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Lit One Canon - Merging Legends and the New Canon - TFA spoilers, very much so

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Corran can lecture Luke about how he's enabling Ben, prompting Luke to read Ben's mind in his sleep and Corran's ensuing slaughter.
     
  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Ouch.

    I’d kinda like it for some of our household names to have survived the slaughter and surface with Rey. Otherwise we’re going to need a massive time jump to justify Rey assembling a Jedi Order to face Ren. Which she might, or might not, of course.

    I could see the Council doing a KotoR II and sitting things out, especially if they couldn’t agree on the best way forward.

    EDIT: Hang on. I’ve been looking at the point of divergence as in Legends, but presumably it’s not just in Legends.

    It’s also about Ben. If we assume Snoke, Ben and the First Order exists in Legends also, insofar as much as vice-versa, the key to a One Canon emergence isn’t just the destruction of the Empire of the Hand, Killik Colony and neutering of the Chiss - it’s also the destruction of the Jedi Order’s next generation by Ben Solo.

    If Ben doesn’t get pushed by Luke, who is to say that he slaughters to Order? If he doesn’t, would Snoke, the marvellous bastard who is barely phased by the loss of Starkiller Base, emerge from hiding without an apprentice of Ben’s stature against a Jedi Order of hundreds? Why do it at all? He may as well wait until everything is together - and with the staccato of events from LotF onwards, how can he act at all until matters settle down?

    What if Lumiya was referring to Snoke’s plan, not Krayt’s? Fundamentally, her actions with Caedus had the unintended - or perhaps intended - consequence of pushing back Krayt’s scheme by decades...(!) With Ben’s massacre, a Jedi generation is cut off from Abeloth... Caedus never falls... the Tribe never escape... Daala is still in hiding...

    What if Treen is working for Snoke... being from Kuat - a Centrist world.

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    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  3. Xander Vos

    Xander Vos Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Could set IX 10 years later and be believable, but they might not want to do such a big jump. It's not unprecedented though (obviously).
     
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  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I snuck in an edit, but agreed - a ten year time gap would give her time, though presumably she’s finding a lot of adults that Luke didn’t pick up... or couldn’t, being as he was in hiding. It’s connected to whenever Ben destroys the Order, no doubt.


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  5. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    I'm of the opinion that Kuat was still a Republic world prior to the Hosnian Cataclysm.
     
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  6. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    As am I.

    But we know that some Centrists in Snoke’s pocket stayed in the Senate, from Before the Awakening. Similarly we know Kuat spun off a subsidiary corporation to work on First Order Star Destroyers.

    I expect Rian introduced the Centrist concept to (eventually) explain why the New Republic collapses so swiftly - with Centrist and independent systems folding immediately after the Hosnian Cataclysm.


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  7. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Maybe with Jacen's changing of the current/time, he changed the fates of certain characters and the decisions others made:

    1. Thrawn and Gallius Rax: Until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume that a character that exists in canon also exists in Legends, and vice-versa, even if their fates aren't the same. In Legends, Thrawn lived until 9 ABY when he was betrayed and murdered by Rukh. His canon fate is currently unknown (maybe Rebels will reveal it). In my viewpoint, the Legends counterpart of Gallius Rax died sometime prior to his ability to initiate Operation Cinder, leaving Thrawn has the highest ranking Imperial to reestablish the Empire (we'll get to DE Sidious in a little bit). Obviously, his priorities would be different than Rax's and the goal of Operation: Cinder.

    Regarding Ysanne Isard, I operate under the assumption that Rax has her eliminated, therefore leaving Mas Amedda in "charge" of Coruscant. I doubt Isard would even allow the Chagrian that pretext given what happened to Sate Pestage.

    Basically: no Rax, no Operation: Cinder, no Battle of Jakku, no Galactic Concordance, leaving a longer fight against the Empire, leading up to the Bastion Accords.

    2. The Vong don't invade. After their encounter with Sekot, the then-current Supreme Overlord decides not to invade until Shimraa and his loyalists (manipulated by Onimi) launch a coup, and the invasion eventually proceeds. This affects Darth Krayt, who was captured at one point, and meets with Vergere. He uses the invasion as one of the catalysts for establishing the One Sith. So, if the invasion doesn't take place, he doesn't get captured, doesn't meet Vergere, and perhaps his inspiration never takes place. Also, Vergere never returns to the galaxy and meets with Lumiya.

