PT "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Is there any good defense of this line or is it actually bad?

"Obi-Wan thought Anakin was a lost cause" and "lectured him"

good grief....Anakin joined Sidious, attacked the Jedi temple and killed younglings....

 

Even if Yoda and Obi-Wan thought Vader was irredeemable (and they probably did, with good reason), I think it's pretty clear that they were thrilled at how things turned out.

When you see them show up together as Force Ghosts on Endor, what you don't see is Ben and Yoda extremely bitter and angry over Luke not killing Vader. You don't hear Ben scream "YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DESTROY VADER" in a fit.

What you do see is them show up in support of Luke, standing by their old friend's side.

 

Certainly Ben was. In Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi - that's what prompts him to make that offer of "How to become Force Ghost" to Anakin.


Had Obi-Wan's spirit not witnessed Vader's action, he never would have believed it. Vader, the same monster that Obi-Wan had left to die on Mustafar, had sacrificed himself to save his son. And suddenly Obi-Wan realized where he had failed. For unlike Luke, Obi-Wan had not only believed that Anakin was consumed by the dark side, but had actually refused to believe that any goodness remained within Vader. And by refusing to allow that possibility, Obi-Wan had condemned not only his former friend but his own capacity for hope.
Fortunately, Luke's unwavering faith in his father's innate goodness had proved to be a stronger force than the power of the dark side.
Obi-Wan recalled what Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit had told him so long ago, when he said that Obi-Wan was not ready, and that he failed to understand. For so many years, Obi-Wan had thought Qui-Gon meant that he wasn't ready to comprehend details about Anakin's conversion to the dark side. But now, he finally understood his Master's words.
I wasn't ready to forgive Anakin. And he won't be entirely free unless I do.
Unfortunately, just as Obi-Wan realised that Anakin Skywalker lived, he also knew that Anakin would not live much longer. As Luke hauled his dying father toward a shuttle, Obi-Wan's spirit shifted his own psyche to another realm. And he waited.

After Anakin died in his son's arms, Obi-Wan called out into the void, "Anakin."
A moment later, Obi-Wan heard a familiar voice return from the darkness. "Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very—"
"Anakin, listen carefully," Obi-Wan interrupted. "You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force. If you choose this path to immortality, you must listen now, before your consciousness fades."
Obi-Wan sensed confusion and remorse in Anakin's psyche, then Anakin answered, "But Master ... why me?"
"Because you ended the horror, Anakin," Obi-Wan said. "Because you fulfilled the prophesy. Because you were ... and are ... The Chosen One."
But Obi-Wan knew in his heart that those were not the only reasons. He added, "Because I was wrong about you. And because I am your friend."

 

Hey Iron....

Good quote there, however...

Lucas doesn't explain Obi Wan's state of mind in how Luke would do this. It can be argued that Obi Wan was expecting Luke to do what his father couldn't, destroying the Sith. Thus through Luke's actions, he has redeemed his Father (The Skywalker name). However, Luke had other ideas and tried to appeal to Vader to redeem himself which he (Anakin) did. In the end it was not Luke's decision to redeem Anakin Skywalker, it was Anakin's.

Also a neat little insight from one of the authors into the new book coming out: Ultimate Star Wars:

My favorite features in Ultimate Star Wars are the “Key Events” spreads sprinkled throughout the book. These pages offer a chance to dig a little deeper into George Lucas’ recurring themes and explain the significance of pivotal events (such as the factors in Anakin’s embrace of the dark side, and Luke’s deviation from Yoda’s teaching in order to save his father), all in the context of the entire film saga. I always enjoy this sort of story introspection, which we don’t often find in licensed Star Wars books.

Edit: SOrry forgot to include the linkhttp://www.starwars.com/news/ultimate-star-wars-research-writing-and-revelations

 

I never minded the line. It doesn't bother me at all.

I recognized the irony the first time I heard it (I'm sure everyone did), but it was such a pivotal moment of the saga that I didn't really have time to dwell on it. I don't remember it getting a reaction out of me of any kind. I was too busy groaning and even laughing at all the truly terrible dialogue and acting surrounding it. The scene is a total failure, but not because of this one line.

 

I agree with what some others have said here, there is a difference between "dealing in absolutes" which means that everything they do is an absolute, and those that might have a small set of absolute beliefs (like we all do) but let others live their lives as they want and don't try to conform them to their absolutes.

