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Lit One Canon - Merging Legends and the New Canon - TFA spoilers, very much so

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. lotrswxmen8

    lotrswxmen8 Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 29, 2018
    I can agree with the the fact that Rex wasn’t an alpha class ARC, but Gregor was the commander of his republic commando squad so I assume he was bred as a republic commando. It’s also shown on his wrist ID after Colonel Meebur Gascon scans it that he was identified as a clone commando and commander.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  2. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Savage>Grievous
     
  3. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    A spiky headbutt + 1 saber blade is certainly less lethal than being choked by mechanical claws and then being double impaled.
     
  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Don’t look at me. Obsession only fits pre-Dathomir massacre.


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  5. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    So when did Tarre Vizsla join the Jedi and build the darksaber in One Canon? I'm guessing it had to have been between KOTOR 2 and The Old Republic. "This lightsaber was taken by my ancestors from your Jedi Temple during the Fall of the Old Republic" says Pre Vizsla. I think it was always assumed by many (back before the canon reboot) that this line referred to Shae Vizla during the Sack of Coruscant in the Old Republic MMO intro.

    Tarre can't have joined the Jedi before 4,000 BBY--it almost definitely would have been mentioned in the Great Sith War, or by Canderous in KOTORs and Revan. So he had to have joined in the centuries between KOTOR 2 and the Old Republic, I think...
     
  6. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    I think the only "Fall of the Old Republic" could be the New Sith Wars. The Old Republic survived everything prior.
     
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  7. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2016
    In my mind, he was referring to the Sacking of Coruscant. The Old Republic didn’t “fall” per se, but they certainly lost the war and had to give half the galaxy to the Sith.


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    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
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  8. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    There could have been a battle on Coruscant close to the end of the New Sith Wars.
    The Republic Dark Ages after all.
     
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  9. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    The thing is canon and Legends are different. Legends New Sith Wars ended in 1000 BBY and never reached Coruscant, as confirmed in the Bane novels. Canon New Sith Wars had the Sith holding Coruscant for some time until defeated in 1,032 or 1,031 BBY by the Propaganda book.
     
  10. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Valorum was preparing for the millennium anniversary, I recall, so we have no exact period for when Coruscant was taken and fell.

    Being as we have other Sith not at Ruusan even in Legends, including a Sith King I recall, I imagine it’ll be fine to assume that Coruscant fell to Sith to those not at Ruusan.


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  11. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    I always figured it should've token more than Ruusan to end the war.
     
  12. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Which Sith king was this?
     
  13. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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  14. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Considering Farfalla, who defeated Lahzar, was swearing up and down in the Darth Bane books that there were no more Sith--I think we can agree Lahzar was probably killed...?
     
  15. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Yes I know, but it’s an example that not every single Sith went to Ruusan. There was also the assassins that turned up in Rule of Two a decade later.


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  16. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    Honestly, why not have the Sith pushed off Coruscant and then Ruusan?
     
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  17. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    There was an internal logic quoted by the Sith in the PoD that they had to clear the Jedi off Ruusan as they would cut them off from the Rim otherwise, but there is little reason that they cannot be.

    The war between Kaan and Hoth only lasted a decade after all.


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  18. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Not really related to One Canon, but more of a mixture between TCW and Legends since, TCW is still in the Legends Universe. My theory is that the chip was really only intended for independent-minded clone divisions like the ARC Troopers and Republic Commandos, in an attempt to further ensure their loyalty to the future Empire. And since Order 66 was a publicly known GAR Contingency Order, Fives ACTUALLY fell into clone insanity like some of the Starkiller clones, and there was no real conspiracy.
     
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  19. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    These strike me as the more obvious, and probably best approaches for both of these particular issues.


