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Lit One Canon - Merging Legends and the New Canon - TFA spoilers, very much so

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    You have to ask? Of course.
     
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  2. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Knight star 2

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    Apr 26, 2016
    Good points. Canon Inquisitorius is complex because it´s designed to replace a number of dark side organizations, having at the same time a far more limited number of members. And, as you say, Hands apparently were under the impression they were unique, so it´s unlikely that they were ever made feel part of an organization.

    What could work is that Canon Inquisitors are some kind of "field" agents, doing the actual Jedi hunting, and a small number of Legend´s ones work as High Inquisitors, personal interrogators for the Emperor that keep in check the activities of Jedi, Jedi sympathizers within the Senate and the Imperial Court, other dark siders in the Empire, etc.

    About the Hands, someone like Cronal would work well in the role of silently monitoring their performances, providing additional training, etc, and the theoretical fallen Hand could logically become a target of the Inquisitorius if Palpatine desires so, but besides that, to see them as completely independent in their workings sounds consistent to their nature...
     
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  3. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I’m inclined to consider the Numbered Inquisitors the Dark side aides to Vader, while the Hands are the same to Sidious. A specific set of darksiders within the greater whole. With two sets, because Sith.


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  4. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    And maybe Vader and Sidious keep an eye on the most talented Inquisitor or Hand as a potential replacement should there be an opening for a Sith Lord. At least, until Luke became known to them.
     
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  5. spicer

    spicer Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2012
    Small digression on my part, but a thing that I've noticed from the Thrawn issue #1 preview
    Imperial troops that wear Phase II Clone Trooper armour are referred to as Stormtroopers. In the early days of the Empire it was the same in Legends as well.
     
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  6. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    EU Inquisitors are a part of Intelligence. Maybe their NuCanon relatives are part of the Army or Navy. Each branch could get it's own group, and their uses would differ.
     
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  7. Raab Katarn

    Raab Katarn Jedi Youngling

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    Feb 3, 2018
    Okay, so Inquisitorius is made up of two subgroups: Canon and Legends versions, and Emperor's Hand is another group.

    The numbered Inquisitors versus EU Inquisitors are fair enough. But if there was some sort of hierarchy between the two, what is it? Because both versions have Grand Inquisitors at the top but Canon only has the one from 19 BBY-5 BBY. But in Legends, there's more than one over the course of the Dark Times. I guess this is still fixed simply by considering them two separate branches of a greater "Inquisitorius." That was one reason I suggested grouping Emperor's Hand under the larger Inquisitorius thing but I guess it really doesn't matter if it's a separate group entirely. The issue lies more in both Canon and Legends descriptions of Inquisitorius. In fact trying to group the Hand in May just cause more issues if there are any stories specifically with the Hand and Inquisitorius in them which... idk, are there any?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  8. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
    The Hands don't really fit into any hierarchy because officially they don't exist. However their existence is known to certain high ranking groups, such as the Inquisitorius and it could be assumed that they'd be placed above them if a hierarchy was to include them. I'd also assume that the Legends Inquisitors would be top ranked, due to their placement in Intelligence and the Canon Inquisitors would rank slightly below them, but above the Hands.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  9. Raab Katarn

    Raab Katarn Jedi Youngling

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    Feb 3, 2018
    I get that but for instance, "Third Echelon" doesn't officially exist in Splinter Cell either but they still answer to the Joint Chiefs, are given the Fifth Freedom for certain missions (or not given the Fifth Freedom), etc. Vader also exists in a sort of a nebulous, or tenuous at best, sort of ranking within the Empire. He leads the 501st, so much so that they're called Vader's Fist, but a lot of rebels are implied to not really know who he is. He's the Emperor's apprentice and a Sith Lord but takes the occasional order from Tarkin as seen in ANH. There are explanations to account for this, naturally, but yeah.

    I was mostly wondering what the hierarchy would be between just the two versions of the Inquisitorius since they both have "Grand Inquisitor" as a rank which makes things a bit more difficult than if the Grand Inquisitor in Rebels had been named something like "High Inquisitor" instead. The issue of the Inquisitors being two separate groups is a little weird. It'd be like having two different branches of the military both called Navy. Like, what? But, uh, I don't really have a better explanation for it sooo [face_dunno]
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  10. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Knight star 2

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    Apr 26, 2016
    Two separate branches sounds good! It could be seen the numbered Inquisitors system ("Inquisitorius Program") as something of an heritage from the Grand Inquisitor´s past as a Temple Guard, renouncing one´s identity in service of a greater Order. Maybe the members from the Legends Inquisitorius avoided this because of seniority, working for Palpatine before even the GI (Like Laddinare Torbin, Director of Information of the Judicial Department even during the Clone Wars).

    I imagine both branches could have a Grand Inquisitor, even if that rank is now the personal name of one of it´s holders. The closest rank to parallel the one of Grand Inquisitor in Legends that I can remember was the Pentastar Alignment´s Zenithal InQuestor of Judgment. It was mostly an specific Imperial remnant faction´s version of the same rank.

