Clone Wars Order 66 on TCW

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by EHT, Jan 21, 2012.

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  1. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Because the clone troopers should be uniform, you know, like clones. They should not be like normal soldiers. Otherwise what's the point of having a clone army? So they can be like every other army? Yay, FUN.
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  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Seems that Star Wars tried to have it both ways.

    "Look at these clone troopers who were bred in this cloning factory on Kamino to blindly obey Palpatine when he orders them to betray the Jedi after serving them for years and isn't that awful?" --the prequels

    "Look at these clone troopers who all have their own unique personalities and can spout witty lines at each other--they're so individual, even though they're clones!" --TCW

    "Individualistic war paint" doesn't exactly mix with "cloned army programmed to be obedient" IMO.

    I'm not that invested in this but it does seem that the writers retconned the concept of a clone army in the prequels in order to allow themselves room to create more characters and action figures.
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  3. Darth Kickass Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 3, 2013
    star 2
    Sorry, but I feel that this was one of the overriding themes of the entire series. Just because they all shared a genetic template did not necessarily mean they were all identical. Even identical twins do not share the exact same personalities just because they have identical DNA. In my opinion, the show went out of its way to convey this. They had the clone in "Hidden Enemy" who felt the clones were being enslaved, the clones from Domino Squad all had different personalities in "Clone Cadets" and "Rookies", Cut Lawquane in "The Deserter", Rex's quote about them being men, not droids, in the Umbara arc. They weren't robots, they were people, and people's personalities are shaped by their experiences, not their programming. That being said, I do feel there is some form of "Manchurian Candidate" programming responsible for "Order 66", but that can be achieved through mass subliminal messaging during their training on Kamino.
  4. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Everything you said is absolutely true and it's all absolutely terrible, imo.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Dec 4, 2013
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    It did, but that was rather pointless. The idea behind the show was to show the events between AOTC and ROTS, not to take a moral stand against human cloning or the use of a clone army.

    We could see in AOTC that the clones were men and not droids, we didn't need that drilled into us with the show, especially to the point of eliminating any differences between a clone army and a volunteer army.

    I liked Rex and a couple of the other clones, but the show went way too far with the "Look! Personalities!" message IMO.
  6. Darth Kickass Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2013
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    You're right in that the show's creators may have taken it too far (your point about action figures is most likely correct) but I feel it was also setting the stage for things to come. The "Order 66" arc from the BC is where we could see the culmination of this. I also think some clones could end up defecting from the army as a result of Order 66 with some possibly joining the fledgling rebellion in "Rebels" as well. There could also be a point made about them intentionally showing how flawed the logic was in the assumption that a clone army would be nothing more than a cookie cutter army of Jango Fetts.
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  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I would personally find it pretty bad if several clones disobeyed Order 66. I think someone mentioned this in another thread...Palpatine the Republic did not pay the Kaminoans a ****load of credits for a "genetically programmed obedient army" in order to get a product so defective that many of them were not obedient. It would have made more sense financially to have a volunteer army once the war started; I'm sure Palpatine with his charisma could have recruited one. The entire point in paying the Kaminoans for their services was to have an army that would serve the Jedi but also would not hesitate to shoot them in the back if so ordered.

    Elaborating a little more...I remember how I reacted when I saw the Order 66 sequence in ROTS, particularly with Cody, who had been so friendly with Obi-Wan but upon receiving Order 66, his only reaction was annoyance that the order had come right after he had given Obi-Wan his lightsaber back. My thought was, how could he be so callous? But then...duh...he was programmed to obey orders from Palpatine, any order, no matter how horrible. And that was the entire point.. He was programmed not to question whether the order was right or wrong or how he felt about it, he was just supposed to do it, period.

    And that's supposed to bother us. The horror of that scene should not be diminished for the purpose of cool clone humor or action figure sales.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Dec 4, 2013
  8. Darth Kickass Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2013
    star 2
    Wouldn't Palpatine have had a hard time recruiting a volunteer army for a conflict that hadn't yet begun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Clone Wars didn't begin until the battle of Geonosis. Had the clone army not already been produced, the Jedi present would most likely have been slayed, along with Anakin, during this battle. The discovery of the secretly produced clone army is what led to the decision to allow the deployment of the Grand Army of the Republic. If Palpatine had gone around saying "Hey, you guys, I think we need to get an army together; you know, just in case" it might have aroused some suspicion.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The Republic knew of the Separatist threat and I believe the Republic already had a Navy. That's really beside the point though. My larger point was regarding the genetically programmed obedience and the effects of that, which we see in the ROTS Order 66 scene. That's what the Republic opened its coffers for, just as much as having a ready-made army.
  10. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    The "Separatist Crisis" had been brewing for ten years by AOTC. This is somewhat similar to the obvious build up for war in the 30s heading into WW2.

