O.C, CA Orange County Saber Academy [formerly The Lightsaber Training Class]

Discussion in 'Pacific Regional Discussion' started by Zhi-don, Aug 9, 2006.

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  1. Zhi-don Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 2
    Alex:

    Now that I have had a chance to spar with you and watch you teach your students, I can make the following observations:

    1. You are an experienced swordsman in the classical sense.

    2. You train as if for real combat, not the mock combat that we use.

    3. You teach head attacks and use them yourself if not on purpose, then by reflex.

    4. Mistakes will happen, but as a 'trained' swordsman, you above all people should have enough control not to use head attacks and also not to use too much power. A master swordsman would never return force for force. That shows a lack of control and temperment.

    5. You ask for respect, but do not give it to others. An example would be taking someones weapon without asking first. Not using someones correct name. Even in jest, it shows a lack of respect.


    My conclusion:

    You will use what you have been trained to use and so will your students. I have warned you against head attacks and in teaching your[our] students this even in practice. The body remembers even if the concious mind does not. Your students will also use this if they are trained enough in it. That is why I asked you not to use the overhead attack mode when training. What you do out of class and that means not when we are holding class, is not my business. The safety of myself, the other instuctors and our students is. If you want to train this way, do it somewhere else.

    Master Smudge concurs with the above.
  2. Enforcer_Draconus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2004
    star 3
    ok sounds good ive got to get some steel time in before you leave forsure!
  3. Zhi-don Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 2
    HEY, ERIK!!!

    So how's come you never offered to do 'live steel' with me????
    HUH???? Ain't I good enough??? Don't I got skills??? Ain't I your friend???

    :(
  4. S_C_A-lexander Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2005
    star 1
    Don, you have not trained to hit heads, but you have admitted to headshots during our last tournament. The argument of the body remembering to go for head isn't really an argument, because the body will instinctive do this anyways. Pick up any person (don't do this personally, I've done it on my own and have accepted the risks) off the street, give them a stick and ask them to defend themselves against your stick. I guarantee you that they will perform 2 hits with no training what so ever; thrusting and head shot. I done this enough times (with strangers who come up to me for a tutorial) to see that instinctively going for head and thrusting is not trained but instinctive, granted that they do it poorly. Its what people will go for.

    And Don in the heat of battle, as with countless others who've played within our boundaries, people have hit heads with no training in head shots what so ever. If they were truly trained (I'm serious about this) and intentionally went for the head without a helmet, person is going to fall down, and I don't care how flexible a shinai or El rod is. I've hammered this into every1 (and u Don) that you must follow thru with your hits. For some1 to follow thru with an intentional head shot (and no helmet), is absolutely disastrous. Once again we don't go for headshots and so far they've been accident, know that true follow thru of that illegal move is hospital.

    Rion, we have a rift. I don't need to defend myself to your personal opinions. We've only fought in tournament, games, and circle. I've trained with Smudge, Phil, Don, Adam, Aaron, Duey, Al, Rob, Duey, and others individually. You have always approached me with an anger, my training has always been to defend myself and the feelings I get is that I have to put you down instead of taking you down. Adam's has said the smartest thing to me one time, "Alex, shut the f--- up, lets just fight." And now I'm asking to you to personally train with me for a bit. Words have lost meaning, let us train together because this is the best way resolve our rift.

    Adam beat you in the tournament because he's faced many and any fighters, often greater. He has accepted the fact that he will get hurt, and doesn't dwell on loss the way I've seen you have.

    Face me in personal training combat. If you don't that's alright. You go tell every 1 what ever you want about me, and I won't stop you. I'll only object to bad ideas that pertain or directly revolve around and to OCSA, because I don't want people to read stuff, take it to heart and get hurt out there. (Like when some else (not you Rion) claimed and posted that they knew everything about shinai and fencing only to concede to me in a PM and not publicly, I make an effort to discredit bad ideas that will lead to hazards).
  5. Zhi-don Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 2
    The only thing I pointed out is that if you are as good as you say you are, and I agree that you are, then you should have better control than the rest of us.

    You have been trained to use head attacks, so you will, unless you have good control. I expect you to have better control than anyone else due to your training. You will make mistakes, they don't count.

    You have been trained in real combat, so you should have better control of your emotions. I expect you not to reply to excess force with excess force regardless of the situation.

    We haven't been trained to use head attacks, so we won't except by accident.

    Your students are being trained to use head attacks, that must cease at once. I will not tolerate it in class. I am backed by Erik at this point and as there are only 3 instructors, that settles it. [This is any training that includes an head attack in any fashion, even in practice, because that leads to using it in real mock combat situations]

    You WILL respect the instructors of this academy [Myself, Erik and Phil] during class at all times. What you do outside of class is your own business. You WILL post respectfully on this board at all times.

    You will have respect from us when you earn it by respecting us.