    On the subject of clones, bio-chips, and Order 66:
    Given that the Null-class ARCs are said by the Kaminoans to be absolutely uncontrollable, to the point where they were scheduled to be euthanized as failed experiments rather than undergo the typical "reconditioning" process aberrant clones were subjected to, I'd say it's a reasonable assumption that the Nulls simply did not possess the inhibitor bio-chips. Similarly, considering the Alpha-class that followed was designed and developed to be unaltered from Jango in any way but the standard growth acceleration present in all clones, it's also quite possible—though not as probable—that the Alpha-class ARC troopers were likewise grown without the inhibitor chips implanted. Although, it's also plausible that it's the "failure" of the Null ARCs to meet expected behaviors that prompts Tyranus and the Kaminoans to establish and implant the bio-chips in all subsequent production runs, from the Alphas to the run of the mill troops. When it comes to the clone commandos, however, we do know that these guys are noted to be identical to the standard army troopers, save for the elite training and advanced equipment they're later given to truly set them apart. This suggests that they would be subject to the presence of the bio-chip the same as any typical clone soldier, but unfortunately the one definitive instance we have on record of a commando possessing a bio-chip, Gregor, is somewhat inconclusive since his CC- rather than RC- clone designation also suggests he was a standard army clone that was later crosstrained as a commando, similar to Corr. Though that could also just be a TCW continuity blunder. Hard to say.

    The chips' presence among the clone ranks from troopers as senior as Rex and Wolffe, to younger clones like Tup that were fielded later in the war, heavily implies that the implantation was ubiquitous throughout the Grand Army's standard forces, and not something that was selectively applied. As to @SpecForce Trooper's suggestion that someone like Fives could be an early example of a Spaarti clone...well, even with TCW's general reshuffling of portions of the war's overall timeline, Fives and the rest of Domino were deployed far too early. We're talking the first year of the war vs the final months, and well before the battle of Cartao. Plus, as the omniscient viewers, we saw that they were genuinely raised on the real Kamino, not Centax-2. But speaking of the "second army" of Spaarti clones fielded at the war's end, it seems very probable that they, too, were implanted with bio-chip inhibitors, baring Protocol 66 and likely other new compulsory directives that would be more directly applicable to operating under the early Empire's oversight rather than the Republic.

    Now, having said all of that, how do we account for the varied origins of the clones who chose to disobey Order 66 when it was finally given? Aside from the Nulls, whose almost certain lack of inhibitor chips I've already touched on, we've got ARCs, commandos, and standard army clones who all refused the order at one time or another. The answer comes in Conspiracy, the same episode that introduces the inhibitor chips in the first place: independent growth and the alteration of neural pathways. Simply put, neural pathways determine how the brain thinks, and the way in which an individual thinks and uses their brain, in turn, affects the neural pathways used due to a concept known as neural plasticity. Differences in individual experiences can effectively restructure synapses, sometimes even circumventing damaged or defective portions of the brain, such as the tumor-esque inhibitor chips. Certain clones—such as the commandos of Omega, Ion, or Yayax Squads, ARCs like Maze, and regular troopers like Rex and Grey—may have naturally bypassed their own chips without even realizing it through nothing but lived experiences, strong passions, and simple human brain chemistry.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
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  20. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I disagree on the chip being applied so widely though, why would there be a reason for it? At least, not in the Legends continuity if we're talking about that. Order 66 was one of the GAR Contingency Orders, it was a very public order, and the Jedi Council probably approved of it, with the thought that if a young Padawan got seduced by Dooku, Order 66 could be executed to capture him/her and prevent an entire GAR Army unit from defecting to the CIS. In Legends, Order 66 isn't some ominous thing, but rather just an order, that may have even been 'executed' in the past without our knowledge, like say against Quinlan Vos and Sora Bulq, maybe intentionally so for Sheev to say 'See guys? it's for our own good, same as Order 65'.
     
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  21. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    And that would explain why Palpatine has to contact so many clone trooper commanders to issue the order. It's not simply a button he can press.
     
  22. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    In very short.

    The fighting for Coruscant at the end of the Krytos Trap coincides with the discovery of the Empire on Jakku and the Battle commencing. So the peace between the Empire and Republic is punctuated by mopping-up against the warlords.

    Thrawn‘s initial acts are those of a rogue the Empire disavows, until he seizes the Katana Fleet and a full blown invasion commences, which we know lasts a mere month. This is over a year after Jakku - the length of the five month campaign against Zsinj plus the nine months conception for the twins. Of course a short time after the Dark Empire emerges, but within two years of Jakku the Crimson Empire falls and the short period of skirmishing with legitimate Imperial elements ends.