 

It's definitely an intentionally ironic line. One of the underlying themes of the prequels (particularly Episode II, but all of them to an extent) is arrogance (particularly of the Jedi) and "truths" that are based on assumption but not on verified fact.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is a simple line in context. It means "because you, Anakin, just stated an absolute, you have proven that you are a Sith and therefore I am now justified in killing you." It's a point of view that Obi-Wan has because of his indoctrination as a Jedi. That Obi-Wan himself is spouting out an absolute as a way to justify his violent actions seems to be totally lost on him - but if we as the audience pick up on the irony then it isn't lost on us. It doesn't make Obi-Wan a Sith, but it further cements the point that the Jedi are blind, arrogant, and ultimately pawns.

 

How is destroying the Sith to be blind and arrogant?

 

Isn't do or do not there is no try an absolute?

Ive said before it shows the hypocrisy of the Jedi which helped Sidious bring about their downfall.

 

that line explains that conservatives are sith

 

There's nothing wrong with absolute statements or absolute morals, IMO. We all probably have them. Sexual abuse of children? Always wrong. There are no circumstances that justify it or make it okay. Killing someone? There are situations where I think it would be more immoral NOT to kill. So not the same thing at all.

But DEALING with people in an absolute manner is another thing entirely.

Essentially, Anakin is giving the galaxy an ultimatum: either join me or I'll kill you. And THAT is what Obi-Wan objects to. Believing something in an absolute way in no way compares to this.

I know some people see it as hypocrisy on Obi-Wan's part and while I can see why they think that, I don't personally subscribe to that.

I don't think the statement itself is hypocritical. But something like Mace Windu's attempted assassination of Palpatine (where the Sith are to be destroyed with much the same mentality the Sith have towards the Jedi) most definitely IS, in my opinion.

You can see it as a reference to George Bush's "You're either with us or with the terrorists" but I think it's MUCH more likely to be a reference to Jesus:

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." Matthew 12:30

Anakin is a messianic figure. Although he's very much of the Dark Messiah mold.

 

I am strongly leaning towards that it is just bad. I can't see how it makes much of any sense at all. What does "absolutes" mean in this case, anyway? Black and white thinking? Or something else?
Do Jedi not have their own absolutes? Is that even necessarily wrong?

Good post, overall.
I would argue that Mace Windu didn't go with killing Palpatine as his first option, though. He started by going for arrest. Even after Palpatine had ruthlessly cut down his companions, he tried to go for arrest, again. Only when it became painfully clear that Palpatine would never come quietly did Mace decide to kill him (or attempt to). That is a pretty significant difference from the mentality Sith have towards Jedi, in my opinion.
If Mace were like a Sith he would attempt to stab Palpatine when he thought Palpatine didn't know he knew Palpatine was a Sith, or something of the sort. Sure, such an opportunity might not have presented itself. Palpatine knew Anakin was about to tell the Jedi that he was a Sith. He set much of that up, more or less, so he would know Mace knew he was a Sith at that point. Still, my point stands. Mace would at least look for some kind of opportunity to attack Palpatine when Palpatine wasn't ready (even if one never presented itself), if his mentality were very similar to a Sith one. That is pretty far from what he actually does.
The Sith seem to try to get any Jedi (they aren't attempting to turn, and maybe who is not serving a temporary purpose as a useful pawn in the Sith's plan) killed more or less from the start.
So I think there is sufficient difference in mentality here to make Mace not a hypocrite. Otherwise you hold him to an unreasonable standard under which pretty much everyone would fail to avoid being a hypocrite.

But aside from that, I agree with your points, mostly.

 

I think the over-analyzation of this line is kind of ludicrous. It would be like going to see a movie where the main character says, "I just ate a bad meal" and then going on a fan forum of said film to figure out where he got the meal from and what exactly it was, and which viral strain he actually picked up and what it all means to the rest of the film.

In reality all it is, is Obi-Wan confirming to himself that Anakin has fallen off the deep end and gone cray-cray. Don't get too mesmerized by how he managed to feed himself on the way to Mustafar and whether the food was cooked right.

 

This was interesting:

A lesson in Absolutes

After watching Episode III for what seems the 100th time I've run across a little problem. Right before the Obi-Wan/Anakin fight, Obi-Wan says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." My problem: Isn't one of the most popular Star Wars quotes from Yoda, " Do or do not. There is no try," an absolute? Am I the only one who noticed this?

