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Lit One Canon - Merging Legends and the New Canon - TFA spoilers, very much so

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Maybe in canon Bothan is just a slang word for spies, or species known for spying, long since removed from the furry species that originated the name. This would be like how Sith is a word for people dedicated to the dark side, but long since removed from the red species that originated the name.

    Why the change anyway? Is LFL working on 'Rogue Two: Theft of the Death Star 2 plans'?

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  2. spicer

    spicer Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2012
    That's the million dollar question. Their excuse is creative freedom, but it's not like they have a limit for how many species they can come up with. Just make and name something new. Voila, creative freedom.
     
  3. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    I remember immediately after the Disney buyout, Disney "shattered" Shatterpoint so that Depa Billaba could be Kanan's master. Fans could no longer even pretend the novel was canon. I thought that Disney better have a good reason for this.

    Years later and with Rebels almost over, it's still not clear why they had to use Depa and not say, Eeth Koth. I think it's safe to say Disney changes things for the sake of changing, not for a story based reason. :(

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  4. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2015
    The Kanan comic does elude to many of the events about Depa within the Shatterpoint novel as still happening. It doesn't spell it out 100% for people but it makes it clear enough so that if you want to find out what happened to Depa in her past you can just read Shatterpoint.
     
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  5. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007

    So what happened to Depa's trial? You know, the one where she was supposed to be charge with crimes against civilization? The Jedi and Senate just shrug and let her go back to her command and ranking status? After the horrific slaughter on Haruun Kal?
     
  6. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2015
    Not all the events. But the parts of the book where she goes crazy and why she went crazy.
     
  7. spicer

    spicer Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2012
    Not really, no. The way Depa's back story was (briefly) presented in the Kanan comics makes it clear that it does not conform to the events depicted in Shatterpoint. The canon version is a bastardization of the events in Shatterpoint. It would have been better if they came up with either something completely different or completely acknowledge Shatterpoint. The only way I can see this justified is if sometime in the future, somehow, the canon version of Depa's military loss leads to some really good plot point in a different story. Otherwise, this leaves the story group or whoever came up with this as just pointing the middle finger at fans that like the novel.
     
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  8. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2015
    Well I guess then it just comes down to rather people are ok with taking bits and pieces of stories from legends or if they think that if they choose to bring something over from legends they should bring over the entire novel.
     
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  9. spicer

    spicer Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2012
    Exactly. Either be completely original or completely acknowledge the story you may intend to copy. I don't want an alternative version of Shatterpoint or any other novel for no good reason, while using the excuse of "creative freedom".
     
  10. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    That's your opinion. I personally like the little nods we get here and there. Disney Canon is a new universe but by including bits and pieces of the old canon they're showing that they do acknowledge it in some form and aren't trying to forget that it ever happened.
     
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  11. spicer

    spicer Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2012
    I like the little nods we're getting too, but as long as they don't twist the source material. Something that (obviously) doesn't recanonise the story fully (e.g. the crashed Republic ship on Hypori from the Clone Wars; a nod to the microseries in Catalyst), but doesn't butcher it either (e.g. Quinlan Vos in canon, or Depa Bilaba in canon).
     
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  12. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 9, 2005
    It was a mistake reintroducing Thrawn.

    You want to tell people you are ignoring EU by putting a legend icon on books because it's not considered canon to prevent people getting confused?

    Then why confuse people by having these Legend EU event/characters coming in? 'Cause I'm pretty confused right now about who exactly Thrawn is.....
     
  13. Grievousdude

    Grievousdude Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2013
    Can Darth Plagueis still fit into canon? Like has anything major been contradicted or does it still work fine without any retcons? I read a library copy years ago and I've just bought a used copy to read it again because I barely remember the story other than the beginning with Plagueis betraying Tenebrous and the end with Palpatine killing Plagueis.
     
  14. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Nothing thus far.

    And as to Legends and Canon crossover... the ship sailed when Disney made Clone Wars Canon and picked Jason Fry, James Luceno and Dave Filoni to continue Canon. It is so loaded with Legends reference it's impossible not to.

    There's always a bit of truth in Legends. Just so happens some parts are more true than not.


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  15. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    One Canon aside, I don't see how the novel Darth Plagueis can logically fit without severe canon arm-twisting. In the novel, Palpatine's own thinking indicates he doesn't even know who Mother Talzin is at the time of his adopting Maul. Not to mention the novel has Maul's mother as someone other than Talzin.