    A Cold War between imperial territories and the Republic is mostly peaceful for the next eight years, save for rogue actions by Daala and about three months of combat between the True Empire and New Republic across that period - which ends with the Remnant, not an original signatory of the Galactic Concordance, signing the Bastion Accords as an addendum to the peace treaty, ten years after the Battle of Jakku.

    Six years later the Yuuzhan Vong arrive, and four years later they are defeated, but the relevance of the Galactic Alliance deteriorated as ex-Imperial planets sign up to the New Republic, and as such there were few sectors not signed up to the New Republic anyway. The First Orders emergence makes the Alliance even more irrelevant when it does not acknowledge the Alliance or indeed the Remnant, and the Jedi Order’s destruction snuffs a Light from the galaxy entirely.

    The acts of Ben and Jacen act as the pivot between events.

    The One Sith and Daala do, it is likely, sit out and watch the affair with some amusement. However Snoke and the First Order watch the rise of Caedus, the Tribe, Daala and Abeloth with similar amusement.

    However, I have yet to rhyme whether the Dark Nest Crisis takes place before or after time is irrevocably changed. My gut is that it does. Legacy of the Force seems more likely to be after time changed due to constraints in the One timeline.


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  23. Raab Katarn

    Raab Katarn Jedi Youngling

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    Feb 3, 2018
    Hey Sinrebirth, I joined explicitly because of this One Canon project and because I saw a neat Clone Wars timeline done by @HEDGESMFG.

    Their list was a pretty thorough list of the works to read/watch/play and in what order. I looked through this but couldn't find anything like that. I saw a lot of in-depth discussion on how to fit the two continuities together, along with what books/media you used to come up with your One Canon explanation/retcons/whatever to get them to fit.

    I used their list as a base and also added some of my own personal headcanon ideas to mend some things (such as headcanoning Alpha-17 and Captain Rex into one person as well as identifying the blue ARC Trooper on Muunilinst in the Microseries as Alpha who goes on to take Anakin's advice about names and becomes Rex. The only issue this leaves is that he returns in Obsession and is still Alpha, that and they're shocked at the names. It's not for everyone but reading every instance of "Alpha" as "Rex" just seems like it works IMO. As for the shock, literally skipping one word bubble after Alpha mentions "Odd Ball" solves that. As for the issue of him being on the same medical frigate as Ventress (which would make one ponder why he doesn't inform the Jedi that Ventress survived yet again), it's easy enough to believe that he was loaded onto another ship instead... there clearly are multiple medical ships anyway.

    ANYWAY... I'm just wondering the exact order of works, not necessarily events, though they definitely go hand in hand, of your One Canon timeline.

    I mostly have the Clone Wars figured out and I even pretty much get some of the early and late Dark Times stuff. For instance TFU1 comes before the Secret Cargo episode of Rebels (i currently have it placed just before it to account for how she's now on the run and going into hiding from the Empire; makes sense to me since she was just aboard the Death Star). I then like the idea that she and the other leaders kept the information on the Death Star secret and then toward the end of the war, it comes out.

    It basically goes, for me:

    • Rogue One: Leia escapes Scarif and heads to Polis Massa where another set of plans from Danuta are beamed to her ship.
    • Dark Forces Mission 1/Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire: We see the mission to Danuta with Kyle Katarn
    • Battlefront 2 (2005) Campaign: Polis Massa missions where the 501st and Vader were searching for the plans. Headcanon is that this is where the Danuta plans were beamed to the Tantive IV before it departed. Tantive departed before the Devastator arrived, thus making Vader lose the trail of the unknown CR90 corvette that was at Scarif.
    • Jedi Dawn/Rebel Dawn: Battle of Toprawa was occurring concurrently with Scarif and continues a bit after it. The Tantive IV arrives under the guise of a mercy mission and Vader is alerted to the attack and heads there. The Tantive stalls by using its diplomatic immunity but the Devastator sees that the two fragments of the DS plans are beamed to the ship (though they don't know the transmissions WERE the plans and they also don't know if this is the same corvette... just that it's mighty suspicious that it happens to be here at yet another battle on a planet with the D.S. plans. Too convenient. Before they can board, Tantive makes the jump to Tatooine and the Devastator follows.
    • Headcanon for the plans is as follows:
      • Scarif contained the explicit description of Galen Erso's engineered fatal flaw down to using an exhaust port that leads to the center
      • Danuta plans contain information on weapon emplacements and engineering details (including the vital information of WHICH exhaust port actually leads to the center)
      • two sections of the Toprawa plans -- the one acquired by Havet are about the superlaser and the one acquired by Tharen are about life support systems and the hull. This is basically what was established in Legends anyway, just now with the added Scarif component.