    We made you an assistant instructor because of your skill and for what you can teach us within the limits of this class, don't make us regret that decision.
  6. Enforcer_Draconus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2004
    star 3
    well said Don


    and i have not aproched you with anger i have called you on the crap you say that contradicts its self like saying you are this all powerful fighter and have this amazing control yet certain things keep poping up

    this is the last thing im going to say i wont ever train with you because to me you are a dangerous fighter and are not safe amd you are disrespectful to most people in the class therefore i wont train with you or accept any traning from you and thats all
  7. the_black_smudge Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2004
    star 3
  8. LordJedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2001
    star 4
    Well, this is nice to see for once. I guess it wasn't just me afterall :p

    Alex, I hope this statement wasn't about me

    since 1) I never claimed to know everything about shinai or fencing, I only talked about blade length and 2) I never conceded anything, to you or anyone else, privately or publicly. If that was about me, you deserve less respect than anyone else here since you not only seem to be a poor fighter, but you're also a liar.

    As for "working out differences", you seem to have a major battle complex going. Why everything must come down to a sword fight (shinai in this case) with you is beyond me. Real men settle their differences with words whenever possible and don't immediately resort to battle. You seem to do the opposite.

    EDIT: Alex, could you at least click the 4 PMs I've sent you so I don't have 4 PMs sitting unread until the end of time? You don't have to read them, just click on them so they're marked read.
  9. crazybirdman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah, even in cheesy movies they at least try to talk first. And in all the kung fu movies I've seen, the old teacher guy talks about control over power.
  10. Robeewankenobe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 29, 2004
    star 3
    This a gravity issue see that there is not positive out come at this point. o_O
    I like to suggest that the instructors and parties involve take this up on Wed nights or to PMs.
    In the best interest of the club's moral and all those kids with virgin ears.:D
    I also suggest that any member that does not go to this class on a regular bases; have enough respect to keep their own two cents to themselves or PM instructors.

  11. LordJedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2001
    star 4
    That's easier said than done Rob. Alex doesn't read PMs from me (I don't know about anybody else) and he's already said that he doesn't believe in speaking in "hushed breath" (ie sending PMs). I've already talked to one mod about this and they completely understand what I'm saying.

    You're right that it should be taken up on Wed nights or via PM, but it doesn't have to be taken up as a battle between the parties. Alex needs to take some constructive criticism like anybody else around here does. The fact is that 2 instructors and 1 student that are regular posters (and fighters) are all telling him he has a control issue but he doesn't want to hear it. Instead of taking it in stride and working on making himself a better fighter, he's tryihg to turn it around to make it look like it's the other peoples problem. If he thinks Rion is angry toward him, why not talk to Rion about it first and see why? Why is it that the first thing he always wants is a battle. "Come fight me and we'll settle this". It won't settle anything. It's not like it's even a fight to the death or anything. He even said that if I wanted to say anything, to just come and fight. Why? Why does it always have to end with a fight with him? My God he's acting like he's 12 and he's going to settle the argument after school with a fist fight.

    Last, I won't keep my opinion to myself when the problem so obviously lies with someone else (yes, Alex, I'm talking about you). Taking little jabs at me here and there and downright lying about actual events is going to get a response. PMing the instructors is the last thing I'll be doing. If I'm going to PM anyone, it's going to be a mod. Permbans suck but at least they keep problem users away.
  12. Robeewankenobe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 29, 2004
    star 3
    :) I had a great time tonight. Matt got me good....great job Matt! [face_beat up] Sorry for picking on you Liz.[:D] Smudge, I like your new steel shinai. The carbon fiber is very cool but sound threw me off but still very cool.
    Phil, I love your dog. I wish I could have one.
    I have to say that some of the teams today had great team work.
    [face_peace]
  13. the_black_smudge Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2004
    star 3
    Thanks Rob. Though for the record, the crossguard is aluminum. and the planks are sill the usual rattan. other than 2 scews there's no steel in it.
  14. Zhi-don Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 2
    Rob: You are correct, and as Alex is an assistant instructor, we will talk about any problems in PM's or in person.

    Issues resolved in last nights class:

    1. Training using head attacks, or moves used in practice that could be taken for head attacks WILL NOT be allowed in class. If you have a question about this consult with an instructor.

    2. The 3 strikes rule WILL be inforced. This is a safety issue, for the following reason.

    Attacks against the head area area and groin area are not allowed, nor is using too much power when striking at an opponent. This can result in a serious injury.

    Breaking this rule will result in the following:

    First strike - Warning
    Second strike - Removal from the session then in progress [Circle, Line, etc.]In line battles this will leave one team short for the remainder of the battle, even if more rounds are left.
    Third strike - Dismissal from ALL sessions for that night.

    This rule applies to EVERYONE! [yes, even the instructors]

    Rules will be inforced by the Marshal or Instructors if:

    They see an unsafe attack as listed above.
    Someone reports that this has happened to them. [This must be done immediately, not a hour later. Call a 'HOLD' and report it at once.]