    In canon as seen in Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir (a Dark Horse comic that story group formally announced as canon on twitter), Maul is definitely Talzin's son. Even more problematic, both Talzin and Palpatine acknowledge a long relationship (partners, or romantic it wasn't clear, but obviously a close relationship) with each other leading up to Maul's adoption (actually abduction) by Palpatine. This doesn't fit with Palpatine's internal thought process in the Plagueis book that he doesn't know who Talzin is.
     
  16. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    I liked what they did with Vos (though I seem to be the only one who liked Dark Disciple) and Billaba. They didn't "butcher" anything. Vos's Legends story was way too contrived. His new depiction makes much more sense. As does Depa's.
     
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  17. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I merged it by taking it that Palpatine had already adopted Maul before he met Talzin, but started their connection nonetheless. Presumably she found out and severed their plans. He's already betrayed her, so to speak.


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  18. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 27, 2016
    I'm sorry but I hate the new Canon Quinlan Vos he became a generic funny character instead of being a dark character as he was before
     
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  19. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    He went pretty dark in Dark Disciple(!)


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  20. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    And honestly, I had way less of a problem with goofy Vos in "Hunt for Ziro" than I did that. It was pretty easy to interpret as a persona.
     
  21. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    You clearly haven't read Dark Disciple then. There's much more to Vos's character than his youthful ebullience. But I enjoy that aspect of him. I always found the Legends Vos to be ridiculous with his endless brooding and permanent scowl.

    Vos's story in canon actually has a chance of succeeding. In both universes Quinlan Vos joins Count Dooku to discover the identity of Darth Sidious.

    In Legends Vos gets effortlessly duped by Sidious and Tyranus. He's clearly no match for the Sith as Dooku proves when he curbstomps Vos on more than one occasion.

    Canon Vos gets very close to Sidious, so close that he's in the room when Sidious contacts Dooku via hologram. This Vos is much more powerful than his Legends counterpart. He takes on Dooku alone and beats him soundly. The only thing saves the Sith Lord's life is a promise to introduce him to Sidious.

    Everyone's free to prefer their own version, but I find the Canon version to be much more fulfilling. Vos goes much deeper into the Dark Side than in Legends and he almost succeeds. Plus there's something awesome about how he crushes Dooku after seeing Tyranus troll him endlessly in Legends.
     
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  22. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    The problem with canon Vos is that it's completely unbelievable that the Jedi would reinstate him, Master status and all, after all of his crimes. With Legends Vos, it was at least somewhat believable (along with the fact that Legends Vos publicly declared his intention to leave the Order following the Clone Wars to marry Khaleen).

    What was Anakin so afraid of from the Council that he would rather join Sidious than admit to Yoda he chopped off Mace's hand? In canon the Council now let Quinlan get away with worse things. And knowing Anakin, the first thing he would say in ROTS after being denied a Mastership is, "You hypocrites let mass murdering Vos be a Master but not me. Got it." And we all know he'd say that.

    Dark Disciple completely undermines ROTS. I read the book all the way to the end hoping it would get better, but it didn't.
     
  23. Outsourced

    Outsourced Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2017
    I don't remember Vos doing anything THAT bad in DD. Admiral Enigma is shown to be a facade to demoralize the Jedi and implicate Vos, while he's still in a cell. He killed some clones and his Jedi friend, but his friend was already about to die from the poison in him, so that's questionable. And, after it all, he was repentant. He knew he'd fallen, even if his reasons were pure, and he suffered because of it via the death of Ventress. And, even at the end, it describes a lengthy rehabilitation process and the fact that he still needs to be observed by the Jedi.

    I'd also like to point out that Vos falling was due to the mistake of the Jedi Council.
     
  24. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Killed some clones and his Jedi friend. That's definitely mass murder, especially since Vos did this to free Dooku, and for no other reason. Also, the only reason his Jedi friend was poisoned in the first place was as a defense mechanism when Vos attacked him!! The Jedi friend was definitely murdered by Vos.

    If you can just kill a bunch of people, be repentant, and still be a Jedi Master, then Anakin had nothing to fear and should have admitted the Tusken slaughter and act repentant. And it was the Jedi's mistake for not freeing Shmi from slavery right?

    Does this mean if Anakin came clean about the Tusken slaughter, he'd still have a shot at being a Jedi Master? (or even allowed to stay with the Jedi at all? Ahsoka was expelled for far less) Because that's what the new canon is saying.
     
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  25. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 9, 2005
    If Jedi are supposed to be guardians of peace and justice, then why should they back the Republic only?
    Shouldn't they at least hear the CIS side of the story? Sure, the CIS is headed by the Sith, but there were honest separatist worlds that thought the republic weren't for them and they should secede.
     
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