- Jon Henderson, via Internet

You're definitely not; in fact, this is one of the most intensely dissected lines in Episode III, from fans wondering about its inherent contradiction to bloggers who thing they're sniffing out a political statement in those words. The contradiction is no mistake; think of what Palpatine was saying to Anakin earlier. He was describing the Jedi as narrow minded and dogmatic, and there's plenty of evidence in the previous Episodes to support his statements. The Jedi Code is often portrayed as prohibitive, and is filled with absolute rules that can't be broken.

When Anakin proclaims all who oppose him as his enemy, he's not being very Jedi-like. That is a declaration worthy of a Sith, and Obi-Wan, himself outraged at what has become of his former pupil, calls him out on it. But the fact that Obi-Wan does so in a manner that hints at Jedi hypocrisy illustrated that he doesn't understand - or cannot understand - what has befallen Anakin. This also illustrates a common source of confusion in fiction: Characters aren't infallible and may in fact be unreliable. Just because a character says something doesn't make it true.

- Pablo Hildago, Star Wars Insider 88(2006)

 

I always thought people made a mountain out of nothing with this line.

^Agreed with this. I think nothing more need be said about it.

 

This is one of the underlying "problems" that obviously a segment of fans can't seem to ever get over. The characters of Star Wars simply are not perfect, infallible or always reliable. Though for many that perception is that the OT characters like Luke, Leia and Han are in some way even though there really are not. The PT characters in particular Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan certainly are not. Obi-Wan is reliable but in a way that really is predictable and for the most part makes him the best of the Jedi.

In ROTS while Anakin kills a helpless man that he should not in Dooku even though he is a Sith (but was once a Jedi) and Mace commits himself to kill a helpless man which since he (Sidious) is both totally evil and a Sith is understandable but also is wrong from the Jedi point of view (Anakin does the right thing in stopping him. He doesn't realize that the not-so-helpless-afterall Sidious will then destroy Mace. Obi-Wan is the only one who decides not to kill the helpless man in Vader (who was once Anakin).

That he didn't eventually ended up saving everything because if he killed Vader then Luke could not have inspired Anakin to return to destroy Sidious.

 

Check this out guys:

 

To quote team four star-

"It's called a hyperbole big guy."

Don't forget to every rule there's an exception. He's saying the sith tend to be stubborn while the jedi are open minded. Sith go in head strong and never accept being wrong. They aren't pen minded. I like how it was a succinct metaphor and not spoon fed to the audience.

 

The Jedi were also tainted by the Dark Side for the past 1,000 and more so during the last decades of the Republic.

 

Reading this thread and seeing how it's used as a way to crap on the Jedi once again...

 

Check the previous comments on this thread.

 

That's a very interesting statement from George Lucas, but apparently not at all compatible how he portrayed Kenob's intentions in ROJ (and the original, extended dialogue):

LUKE I can't kill my own father.
BEN Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
...

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of his sister.
LUKE But you can't let her get involved now, Ben. Vader will destroy her.
BEN She hasn't been trained in the ways of the Jedi the way you have, Luke... but the Force is strong with her, as it is with all of your family. There is no avoiding the battle. You must face and destroy Vader!

No, I don't see that as an absolute but mostly as a general reminder that you have to finish the things you started, i.e. don't start something and then "try" to finish it but start something and DO finish it.

YODA (sighs)
Will he finished what he begins?

YODA Luke! You must complete the
training.

And let's not forget the context of the scene. Luke tells Yoda he'll "try" to lift the X-Wing. Yoda is encouraging him to do better than that, i.e. be determined to finish the job you started.

It's a shame to adit, but that's a lesson I should have paid more attention to in my own life.

 

Perhaps the line was intended to be ironic. After all, the statement that only the Sith deal in absolutes is in and of itself an absolute.

 

I just think its a badly written thought out line.... as others have said, the line itself is an absolute.... and Yoda deals in absolutes all the time.... and he's suppose to be the best Jedi... so.....


(No Harrison No Han)

 

"Do or do not" isn't quite an absolute. A Force user who has a strong enough connection can lift up something like an X-Wing. There is no excuse that they cannot. They either believe that they can, or they believe that they cannot. "There is no try" is an admission of failure before it could be accomplished.