    Anyway, I would love to see a chronological list of works, not the description of events, especially if you also have information on where to stop in a book and then switch to another story before hopping back into the first of you're going for perfect chronology. For instance, does Truce at Bakura come before or after Aftermath? It's one thing to look on the wiki and try to see which comes first but it is kind of tough.

    Also, this may not be for everyone BUT... I do think this works when it comes to stuff immediately after ROTS -- anyone know if there are glaring issues with this?

    • CLONE WARS VOL. 9: ENDGAME (Dark Horse)
      • Star Wars Republic 81: Hidden Enemy Part 1
      • Star Wars Republic 82: Hidden Enemy Part 2
      • Star Wars Republic 83: Hidden Enemy Part 3
      • Star Wars Republic 79: Into the Unknown Part 1
      • Star Wars Republic 80: Into the Unknown Part 2
    • KANAN VOL. 1 (Marvel)
      • Issues 1-6
    • STAR WARS DARTH VADER: DARK LORD OF THE SITH VOL. 1: IMPERIAL MACHINE (Marvel)
      • Dark Lord of the Sith 1: The Chosen One, Part I
      • Dark Lord of the Sith 2: The Chosen One, Part II
      • Dark Lord of the Sith 3: The Chosen One, Part III
      • Dark Lord of the Sith 4: The Chosen One, Part IV
      • Dark Lord of the Sith 5: The Chosen One, Part V
      • Dark Lord of the Sith 6: The Chosen One, Part VI
        • Read up to the page where Vader begins customizing his Sith armor, stop before the Jedi Temple scene & his first meeting with Grand Inquisitor.
    • STAR WARS: PURGE (Dark Horse)
      • Star Wars: Purge
      • Star Wars: Purge -- Seconds to Die
      • Star Wars: Purge -- The Hidden Blade
      • Star Wars: Purge -- The Tyrant’s Fist Part 1
      • Star Wars: Purge -- The Tyrant’s Fist Part 2
        • Inconsistency: Throughout the Purge series, Palpatine seems disinterested in the Jedi and acts as if they are no longer a threat to his regime and wishes Vader would stop being obsessed with hunting them and Kenobi while in issue 6 of the canon Dark Lord of the Sith, Sidious has formed the Inquisitorius to hunt the Jedi and claims that “in truth, there is no greater threat to their Empire” than the Jedi. Vader also appears to have his normal hilt while in the canon Dark Lord of the Sith comic, he’s using a Jedi’s hilt with a crystal that has been “bled.”
        • Headcanon Explanation: Palpatine was attempting to kill off what was left of Skywalker that remained inside of Lord Vader. His obsession with Kenobi was a lingering connection. The only other previous connection, Padme, had been destroyed at the end of Episode III. Sidious didn’t want Vader to hunt down the rest of the Jedi because he was desperately searching for Kenobi -- he wanted Vader to hunt the rest of the Jedi with the Inquisitorius purely to ensure the Empire’s survival. As for Vader’s lightsaber, this is simply a matter of ignoring the hilt and pretending it’s still the Jedi’s hilt during Purge.
    • DARK LORD: THE RISE OF DARTH VADER (Novel) -- this could be placed either before the canon DLOTS comics and Legends Purge comics, in between like this, or it could be placed afterward. Anyone knows what works better? I've never actually read this one.
    • STAR WARS DARTH VADER: DARK LORD OF THE SITH VOL. 1: IMPERIAL MACHINE (Marvel)
      • Dark Lord of the Sith 6: The Chosen One, Part VI: Read the rest of the comic in which Vader meets with and battles the Grand Inquisitor at the Jedi Temple and learns of the Inquisitorius.
        • Inconsistency: The Inquisitorius seems to canonically be the only faction of the Empire tasked with hunting down the last of the Jedi and Force Sensitive children for potential use by the Empire compared to the Legends continuity which featured the Inquisitorius (albeit structured very differently) as well as the Emperor’s Hand.
        • Headcanon: The three groups, the one Canon and two Legends, are combined into a single Inquisitorius, sometimes referred to by its nickname the “Emperor’s Hand” the same way the 501st is sometimes referred to as “Vader’s Fist.” The Inquisitors seen in Canon sources, such as the Grand Inquisitor and the various “Brothers” and “Sisters” are only one faction of the Inquisitorius. There are a number of other Inquisitors out there as well. This is just my personal headcanon; the idea of the Inquisitorius and Emperor's Hand as two separate factions still should work as it always had, more or less.