    3. Jacen, Jaina and Anakin vs. Ben. This is where Jacen's manipulations get dicey for him. As we know in Legends, Han and Leia never married until after Zsinj was defeated, so around 8 ABY. That's not to say they Ben couldn't have been conceived at the same point in Legends, but that's assume he wasn't. No Ben, but Jacen, Jaina and Anakin later on. This is the one area (that I'm aware of) where Legends characters don't exist in canon. Jacen's manipulations cause Han and Leia to get married and start a family earlier.

    Now, what about Dark Empire and Sidious's return? Well, there was genuine skepticism, among both Mara Jade and I think Lumiya, that the reborn Emperor was really Sidious. But what if it was Snoke posing as Palpatine? Even though the events of the Aftermath Trilogy didn't happen in Legends, Snoke could have seized control of elements of the Empire of the Hand.

    Just fun speculation. :)
     
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  8. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Here's my theory in regards to the two Hammerhead classes:
    After the conclusion of the New Sith Wars Rendili found their popular Hammerhead-class unprofitable. The warships could no longer be realistically produced under the new armament restrictions, so Rendili eventually discontinued the design and later lost their copyright. An emboldened Corellia StarDrive would now reboot their aging Thranta-class, naming it the "Hammerhead Corvette", becoming the new face of the minimized Republic fleet. Centuries later the Rebel Alliance would come into possession of several of these relics. Finally, one century later Mon Cala engineers would model the new MC-140s after the successful Rebellion ships.
     
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  9. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    I'm losing track of all of this changing time business in this thread. I will say that any such time travel/timeline split incident needs to predate at least the 1,032 BBY, if not Dawn of the Jedi.

    Dawn of the Jedi is all about the Je'daii, but never establishes that the first Jedi temple was on Tython, leaving a very small bit of wiggle room that they could have had the first Jedi temple on Ahch-to. So maybe a timeline shift can occur after this if we allow this wiggle room.

    However, the canon Propaganda book makes it very clear that the New Sith wars ended 1,032 BBY or 1,031 BBY (there is a poster for the 1,000th anniversary of the Republic to be held in Valorum's term).
     
  10. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    The thing about Ach-To/Tython is it's possible to create some wiggle room here about how we're defining "first" and "Jedi." Luke calls it the first Jedi Temple, but it may very well be a temple belonging to a proto-Jedi order that gets taken up by a Tho-Yor and brought to Tython.
     
  11. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    TBH, though, the way Luke was talking I'd think it more likely that Ahch-To is where the first Jedi set up shop after transforming from Tython's Je'daii.
     
  12. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    This too.
     
  13. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    I think this way too.

    It's interesting because we have plenty of room for timeline diverence in KOTOR 1 and 2. With L standing for light ending and D for dark ending, we have the possibilities of LL (light ending for KOTOR1 and light ending for KOTOR2, which leads to Legends), LD, DL, and DD. So the Legends universe is one of 4 possibilities when you take into account all light/dark ending combinations for these games.

    The canon universe can easily spring from one of the other 3 possibilities.
     
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  14. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Just have to wait and see when Luke creates his Jedi Academy in canon.
     
  15. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 13, 2017
    Can't really muster any enthusiasm for it, knowing what'll happen. Should still be interesting, all the same.

    Speaking of Legends, what's peoples' gripe with the Vong? Near as I can tell, space orcs that worship death and make the Empire look cuddly in comparison, but that's pretty much the gist of what I got.
     
  16. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    The old gripe.

    ‘That’s not Star Wars.’

    Ignoring that the alien genocidal nuts had been perfectly accepted as decent asides in Marvel and Bantam (Nagai and Yevetha respectively), that the NJO embraced it wholeheartedly is another thing altogether apparently.

    I think everyone who has read to TUF considered for a very long time it to be ‘the’ perfect ending for Legends for a very long time to be fair.


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  17. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I think they had an issue with the Yuuzhan Vong ostensibly being outside of the Force, but besides proving to be of thematic importance, it also distinguished the Yuuzhan Vong and their auxiliaries as being "alien" in a setting famous for the Mos Eisley cantina.
     
