ST One of the most Complained about things in TLJ...

Has to be the liberties Rian Johnson Took with the Force, I really don't think This,
the part where Luke and Vader talk through the Force,

and this were that different.

these two kinds of interpretations of the Force were very similar kind of a telepathy the difference water and feel can be transferred to one another in TLJ but still very similar.
the other Force ability we really didn't see in any other Star Wars movie was Force Projection but was it really foreign to Star Wars? I believe we saw things like this in the Clone Wars Cartoon and Rebels Cartoon and books and possibly comics I personally thought it was cool. what do you guys think was these Force Abilities something that made TLJ a bad movie or did you like them or come to accept them?

 

IMO, the “forcetime” power between Rey and Kylo was a clever and mostly appropriate use of The Force. The force has been used to communicate across distances in other SW movies and TLJ felt like it was utilizing this power within reason. Importantly, it worked well on screen. The rationale for how it came about was maybe too sloppy (the idea that Snoke can just choose to connect people seems to be too strong and open for abuse), but at least they tried to limit its implications by implying there is a unique relationship between Rey and Kylo that allows for this to happen. This can’t just happen to anybody, there is something special about them.

But that is where the problems start. What exactly is there relationship? Are they related by blood or are they really unrelated? Are they spiritual avatars of the light and dark sides, and if so are they the only ones? Are they just a boy and girl in love? Is their connection entirely due to Snoke and nothing else? Are they still in each other's heads after Kylo's telepathic violation in TFA? None of these questions are adequately explained, and so while I think there could be a reasonable justification for this power being used, I don’t think TLJ earns that justification.

 

I feel that "Force Skype" and how it compares to other aspects of Force telepathy does merit its own thread (if there isn't already one?) although the title should probably be changed to something more straightforward.

Anywho, my interpretation is that Kylo and Rey formed a bond in TFA but it was Snoke who enabled them to see each other through it.

Their connection seemed to open at very specific moments (so that they saw each other's vulnerabilities) which ultimately resulted in Rey siding with Kylo and turning against Luke.

 

From the beginning of TFA when Kylo Ren stopped a blaster bolt in mid-air I felt like they were taking liberties with the Force in this trilogy. At this point I’ve gotten used to these things, and I can just go with them.

 

The relationship is that Snoke could manipulate their respective needs and set a trap for one of them.

 

My biggest problem wasn't the "skyping" itself - It was that the relationship between Rey and Ren which just felt incredibly out of place and creepy given that these scene's were happening like 48hrs after Rey had watched this psychopath murder Han Solo (and leave her friend Finn - who see totally forgets about all the way through the film - in a coma)

She should be completely repulsed and repelled for Ben Solo from what she's seen of him in the previous two days? Yet one look at his ab's and a couple of force skype sessions and she's racing off to "save" him?

So yeah, the force abilities/skyping etc. Is just a "means to and end" and is the least problematical issue with the scenes... The real problem is what the whole scenario does to Rey's character.

 

Well, it is the setbacks/complication middle in the trilogy. She’s meant to be tested. Most wanted more physical tests. They made hers more psychological to reveal more of her character since some of her psychological weaknesses in TFA weren’t tested to the extent they could be in order to focus more on her strengths and make her more likable for the start of the trilogy.

Her hero doesn’t want to teach any more.
Her hero doesn’t want to return.
Mysterious mind bridge has her connected to her enemy’s mind.
She makes choice to keep this secret from mentor.
Kylo Ren plants sees of doubt regarding Luke having fear and envy of powerful students to her just as Luke is showing signs of worry to her about her power being similar to Ben’s.
Kylo Ren forces her abandonment issues to the forefront.
Dark Side cave shows her that she will never learn more anything of significance about her parents.
Grows impatient and feels abandoned by Luke and alone.
Begins to see Ben Solo within Kylo Ren. Starts to like Ben Solo and not Kylo Ren.
Grows impatient with mentor and trusts manipulations of Kylo Ren.
Turns on Luke and leaves him.
Seeks to utilize Force vision of the future in the belief that Ben Solo will return from Kylo Ren and deliver a happy ending.
Kylo Ren instead takes over more of Ben Solo’s body with glimmers of Ben Solo coming through in the offer and plenty more Kylo Ren.
He throws her abandonment in her face once more. He tells her that whatever lie she was telling herself about why her parents left or weren’t coming back is just that. They gave her up for drinking money and are dead now.
He tries to make her feel like nobody will value her as he will.
Rey shows first signs of doubt in victory at the end for the first time in saga and leans on Leia for support instead of being the one who is the bright light of optimism in any room she’s in.

As for the reasons why she might warm up to the idea that Ben Solo might come back and leave Kylo Ren behind:

* The mysterious mind bridge she perhaps mistakes as something it isn’t and more about them being connected by the Force itself. The mind bridge works as almost a mystery box for them and it’s logical they’d be speculating on it.
* The vision of the future of Ben Solo killing Snoke and how he'll turn.
* The idea that Luke was able to see the light in Vader too.
* The potential attraction and feelings she has developed for Ben Solo and not Kylo Ren as she's seen some of the Light that still exists within him via her Force connection and some of their talks.
* The idea that if he does come back the Resistance could win and her friends would no longer have a powerful enemy.
* The idea that as someone who's family abandoned her she might be able to help out a family whose son abandoned them.
* The idea that she could possibly learn more about herself and the Force with him.
* The fact that she's mind probed him and knows more about what’s inside him than we do.

