PT "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Is there any good defense of this line or is it actually bad?

It's incredibly reflective of the Jedi Order's own internal failings throughout the entirety of the PT. For as wise and powerful as they were, the Jedi of the era were incredibly closed-minded and unable to tell what was going on right underneath their noses.

 

they knew there was corruption in the Senate , but what could they really do about it?

 

I just believed that in the context of what Anakin was speaking, is what Obi-Wan meant by absolutes. Sort of like him saying that only a sith would make THOSE types of threats and statements like Anakin's 'enemy' line.

 

They were fairly open minded if they allowed Anakin to have a relationship while sitting on the Jedi Council. Also the Sith plans were certainly "under their nose" but also well hidden.

 

But isn't Obi-Wan making an absolute comment, himself? And hasn't the Jedi been just as absolute as the Sith in their approach to the Force?

 

Seems like the line was meant to be more contextually bound than it was.

Context: Anakin tells Obi-Wan that if people are not allied with him, they are enemies that should be destroyed.

Seems like this was the intended line: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes when dealing with other people"

 

If taken literally, yes. But that doesn't deny the fact that the Sith only deals in absolutes.

No...?

 

Purely for dramatic effect this line was uttered. It is probably the most quotable line from all the prequels that even the average person who isn't all that into Star Wars could remember. I don't think anything about this statement has to do with story and what is true and not true and contradictory and whatnot. Just skilled writers and marketers who thought of a one liner to make that final showdown more memorable, and it worked.

 

If Lucas intended the line to be an example of how some of the tenets of the post-modern manifesto have the unfortunate tendency toward self-pwnage, then he surely succeeded.

 

They could have stopped being tools of the Republic before it was too late.

 

Agreed. I was about to say that most fans that I've seen in these forums genuinely like this line.

As for the OPs original statement; he's basically just wiping his hands of his former padawan here. He tries to talk and reason with Anakin, and guilt him, try to make him see the error of his ways up until this line. When he says "only a Sith deals in absolutes" he's realizing that Yoda was right, his brother and his friend are lost to the darkside. He's saying "so be it" basically, and entering into fight mode.

 

I see it as further confirmation the Jedi had become arrogant and out of touch. It's a theme running through all the movies. Yes the Sith deal in absolutes, but so do the Jedi. They have both in some way lost their connection to the living force.

 

You mean they could have stopped serving the Republic? And do what? Under what jurisdiction?

Never seen such "theme".

 

"Blind are we, if the development of this clone army we could not foresee."
"I think it's time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

"His abilities have made him, well, arrogant."
"A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones."

Both of those are from one movie though.

 

You also have the Council's disbelief the Sith could have returned in TPM. Then refusing to train a highly force sensitive individual when clearly there are dark side users back in the fold, because the Jedi Code forbids it. Rigid and stale.

Yoda is arrogant in Sith. Windu is ready to break the Jedi code because it suits him. Even in the OT Obi Wan and Yoda are shown to be wrong and aggressive.

 

That said, there's at least one Lucas quote which is strongly suggestive of "Luke redeeming Vader" actually being Yoda & Ben's plan all along:

"The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film."
--George Lucas
The Annotated Screenplays (Laurent Bouzerou), 1997

 

And I posted those same quotes on another thread. The fact that some Jedi have become arrogant doesn't make it a theme (precisely because it applies just to some of them). Nor does their diminished ability of foresight, which is a product of the Sith.

"The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend."

It's not a Jedi problem or fault. It's the Sith that are causing the problem.

 

Dooku tells the truth when he thinks it will serve his purposes. However, the "the Jedi have become darker - and thus lost foresight" perspective also has it's adherents.

 

Couldn't redeem simply mean doing what his father failed at? Killing the Sith?

I see much evidence Obi Wan and Yoda have become more wise and in tune with the force, but I don't think they saw Luke turning his father back to the light. Apparently that has never happened before, so understandable.

 

"He's more machine now than man; twisted and evil." - Ben Kenobi.

As far as he was concerned, Anakin/Vader was well past redemption. He was a sick, demented dog that had to be put down at all cost. He had been waiting for Luke to come of age so the latter could end the Sith reign. It happened, yes, but not in the way Ben was expecting.

 

I think this is possible. The key is that Obi Wan says Luke must face Vader alone and he cannot interfere. He can't just come out and tell him what to think or what to do. When he's implying Luke should kill Vader, he's probably using reverse psychology because he knows what Luke feels and wants to bring it out. Sneaky bastard. Dave Filoni confirms Lucas told him some of this in the behind the scenes of the Yoda arc. At least the part where they can not just come out and tell Luke what to do because he has to decide for himself or it will not be real love and forgiveness. They are essentially putting Luke through a trial where he has to make the right decision all on his own, without their guidance. The audience is simultaneously put through the same trial, as we are left in the dark as to what Yoda and Obi-Wan are actually thinking. The prequels actually shed a lot of light on this by showing Yoda and Obi-Wan failing the same trials, and Qui-Gon's contrasting nature. Qui Gon's immortality is a vindication of his philosophy, which opposed that of Yoda and Obi-Wan's prequel philosophies. That Padme says "there is still good in him" to Obi-Wan is another key. There's no way he was like "Nah, you're completely wrong." It was her dying words.

 

Sure, but the fact is that it was the Sith that blinded and destroyed them, not the Jedi themselves.

It's all the same philosophy.

 

I think it shows that Obi-Wan's path was wrong. He did things the old Jedi way in RotS: go straight at the Sith and duke it out. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" shows that Obi-Wan officially thinks Anakin is a lost cause, while also showing that the old Jedi way is a lost cause as well. The PT Jedi have absolutes they follow, so do the Sith. Obi-Wan doesn't see this, hence the absolutist statement about Sith only being absolutist. Shows Obi-Wan's making a bad decision. I wish I could believe he was trying to say that only the Sith think people are either allies or enemies, but this is the same guy who told complained about Anakin losing his lightsaber and yet lost his just as much. He's so bogged down trying to be the proper Jedi teacher and making Anakin the proper Jedi padawan that he doesn't see there are better choices out there. Qui-Gon had a spontaneity where he could adjust as the situation called for it. I think of it as he was more interested in listening to the will of the Force than following the Jedi Code. Obi-Wan's confrontation with Anakin was just him lecturing Anakin with more Jedi rules. He never talked to him like Padme did right before: as a person. The only time he did was when it was too late: when he thought Anakin was dying.

I'd like to think Yoda and Obi-Wan thought Luke could redeem his father, but it just doesn't feel like they were. It felt like they were using Luke like they did their lightsabers in RotS (albeit trying to bring peace to the galaxy): the Sith must be defeated; we failed, so he has to do it, and if he dies, there's Leia as the backup.

 

The movie is called REVENGE OF THE SITH.

Who is actually taking revenge on who in this picture?

 

Go on Reddit and read the daily prequel bashing comments. This line is a favorite go-to for people that hate the PT.

A lot of you are saying that this line is intentionally supposed to show how the Jedi are actually flawed, which I think is fair reasoning, but if you go to something like reddit, again, you're just going to be downvoted by people telling you that George Lucas didn't actually mean this because he's a bad writer. Then they go on about the Anakin sand quote, etc. to justify their claim. That place is a hellhole sometimes.

I also thought I would be getting alerts for all the replies in this thread so I was surprised to see it's at 2 pages. I'm new here, oops.