"Only a Sith Deals in Absolutes"

I've always thought the "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" statement was a bit strange. It contradicts the entire Star Wars Saga. And it proves that Palpatine's "Good is a point of view" belief is correct.

However, in Star Wars, there is an absolute Good. There is an absolute Evil. Lucas himself has said the Sith Lords think they are the good guys, and they believe they are bringing peace to the galaxy...... yet, they are not. They are truly evil.

Star Wars was so popular simply because of its refreshing "Good versus Evil" storyline. There are no technicalities about it. Alec Guinness wanted to play the part of Obi-Wan Kenobi because he loved the idea of portraying a wise wizard in a story in which good and evil were so clearly defined.

Personally, I feel the "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" statement is a bit awkward in relation to Star Wars.

Not to mention, the statement seems to be an absolute declaration in and of itself.

 

Sith Lords only deal in absolutes.

You're misreading it.

 

I agree with Ghost. Don't put too much thought into things.

 

Life is never black and white; there is always a spectrum. The beauty of life is in the little, intangible aspects. Sith fail to realize that.

 

Plus, there's the whole idea of the Jedi downfall being the result of their inability to modernize and adapt. The novel of ROS goes into more depth on the subject, but Qui-Gon, as more of a grey Jedi, had the right idea and was the one to eventually guide Yoda and Obi-Wan to immortality. Qui-Gon was more adept at listening to the "living Force," and didn't have as dogmatic a view as someone like Mace, who was really closer to the Dark Side than Qui-Gon ever was as a Grey Side Force user.

 

1) In Obi-Wan's own words he too is a Sith for failing to try and help Anakin see the wrong in his actions. Not turn him back, just simply attempted. A bit of a flawed line, just trying to point this out.

2) The line is a very direct reflection on the current 'regime' that Lucas considers our government to be. Do I agree with it? No. Do I resent it? The man is entitled to his opinion. Let's leave it at that.

 

Palpitine also said something ( i don't remember the exact words) about good being a point of view.

 

"Do, or do not, there is no try."
- Yoda

 

It's meant to demonstrate how blind the Jedi themselves are.

When Obi Wan talks about Vader in the OT, he talks in a manner that makes clear that he thinks Anakin is dead. Anakin is now evil - and that's all there is to it. An absolute. Even Yoda confirms this outlook: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny". But Luke sees a world of greys and is convinced that Anakin can actually be redeemed and brought back.

 

But all of this gets a bit out of control when you start using the powers of the Light and Dark sides.

I don't care what anyone says. I will hold Yoda's lectures above any other character's beliefs. Yoda knew what he was talking about. He lived for 900 years. He saw many Jedi fall to the Dark Side. He knew what would happen if you gave into your emotions.

The EU has been turning Luke into a liberal Master that believes it is the intentions of the person that matters. As long they use aggression (which is a Dark Side ability), etc. in their fighting style with good intentions, it is accepted. Well, look at what happened to Anakin. He had good intentions. He wanted to save Padme. What happened to him? As soon as he opened up to the Dark Side, it instantly pulled him in.

The Jedi/Force concepts are based on Buddhism. Buddhism teaches that if you annihilate all desires and detach yourself from all worldly matters, you will achieve Nirvana (enlightenment). The equivalent to this with the Jedi is retaining your identity in th Force. They achieve this by dying in a state of absolute compassion, pure unconditional love. In this way, they are at peace with the universe.

The Dark Side is all about using your emotions. The Light Side is all about rising above the normal human level. You cannot mix them together.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."
~ Yoda

 

If we're picking favorites I will hold Kreia's lectures above any other character's beliefs.

So certain are you? The Sith have supposedly been extinct for a millinium, which would mean that Yoda would have been born a century(give or take a few decades) after Darth Bane instigated the rule of two and dissapeared. Even then he would have only been a Padawan in the temple before he would have been exposed to the real world. Yoda may very well have known and spoken with many of the old masters who themselves probably faced and survived the Sith onslaught, but I doubt he has ever faced a Sith himself prior to the events of the PT.
Moreover we have no Idea how many Jedi in his lifetime he may have seen turn to the darkside, and considering the state of the Golden age it was probably an almost insignificant number. Finally, I would assume considering how Yoda acts that he was at one time a youngling in the Temple, which would mean he was raised in the temple just like all the others, how can we be sure he actually knows what it's like to give into your emotions.