    I completely agree!
     
  11. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
    Wouldn't be hard at all. Just have two different Grand Inquisitors. One per group. Or, have that one Grand Inquisitor be in charge of both.

    Another possible solution is to treat them as the same group, and just treat them as a division of both the army and imperial intelligence at once. There's nothing saying you can't do that.


    Grand Inquisitors also existed in Legends.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  12. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Knight star 2

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    Apr 26, 2016
    Oh, yes, absolutely! Torbin all the way!! :D I was thinking in the way of @Raab Katarn problem, which I understand: it´s hard to talk about two Grand Inquisitors, since now there is a character that actually answers to that rank as his personal name... but that Zenithal InQuestor of Judgement was the only rank I could think that would be equivalent.

    Still, there could also just be two Grand Inquisitors (or even more) if it´s especified that one of them is the Coruscant one, the Prakith one, etc, or even the Imperial one (understanding Imperial as the one that report all Inquisitorius activity to the Emperor directly).

    I could be mistaken, but I think that in the "Last of the Jedi" series, Malorum and Hydra weren´t referred as Grand Inquisitors but as Head Inquisitors. Still, I don´t think that one caught on...
     
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  13. Raab Katarn

    Raab Katarn Jedi Youngling

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    Feb 3, 2018
    That's pretty much it. It's definitely not the hardest issue to rectify/retcon (headcon?) in terms of reconciling Legends with Canon but it's just interesting nonetheless. Imagine a Canon Emperor's Hand that's different from Legends. I guess then we'd just say one is the Left Hand and one if the Right Hand. But it would make things just a teeny bit more difficult to work out.

    Do we know the significance of the "Brother and Sister" naming pattern as well from the DLOTS comics? They're numbered which sort of indicates rank? Maybe? Sorta? But what about the Brother/Sister thing. @Ithorians -- you think that's some sort of legacy element of the Temple Guard aspect as well?
     
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  14. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Knight star 2

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    Apr 26, 2016
    Without wanting to derail the thread too much, that´s a very curious, different thing about Canon Inquisitorius! It´s entirely possible that Charles Soule comes up with something very different and interesting and I end up being way off, but at this point, my best guess it´s that their ranking has to do with the moment they are inducted into the Inquisitorius, and therefore it would be a matter of seniority.

    Fifth Brother, at some point, pulled rank on the Seventh Sister, and even if they normally spoke in equal terms, 5th was the one doing all the talking to Vader, and also to Kallus, Konstantine, etc. I can only guess that´s why they kept the same "name": even if 7th did a great job, it didn´t change the moment she was inducted. But the chance to be the new Grand Inquisitor could indeed change that, hence their eagerness to impress Vader in Rebels season 2...

    Dave Filoni once said that he saw the Inquisitorius as a dark mirror of the Jedi Order. A sect or cult (like the Prophets of the Darkside?) that bonded their members in (ruthless, competing) brotherhood. Seems different from the Legends one, and they were also hinted at some point to have some kind of ability to communicate with the Emperor directly. Not sure if it was Force related, but if it was, they may have an element of the Hands in them as well...
     
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  15. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    Funnily enough, the term 'Emperor's hand' is actually canon already via Gar Saxon in Rebels. Though in terms of a more holistic canon (which I'm coming to prefer as a term to 'One Canon', BTW) approach, I'm not sure if I'd actually consider him one, as the role seems completely different even considering the vagueness of the Hands' remit.
     
  16. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    We’re looking at this logically.

    Palpatine’s structure for the Empire epitomised the Rule of Two; that various organisations overlapped and competed. Intelligence and the ISB, for example, and then COMPNOR. For every creation he made, another shadowed it - the Executor and Lusankya for example.

    Sidious and Vader represent that conflict. The Empire should too.

    As such I doubt there is a hierarchy between the two Grand Inquisitors - or even the two Grand Viziers, Amedda and Pestage. Amedda however represents the legitimate successor to Palpatine as the former Vice Chancellor. Pestage thus leads the Ruling Council.

    Yet, with the Grand Inquisitors, the numbered circle seem to be aloof from the system entirely, while the others are entrenched in the system - forming part of the Ruling Circle, acquiring fortunes and Destroyers and loyalists, especially the High Inquisitors. It’s almost as if the numbered Inquisitors are anti-Jedi with a narrow role, and the Legends are Dark Jedi in full, complete with holdings and ambitions.

    The numbered Inquisitors are weapons, the others, components of the Dark Empire to come.


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  17. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2015
    @Sinrebirth as of now the birth of all of Han and Leia's kids in the one canonverse isn't a problem because Ben was born in 5ABY where as Jacen and Jaina weren't born until 9ABY. However given that we will probably get a very detailed description of the post ROTJ-Pre TFA timeline in the next five years it could cause some problems because Leia obviously won't have anymore pregnancies in canon.

    If there is a lot of story being told about Leia in canon around 9ABY will you simply move Jaina and Jacen's birth around a bit to a point where Leia isn't quite as active in the story?
     