 

Yes. It's pointless imposing "normal" values on Rey and Ren's relationship. Neither of them has had the experience, via the force, that they are having. They both correctly interpret it as having something to do with fulfilling the needs inside of them. Neither suspects that it's a trap.

 

I can’t edit now but when I wrote that she might be thinking she could learn more about the Force and herself because he told her he knows about her parents and mentions it later. He’s also blunt. I’m not yet sure but it’s possible she values people who are to the point and willing to tell her what’s truly on their mind more than we thought. Some people are like that. Especially if they don’t easily come to uncomfortable realizations within themselves on their own. They don’t want their hand held unless they are the ones initiating it. In a doctor’s office they might say “Give it to me straight Doctor” or something like that. Some people appreciate that quality in others for a number of reasons.

Perhaps she doesn’t like butt kissers who only tell her what they think she wants to hear either. Maz was blunt with her, too. Perhaps she appreciated that initially in Ben but then in the Throne room saw Kylo Ren come out even more and move from that to just flat out gaslighting and that disappointed her.

So, I was trying to get at a mix of those potential ideas that could have also been running through her mind when I wrote that she might be thinking he could possibly show her more about the Force and herself if he’d turned and the good she’s seen within him came out.

 

It is my understanding that nobody is forced to watch the new Star Wars movies.

If some fans do not want or like the new things being done, then it is very simple, just ignore the new movies and that's all.

 

Surely we need to have thrice weekly reminders from them that they don't want, watch or like certain movies though?

 

The force Skyping isn’t the force philosophy that bothered me in TLJ at all. I would be fine with that as a skill. I have two problems with the force Skype:

1. It was gimmicky to accomplish the goal of making Kylo and Rey hang out, which is the kind of story-telling I find inauthentic and tacky. The story should flow naturally for the characters, not be contorted to suit a plot that doesn’t fit their current states at all; and

2. The Rey and Kylo bonding is heinous and shallow and terribly written. The force Skype is the means by which that is accomplished, so it takes heat I guess.

But I don’t agree with the premise that it’s one of the most criticized aspects of the force. I haven’t noticed that personally. It’s just a means to a plot point. I think the “light rising to meet the dark” stuff is far more criticized, and for me, that’s the force retcon that deserves the brunt of the criticism. It has much larger lore implications than the force Skype, which just impacts (hugely negatively) the quality and depth of Rey’s journey.

 

I don’t care too much about what can or cannot be done with the Force. I’m much more interested in understanding character psychology and motivations. The Force is supposed to be mysterious, to a degree. What drives characters and how they feel is not.

 

But it was engineered by Snoke in order to entrap them. It didn't come out of their "current states". It was intended to manipulate them.

In fact, Snoke openly mocks their shared interpretation of the significance of their force connection.

 

I understand that the gimmicky explanation for the gimmick was it was all part of Snoke’s plan to find Luke and test Kylo by making him murder a stranger after he murdered his dad, because the stranger is the ultimate test.

My husband and I watched Heat this weekend, which I know this is crazy but neither of us had ever seen. This movie is a battle of wits between Pacino and De Niro, cop and criminal. They have a very Reylo-Esque scene where they get coffee and kind of respect each other in a weird way. They do it by choice though. They have agency. Still, having Reylo in my system, I started to worry that Pacino was going to let the violent narcissist that gets innocent people killed go at the end because they’re all friendly now, so who needs to stand for anything? I didn’t need to worry though. Heat is a phenomenal movie. These two guys sort of developed a respect for each other, but they each stand for something fundamentally at odds with the other, and you can’t blur that.

 

The force Skyping was problematic in that it seemed too similar to the force projection that Luke did, so it made Luke’s projection seem less impressive, especially since it killed him. But I didn’t really have a problem with the Skyping or projection as force skills. My biggest problem was that Rey sort of downloaded force skills from Kylo. I think there should be mentors and teaching involved in training new Jedi. There shouldn’t be “ instant Jedi” in Star Wars. It makes being a Jedi seem less important and less of an achievement.

 

Oh definitely, how could I forget that? Yes it cheapens Luke’s big moment because it looks exactly the same and it doesn’t kill Snoke.

The “instant Jedi” thing is really what I was getting at with light rising to meet the dark. The brain download stuff isn’t in the movie and I can ignore that. The movie explanation for instant Jedi is light rising to meet blah blah.

 

You need to support your assertion that Snoke making his apprentice the bait and Luke's would be new apprentice the prey is a gimmick. The force connection itself cannot, by definition, be a gimmick since it has been seen before in ESB (and an ROTJ deleted scene).

 

I don’t need to do anything, but thank you I am choosing to engage in discussion.

I don’t know how you are using the word “gimmick” there. Maybe you should define it, because clearly that’s not how I’m using.

It isn’t a gimmick because it’s pulled out of thin air. It’s a gimmick to the plot because it forces characters to do something instead of building the story to lead them to choose to do something. As far as Snoke, his absurd plan makes no sense and is thrown in to rationalize the gimmick.

 

The story is that they are being manipulated by a third party and they are developing within that context. Otherwise there is no context at all for them discovering more about each other. Plus Ben thinks it might please his master. Rey assumes she can show Luke there's hope (which is what she was sent there for).

What part of this is absurd?

Is it absurd that a master manipulator like Snoke would create conditions that force people to behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't?

He is conflicted. She is not yet wise enough. Sounds like the classic ill fated relationship framed with the requisite Star Wars ingredients - destiny, feelings, compassion etc.

 

His plan for the 2 movies was to find Skywalker. It worked because of the connection.