    Anyway, just thought I'd share my own ideas and see if you've put together a viewing list in a similar fashion! I'm on mobile so apologies if you've already posted it and I somehow missed it! My wifi isn't working so I've had to use just my phones data for the internet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  24. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I’m keeping my powder relatively dry when it comes to the post-RotS story, as I expect a few more twists and turns yet. The Inquisitors point is relatively necessary, at this stage.

    As to Clone Wars, that is a work In progress.

    I can supply you a booklist for post-Endor to TUF at this point if you wish, similarly the pre-ANH bits.


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    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  25. Raab Katarn

    Raab Katarn Jedi Youngling

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    Feb 3, 2018
    Yes please! That'd be awesome because trying to juggle all the Legends stuff with Canon in those two particular eras is a lot more complicated than what I've had to do thus far and I already used someone else's work as a basis for that as it is haha.

    I'm also rereading Shatterpoint now to see if there's any way to marry the two versions of the Battle of Haruun Kal together considering how utterly different they are. I'm looking for any opportunity where the two of them, Mace and Depa, are separated long enough that she could be reunited with her troops, Grievous secretly shows up, kills 90% of her troops, and then duels her. If I can, I can reason that she didn't succumb to the severe wounds because of the Dark Side and used the pain to fuel her. Grievous is never brought up because next thing we know, she's fighting Mace herself and then realizes what she's doing. Once she lets go of the Dark Side, the wounds and pain catch up to her and bam, comatose. At the time, Mace and others had no idea Grievous was there so they initially chalk it up to different reasons. Battle seemingly ends in a Republic victory as in Legends only once the Republic forces pull out, Grievous sweeps in and takes it over resulting in, ultimately, a Separatist win as in Canon. Because Depa was corrupted at the time and shortly thereafter in a coma, the Republic had no idea Grievous was there. They only learned that after the fact. It may not mesh perfectly with the description from the Kanan comics which I still need to read. I just looked up the canon version of the battle on Wookieepedia. It's a bit hamfisted but honestly, I think it'll be necessary in order to preserve Shatterpoint which, let's face it, is a FAR more interesting and unique story than -- Depa's forces battle Grievous' forces, Grievous battles Depa and puts her in a coma. Bummer they went so far canonizing Haruun Kal and even her being put into a coma only to change what the battle actually was but it is what it is! Because the book is told from Mace's perspective, I'm just searching for the best moment where we can shove the events of the Canon battle in before the end of the novel.

    The only other alternative is that there are two battles of Haruun Kal which both end in Depa becoming comatose and that's just absurd so I really hope that isn't the only way to get them to work.

    But I definitely want to see that booklist! I'm also curious how well Thrawn meshes with the old Thrawn material. Some of this may be subject to change if his fate is ultimately different in Rebels (which I have a bad feeling may very well be the case) but depending on how it plays, even that sort of thing can be shrugged off -- it wouldn't be the first time Thrawn would return in some way after supposedly dying...