    If a student [or instructor] is repeatedly seen to break this rule, they will be:

    1. WARNED to stop it.
    2. ASKED if they require further training or practice with an instructor.
    3. TOLD that they need further training or instruction.

    If none of the above solves this problem then they will be
    DISMISSED from class permanently or until they can show ALL instructors they have changed and the instructors agree that this person should be allowed to returned to class.

    3. Change in rules for Circle Battles:

    Unless otherwise announced by an instuctor, only Standard Shinai's will be used. [No rapiers, lightsabers, shortswords, etc]
    Note: The shinai's can be of any weight, as long as they are unmodified. [Use of tape for a custom look is allowed]

    4. All weapons will be inspected before use each night by an instructor.

    Pax Vobiscum
  15. S_C_A-lexander Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2005
    star 1
    Barry, you don't participate. Plus you always need to be right; I'm not going to get into it with you about which argument, because it is a constant struggle with words rather than tested theory. As I've said to Rion, call me a child all you want.

    I wasn't trying to redirect it (argument of power). One thing I was trying to imply is that I hold back a lot. Accident happen and I believe its hippo critical that my power was complained about by some who used power against me, even worse I haven't even had a true session with them and they already talked smack about me. Various members have fought on their own, why people come up to me is mystery for the ages. But I don't earn respect by my fears.

    I do take criticism, if I didn't. A lot of people in the group wouldn't respect or train with me what so ever. I've respected the instructors criticism, despite our conflict of belief, I understand. I never once said that I was grand master god like, I said my skill was exceptional by comparison, never "the master of god like control." I've made mistakes and have counted myself, did I not disqualify myself often, yes often I've been here long enough where the number is often by time not a prediction? Smudge and Don are right about knowing control, but EriK I never once said I was in the league of Omar. My abilities are if some1 comes at me smug and or I feel that I will be hurt intentionally than I must put them down. I'm here because the bubble is getting smaller, and many of you present a prime opportunity for me to learn about myself and hone my skills.

    Oddly one thing I've notice is that more than once a complaint of power was given when a person loses or gets tagged, and funny enough it wasn't me, and the complainer was one person.

    Well I couldn't make it clear enough that to go out onto that court is to accept that getting hurt is part of it. I expect and still expect is that all of you hold true to the Jedi, and particularly something that borrows from the martial arts, and that is self improvement. You don't improve by always winning. You don't improve by not fighting various and more skilled fighters. You don't improve by picking your opponents, you improve by being ready for anything. This expectation is held by me, and I give every1 the benefit of doubt. If that?s too much, well here's a board and my PM.


    I held out the olive branch and they turn it down. Now I have no question about who this one is, and that's my own personal opinion not reflection on who they are in totality, forgive me every1.

    And may the force be with us all.
  16. Zhi-don Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 2
    Allright.....I think everyone, including me has expressed there opinion.

    All of us have the right to agree to disagree. Let's move forward from here and be constructive.

    Let us each do what we can to return to the reason for this class:

    To learn to properly and safely use [and mock fight with] our Lightsabers. Our main object here is to have fun.
  17. Robeewankenobe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 29, 2004
    star 3
    Hey Don and Smudge.
    I think it would be great to note here for compliance of the rules.[face_idea]

    I've agree with them and will comply.
    Robert Estrada
    AKA Robeewankenobe.=D=
  18. the_black_smudge Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2004
    star 3
    and it is appreciated Rob, thank you.
  19. Zhi-don Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 2
    My thanks as well. Remember that the Sunday class in now on Saturdays for the present. Same Jedi time, Same Jedi place.
  20. JediJenee Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2005
    star 1
    I Jennifer Riley (Jen) also agree to follow all the rules of the class and thank you
    for continuing to make headshots illegal. I know it's hard sometimes and I have been hit accidentally
    in the head,as well as sometimes hitting others accidentally and when it happens everyone feels bad
    about it. But it's the fun we have that matters and for as long as my eyes will allow me to fight
    safely, I will be there.
  21. Zhi-don Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 2
    Thank you Jen, I would expect nothing less from my honorable Jedi Sister.
  22. Enforcer_Draconus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2004
    star 3
    i also always will and have held up to this standard and rules set and WILL observe and enforce them when i see something being violated we are to be safe fighters and not reckless in anyway
  23. Zhi-don Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 2
    Rion:

    It's the marshall and instructor's job to enforce these rules. Just report the violations to us and we will take care of it.

    I promise!
  24. Enforcer_Draconus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2004
    star 3
    thats what i meant you know that =P
  25. Aaron-Wan-Kenobi Temp CR Orange County, CA

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 3
    I generally avoid reading the saber threads due to the ridiculousness of which it deteriorates into. I made the mistake of reading this again. I wont make the same mistake again. All the arguing, which persists on these pages is STUPID! That means yelling stupid right? The fact that certain people, I don't want to say who because I don't want Alex and Barry to feel bad, cannot discuss without arguing is stupid. Just stop talking to each other. Ignore each other. Please! For the love of all that is good.
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