    The decision to create an army was being voted on before the clones were even discovered. It's why Padme was mad about leaving Coruscant, she wanted to be there when the Military Creation Act was voted on.

    As for Geonosis, if you remove the clone army, it's hard to know what would happen. Would Obi-Wan even go to Geonosis? There's a million ways it could turn out.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Dec 4, 2013
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  11. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    If the '30s are analogous with the years preceding AotC, does Palpatine represent Neville Chamberlain?

    "My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

    "I will not let this Republic, which has stood for a thousand years, be split in two. My negotiations will not fail."

    [IMG]

    Was Chamberlain a megalomaniac wishful-autocrat as well as wildly incompetent in his efforts to appease Hitler?
    Last edited by JackG, Dec 4, 2013
  12. Darth Kickass Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 3, 2013
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    My point is that Palpatine's master plan would not have worked without the creation of a secret army. A volunteer secret army is a bit of an oxymoron.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That's fine, and maybe I shouldn't have brought up the concept of the volunteer army at all because that wasn't my point. I was addressing the concept of genetically programmed obedience, which is unique to clones.
  14. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Tup: "Good soldiers follow orders..."

    In this case, like @QuangoFett once said, "The best soldiers follow orders they haven't been given yet."
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  15. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
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    I've mentioned before how I always found it interesting how Palpatine said "the time has come" to Cody before telling him to execute Order 66. It seems to hint at the possibility of some pre-existing knowledge on the part of the clones (at least the commanders) that this order would be coming sooner or later. That they were aware of its inevitability and that it was just a matter of time.
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  16. Padawan Fangirl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2013
    star 3
    They might have been prepared and trained for it as a "just-in-case" thing. Don't you have to be ready for anything in the army?

    Sent from my addictive smartphone using TapaTalk 2.
  17. EHT New Films Manager

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    Well, "just in case" was exactly what it was at an official level... it was one of a series of contingency orders. So yes, they'd have to be ready for those. But saying "the time has come" really sounds like a veiled way of saying "the thing that we all knew was coming sooner or later is now here." Not saying that it's definitely the case that the clones were complicit in the plan, but it seems to hint at that at some level.
  18. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Even before I knew about the official GAR Contingency Orders, I always assumed "The time has come..." was simply Palpatine allowing himself to revel in his own satisfaction with the way things had turned out, a decade of planning culminating in the moment he was finally able to issue the order that would see the Jedi destroyed. The same sort of gloating he'd done—or would later do—in RotJ.
  19. Darth Kickass Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2013
    star 2
    That's a really interesting idea and something I had never considered. The more I think about it however, the more I agree with you. Now I'm racking my brain about the "Order 66" scene from ROTS trying to remember if it only showed the commanders receiving the initial order from Sidious. Was that Commander Wolffe who receives the order and shoots down Plo Koon? If it's not I guess it's possible he doesn't survive TCW. Really interesting, thanks for the thought provoking comment! Maybe we'll find out more in the Bonus Content.
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  20. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    Rex could shape up to be an exception if done well. I think a 'defective' member of the 501st would be interesting to see because of how staunchly loyal they are, even by clone standards. TCW eluded to clones deserting the Clone War, either on purpose or on accident, and the difficulty they have denying their true nature or leaving their old life behind.

    These stories are definitely leading up to some Stormtrooper defecting from the Empire, but still having struggles in that decision or maybe finding it hard to leave entirely. I think it's only going to be one clone or a very minute amount, because how few and far between Clone Wars defectors are. I hope that Rebels retains some of the wonderful grey morality of the Clone Wars, despite the villains being out in the open.
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  21. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    It would be ironic if Rebels has clones among the rebels but not among the Stormtroopers.
    That reminds me of when I read somewhere that Tup might have overheard somebody saying, "Remember to order 66 pizzas for the party tonight."
    Here's what I want to know: If the clones can be manchurian candidated, how in the world were they "too individualistic" for the Rebels-era Empire?
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Dec 14, 2013
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  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The idea of clones being "too individualistic" is such an oxymoron that I get a vomit-inducing headache from trying to wrap my brain around it.

    Here's a thought, writers: let's not defy logic and retcon the movies because a few kids might get upset and drown their action figures in the toilet when Rex and Fives go bad, mmmmkay?
  23. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

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    [IMG]
    EU did it.

    :p
    Last edited by Todd the Jedi, Dec 14, 2013
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  24. moonjump05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2013
    star 1
    I don't mind clones deserting/ too individualistic /whatever, because out of millions of individuals there really should be outliers in any population. Even one that should be rather homogeneous overall.

    First post FTW!
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'd agree with you regarding a few clones out of thousands; that could be chalked up to a programming defect.

    But the majority of them being "individualistic" enough to ignore their programming could be considered a movie retcon.

    Differing personalities makes some sense, but they're "genetically modified to obey any order" for a reason.

    And welcome to the boards. :) Good first post, even though I don't entirely agree.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Dec 14, 2013
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