Besides Kotor I don't put much thought into the EU, I tried getting into it a few years ago but I got pretty bored with it. Although I think Luke's choice to train a plethora of different students at the same time was foolhardy, I did agree with his principle that training the student's was more about showing them a path and letting them walk it and learn on their own with subtle pushes in the right direction from him occasionally.
Anakin's intentions were not good, despite what he had convinced himself of. He might have done what he did to save Padme, but at the same time he did so because he himself could not live without her. Ask yourself, would she have ever considered alowing him to do what he did if it would have allowed her to live? No. It wasn't love that motivated Anakin, it was selfishiness and greed. How do you tell the difference? You feel it out, because there is no absolute right way.

Many of the Jedi in the order are not human, and if the idea is to rise above such a level why is the greatest power the ability to retain your identity and what makes them who they are. They aren't mixed, the Darkside and the Lightside are both parts of a whole.
Also, you've talked about the concept of retaining your identity and how it relates to buddism. I am not a buddist, but I think the concept is to essentially become one with everything, to let go of you concious self. Isn't this supposedly what already happens to everyone when they die in Star Wars, they become part of the force? Wouldn't the idea of retaing your earthly identitiy be in direct contrast of buddism?

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherance to a single idea."
-Kreia

Edit: sorry for the edits, spelling errors.

 

I couldn't agree more. What Anakin does to save someone he loves causes the biggest catastrophe the galaxy has seen in thousand's of years.

He's not really trying to save her, it's himself.


He wants Padme's love in AOTC, he wants her to love him because he feels entitled to her because of his feelings.


Whatever makes Anakin happy I guess.

 

Okay, Anakin was a bad example.

However, I still agree with Yoda's lectures.

 

All_Powerful_Jedi posted in a previous topic:

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." is an absolute statement in and of itself.

This line is probably going to be the most misinterpreted line of the movie. it's not "only a Sith SPEAKS in absolutes" it's "only a Sith DEALS in absolutes."

It's perfectly fine to speak in absolutes. Obi-Wan is a Jedi, is he not? Yoda is green, is he not?

Now, DEALING in absolutes is another story. A Jedi will always go with the flow. He'll make compromises and acknowledge the other point of view. A Sith, however, will have it only one way: his way. If a Sith does not get his way, you will be destroyed. That's what Obi-Wan means.

Obi-Wan follows this line up by saying "I will do what I must." Not, "Then, I will kill you, Anakin." because Obi-Wan is a Jedi, and he takes things as they go. He is on a mission to destroy the Sith, but he's willing to deal with Anakin in any way he can at this point. It's the Sith, who deal in absolutes, that give Obi-Wan no other choice but death.

 

In the novel, Obi-Wan says, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. The truth is never black and white."

Also, I'd like to bring this up:

OBI-WAN: I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you.

ANAKIN: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over.

OBI-WAN: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!

ANAKIN: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!

OBI-WAN: Well, then you are lost!


I have to be honest here. Obi-Wan is contradicting himself.

 

Well, he's right, isn't he?

Obi-Wan did fail.

Chancellor Palpatine is evil.

Anakin is lost.

 

Obi-Wan is "dealing in absolutes".

 

The statemen itself is an absolute

"Only Sith deal in absolutes"

It should be "Sith tend to deal in absolutes."

Also, I would like to point out to one poster that there are dark jedi beyond the Sith.

 

Obi-Wan is "dealing in absolutes".

Actually, Obi-Wan's speaking in absolutes.

Like I quoted from All_Powerful_Jedi (if you're out there buddy, you can back me up on this one), there's a difference between speaking in absolutes and dealing in absolutes.

Now I'll admit, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." is an absolute statement, so it seems as though Obi-Wan is contradicting himself. However, like APJ said, there's nothing wrong with speaking in absolutes. Palpatine is evil. Anakin does have a scar on his face. The sky is blue.

What's being stressed in this scene is Anakin's statement prior.