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  18. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Well we had to move the fall of Coruscant to coincide with the Battle of Jakku, so the births of the twins ended up moved forward too.

    Five months after Jakku is the Courtship of Princess Leia, and so it’s relatively acceptable to assume Jacen and Jaina are born 9 months later, about the time Thrawn sieges Coruscant, and then after Thrawn does Anakin Solo is born nine months later. Twenty three months after Jakku I assume all four are born, and a month later the Crimson Empire falls and the legitimate Empire defeated.


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  19. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Knight star 2

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    Apr 26, 2016
    Exactly. Sadly, I think that Saxon mention is a hint that there is no intention to bring back Mara Jade (at least as we know her), nor the Hands. But in terms of a holistic canon ;) I would personally just ignore Saxon´s comment. In his context it sounds like an honorary title, differing greatly from the Legends one...
    What you say works perfectly, I think. About the dignitaries, I imagined Amedda as Speaker of the Senate and Pestage as Grand Vizier (old habits die hard!). It would be lovely to know more about Pestage in canon... and of Ars Dangor, Janus Greejatus and Kren Blista-Vanee. All got moments in the Tarkin novel as members of the Ruling Council except Sim Aloo, who seems to have been somewhat forgotten in canon...
     
  20. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2015
    Lol. Han would have been a happy camper during that time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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  21. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    You’ve probably just made it so the Gods make it so that pregnancy occurs for you after the one time. Well done :p


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  22. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
    No wonder Han left Leia after Ben turned. :p
     
  23. Raab Katarn

    Raab Katarn Jedi Youngling

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    Feb 3, 2018
    I had totally forgotten about that! Yeah it is quite a bit different. Gar's a Left Hand, Mara Jade is a Right Hand. C A N O N.


    P.S. So I've finished with my story that seeks to reconcile the differences between the Canon and Legend versions of the Battle of Haruun Kal but I'll still need to edit it.

    I've also begun writing the Asajj Ventress short story to explain some of the discrepencies between TCW and Obsession. Over the course of writing it, I realized that I needed to explain even more inconsistencies between her old story and the depiction seen in TCW. Namely:
    • Her Rattataki heritage as opposed to being "Dathomirian" which is as simple as the same explanation used for Maul and Savage -- they're Dathomirian because they live on Dathomir, but they're still obviously Zabraks. In Ventress's case, she's a Rattataki born on Dathomir, which helps set up the resolution to the next point..
    • Ventress's war lord parents on Rattatak as seen in Republic 60: Hate and Fear versus Hal'sted, the Siniteen slaver who took her to Rattatak and apparently raised her as seen in TCW.
    • Why she leaves Dooku's side, returns to kill him multiple times, then leaves in an escape pod... only to resurface in Obsession, suddenly working for Dooku again before... once again leaving him when he betrays her (again). My explanation also accounts for something someone mentioned about Dark Disciple in which she apparently doesn't know who Vos is despite Legends establishing they were all part of Dooku's Dark Acolytes, not to mention that she specifically tracked him and Skywalker to Coruscant.
    • Mention that she and Rex (Alpha) are not on the same medical frigate.
    • How she gets from the medical frigate to the other frigate she's on when she arrives on Tatooine in the episode Bounty.
    The only issue I can't seem to fix are Anakin's multiple comments in Obsession about how he killed her on Coruscant so that there's NO WAY she could be alive. Considering Dreadnaughts of Rendili comes during the first half of the first year of the Wars and obviously before Christophsis and Sullust, this is just a big ol' silly inconsistnecy that I can't really fix without just saying "um -- replace those instances in your head with him saying 'she died during the battle of Sullust!' instead of 'I killed her on Coruscant!'" If anyone has any ideas on how I COULD account for that issue, I'm open to suggestions.

    The other short story I'm working on retcons Alpha and Rex into the same character. I also just realized that Rex is kind of an amalgam of Alpha and Captain Fordo: Rex is blue like Alpha and was initially supposed to be Alpha but he's a Captain and uses dual pistols like Fordo and has Jaig eyes on his helmet like Phase 2 Fordo. This has no bearing on making Alpha and Rex the same although I might imply it was Fordo's suggestion that he start to favor dual pistols. Like the above issue, this short story gives both Rex and Alpha a greater character arc by making them one and the same but it also requires one to ignore people calling him 'Alpha' in Obsession and mentally replace it with 'Rex.'
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  24. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2016
    So, during the Aftermath series, Wedge gets injured/tortured, spends months recuperating, then forms Phantom Squadron, then gets disciplined and is grounded until Jakku, where he again flys with Phantom Squadron.

    How do we square this with the X-wing series supposedly ongoing during the same period?


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  25. Raab Katarn

    Raab Katarn Jedi Youngling

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    Feb 3, 2018
    I thought this was brought up before so I just checked. Not sure if this helps you but...

    (Not sure what's being referred to here but at least @PCCViking saw some a parallel of some sort?)

     
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