  18. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2007
    At this point, my heart-canon is anything included in FFG's X-Wing Miniatures Game. Corran is in the game as an E-Wing pilot, and is packaged with generic pilots from Knave and Blackmoon squadrons (also E'htan A'bhat!). My explanation for this is this: the rough storyline of the Aftermath series plays out as described in Canon, but the New Republic signs the Galactic Concordance with only the largest faction of the Empire, let's say some equivalent of the Moffrence + Mas Ammeda. However, a faction of the Imperial court and the ISB/COMPNOR rejected the treaty and seize Coruscant and parts of the Core for themselves. The events of the Rogue Squadron comics and books (and also Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, which I think is set between the two [except that Luke has been in command of the RRTF since Bakura]) play out, as Ackbar brings the Imperial holdouts to heel, eventually taking Coruscant form Isard and the remnants of the Coruscant Sector Fleet. As in the books, Corran discovers he is Force-sensitive, gets asked by Luke to become his apprentice, and declines so he can continue serving/hunting Isard. The break point comes sometime later: Corran stays in the Republic military, rising to Colonel or General and leading a fighter wing that includes Blackmoon and Knave Squadrons (and possibly Warden Squadron, the last surviving squadron from Salm's Defender Wing after the Republic's military draw down, from the K-Wing expansion pack). By the time Luke decides to strike off into isolation with his students, Horn is already married with children and is unwilling to leave them behind while he goes off to learn to lift rocks.
     
  19. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    From your comment I just had a vision of Luke's Legends New Jedi Order facing off against the Warhammer 40,000 villains: Orks on a waauggh, the Chaos gods, Dark Eldar, the fanatical Imperium of Man under their God Emperor, the Horus Heresy, Tyranids, and more. And Luke thought the Vong were bad? Facing these guys the poor man might just have a mental break worse than anything we saw in TLJ's canon Luke.

    In the grim darkness of a galaxy far, far away, there is only war.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  20. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    Basically the conclusion of the Essential Guide to Warfare.
     
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  21. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    New canon did go out of its way to mention that an Empire survived in the Core and Inner Rim subject to treaty, and we know that systems in the north also remained Imperial at that point - including Jelucan. So that corresponds pretty beautifully with the borders of the Empire during Zsinj’s era, and under Thrawn.

    The new canon also mentioned that the Empire and New Republic fell into a kind of Cold War, which works fairly well as the New Republic did leave the Empire alone in the general unless it played up. We had a good four years of peace between the Empire and Republic at one point.

    Even more so, especially after Byss destroyed, the battles between the Empire and the Republic for the next eight years total no more than a handful of months.

    So the politics are definitely possible, and very much agreeable, across the two continuities.

    The Jedi Order I imagine could match what happened until the end of the Vong War, but see we will. The ‘core’ Jedi could survive, even if the Order is destroyed - in KotoR II the Exile was sold to us as the ‘last Jedi’, but we know that the Jedi Council and Bastila survived in hiding.


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  22. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Wonder what year Luke started his Academy in canon. That will be interesting to see you work around Sinny.
     
  23. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    Actually, it strikes me as rather easy to make it a particular 'class' similar but separate to the class of 11 ABY.
     
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  24. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    My list at http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...ill-reasonably-fit-into-canon.50043107/page-5 runs on the assumption that the 'Jedi Academy' PC game and the Legends novel 'Scourge' can still fit into canon. The group of Jedi seen in these 2 works comprise the entirety of Luke's Jedi, and for some reason (lack of recruits or people with sufficient midichlorian count willing to join?) this group never expanded between 14 ABY and Kylo's Massacre circa 30 ABY. From these 2 works, this basically gives the list of Luke's Jedi possibly still alive as of Kylo's massacre as:

    Luke Skywalker
    Corran Horn
    Kyle Katarn
    Jaden Korr
    Rosh Penin
    Raltharan
    Streen
    Tionne
    Mander Zuma
    Ben Solo

    These fit well within the limits of about a dozen Jedi that Luke mentioned in 8.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  25. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Well we presume the massacre post-dates Bloodline, and the Jedi Order post-dates Jakku, but that’s about it.


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