Anakin: "If you are not with me, then you are my enemy."
Obi-Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Anakin is dealing in absolutes here because there is no middle ground for him. He refuses to accept the possibility that he might be wrong and that Obi-Wan might be right. Either Obi-Wan joins his side or he is an enemy to be killed.

If Obi-Wan were to deal in absolutes, he would have said "Then I will kill/destroy you." But he doesn't. He says "I will do what I must." He will go with the flow, do what is necessary for the moment, and follow the will of the Force, because --in the end-- that is all he can ever really hope to accomplish.

 

Couldn't agree more. That line was idiotic, had far more to do with Lucas wanting to make a political statement about Bush, and doing it in an utterly hamhanded way.

When it came out in the 70s, Star Wars was the first movie to really have an archetypical good vs. bad storyline, which it stuck to throughout the OT. Lucas seems to have forgotten this in favor of making an idiotic slam on Bush.

 

I don't want Lucas to be one of those guys who bash and complain about everything the government does.........

 

Couldn't agree more. That line was idiotic, had far more to do with Lucas wanting to make a political statement about Bush, and doing it in an utterly hamhanded way.

Do you have any proof whatsoever of those accusations. I know full well that Lucas has voiced his opinions and explained his worries of the bush administration but unless you can offer something more this is purly speculative.

When it came out in the 70s, Star Wars was the first movie to really have an archetypical good vs. bad storyline, which it stuck to throughout the OT. Lucas seems to have forgotten this in favor of making an idiotic slam on Bush.

In order to make Anakin's turn even remotely plausible Lucas HAD to make the universe a little more grey than it was. Moreover the idea of challenging the moral simplicity of the Star Wars universe is a brilliant concept IMO(hence my favorite character of all time being Kreia). It's no secret that Lucas based the concept of the Jedi on the Samurai of Feudal Japan as well as the Knights of Medieval Europe, and when you look at the surface and the idea of both of them you think "wow, warriors with a code of honor who seek out and fight evil, finding adventure and righting wrongs, it must have been amazing to be one of them!", but when you look at the true historical exploits of both of these groups you come to realize that there is both a real version of them and an idealized version.
In the OT, the Legends of the Jedi order have begun and Luke hear's of them and develops an idealized and simplier viewpoint of them, but when we look back at them we come to realize that in many ways they are flawed in their principles and their ideas. Like the Samurai, they were far to attached to the traditions and guidlines of their caste to change with the world around them, culminating eventually in their destruction because they refused to grow and unlearn what they had learned. We grew up with the idealized version of the Jedi, but unlike our children(who will have the benefit of watching it 1-6), we've had a hard time coming to terms with the truth behind the legend.


Episodes 4 and 5 were about Luke Skywalker, who was a young and idealistic farm boy with preconcieved notions of the world. In his eyes, there was the opressive Empire, and there was the Rebellion. It was all laid out plain and simple...right up until the point when he discovers that Vader is his father, and that he has been lied too by his closest mentors.

Then in Episode 6, we get this,
"Many of the truths we cling too depend greatly on our point of view."
-Obi-wan

In ROTJ Luke has already lost his innocence and he is no longer that same idealistic farm boy on Tatooine. He is a war veteran, the universe is no longer crystal clear to him, and he has begun to doubt the absolute evil of the man he now knows to be his father.

Episodes 4 and 5 were Black and white by design because they were viewed through the eyes of someone who viewed the world in Black and White, but as the series evolved Luke came to the understanding that in fact things were not as simple as they appeared to be.

 

What I'm most worried about is the idea that the moderate use of Dark Side abilities can be justified. I certainly hope this isn't want it comes down to......

 

As I have already explained, I believe the seperation of Light and Dark to be one of the larger fallacies of both the Jedi and the Sith. Make no mistake, regardless of what I might say of the Jedi the Sith are still far worse, but I believe the dichotomy of Light and Dark to be a by product of the sentients whom use the force rather than the nature of the force itself. The force is simply the force.

 

KOTOR II SPOILERS




I've recently learned that Kreia was a Sith Lord named Darth Traya.

Why do you honor a Sith's view of the Force above a wise old Jedi's teachings?
Not to mention, she wanted to "kill" the Force.

Also, are you suggesting that Yoda's view of the Force was still "wrong" throughout ESB and ROTJ?