post, but I have now come to the decision you are not worth my time.

    You would try and paint my beliefs as not of my own, you would try and make my beliefs unworthy of respect or understanding. You would try and convince others that I don't care for the lives of others, you would try and make people believe that what I believe in is worthless and stupid. You would try and say I am blind or un-responsive to your *gag* "superior" reasoning.

    This only proves to me you have nothing worthwhile to say or think. You insult, assume, accuse and attack my character and those like me all because you believe your opinions superior to our own. We have been arguing the same things back and forth as you regurgitate the same things over and over, and now, after what you have said of me and those like me, you are proven to be worthless to talk to.

    Just because I do not believe or agree with you, does not make my beliefs, opinions, or arguements stupid nor does it mean my beliefs are not my own for they are, it does not mean I am blind, it does not mean I do not care, but the fact you would try and make others believe such things of me is horrid, innane, and ultimately proves your inferiority in debating by attacking me and those like me.

    You are not worth my time, and the reasons should be obvious, but you always miss them.

    You are nothing but a sock.

    Ciou-See the Sig
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