Discussion in 'Live Action, Clone Wars & Classics' started by eht13, Jan 21, 2012.
Did you see how much Karen Traviss was yelled at?
Ever heard of the People's Inquest?
Mistrust, if not hostility, towards the Jedi already existed, in some part due to their secrecy, and fear of their abilities in the Force, which your average Joe Factory Worker did not understand. Nor did your average Senator.
This attitude towards the Jedi is also mentioned in Shatterpoint, when Mace Windu (in disguise) runs across some kids who are in awe of Jango Fett and furious because "some Jedi" killed him.
As far as Karen Traviss, she may have gotten yelled at, but as TaradosGon said, fans get bent out of shape whenever something new happens in the Star Wars universe which conflicts with their own personal interpretation of it. And I think that among those who dislike the prequels, this was a factor--the Jedi ended up not being portrayed the way old Ben described them. They were dogmatic, inflexible, sat in a literal ivory tower away from the rest of the galaxy, and had the fatal flaw of being the GFFA equivalent of ostriches regarding what was going on around them.
And the only people who really seemed to care about the "ambush" against them, other than the Jedi themselves, were Padme and Bail Organa. That's telling.
You guys don't have to convince me, but I do think we'll see something of a mess in terms of feedback for the show if TCW's actually goes any farther than its already gone in villianizing the Jedi.
I agree that the general masses might not have a great view of the Jedi. That said if we take EU sources at face value there is an arguement to be made that in general the Jedi were well liked. People were honored to hand their children over to the Jedi to be trained. As well there were some 2000 senators with Bail and Padme as presented in the ROTS deleted scenes, the Delegation of 2000. We only get to see the main characters.
Then again the show has already portrayed the Clone Troopers largely as honorable, selfless heroes. With ROTS coming up in the timeline they, by and large, all turn killers slaughtering every Jedi from the ages of 2 to 102.
What source is that from? I've heard conflicting information on this; I've also read that while the Jedi requested parental permission to take younglings for training, the parents never felt they had the option of saying "no." I'd assume that the ones who felt the Jedi could give their children a better life--the position that Shmi was in--would feel honored, but not every parent would feel that way.
I also didn't think that "2000" was a literal number; I tried to look up the total number of Senators at the time of ROTS and had trouble. And when Bail spoke against the Enhanced Security and Enforcement Act after the Star of Iskin incident, he was shouted down.
I'm not saying that the Jedi were disliked by the majority of Republic citizens, probably not, but they were definitely feared by many (including the Neimoidians in TPM), and there was a level of mistrust--enough that they didn't react in disbelief when Palpatine talked about the Jedi trying to overthrow the Republic and assassinate him.
There are only a couple of documented instances where Jedi took children from their parents in questionable ways, Jax Pavan and Roan Shryne come to mind, but both of those could be chalked up more to misunderstanding than flat out child theft.
That said I don't think a Jedi like C'baoth would take no for an anwser if push came to shove.
The Essential Guide to the Force outlines this subject in a little more detail stating that while some of the populace was suspicious of the Jedi, most were happy to give their children the chance to be a Jedi Knight, viewing it as an honor. We also know that the Jedi frequented Orhanages for recruits as well with the approval of the Republic.
Etain Tur-Mukan on the other hand was very unsure of how the Jedi Order would react if they learned she was with child and took steps to hide him from the Jedi Order. She doesn't actually present any proof of her fears, but I do think she had some right to be concerned. Considering that Jedi of that age are not allowed children and that clones were considered property of the Republic, well lets just say I think it was wise of her not to leave her childs fate to chance and politics.
I forget the episode name(and don't feel like looking it up) but I've always wondered what happened to the Force sensetive children that Bane kidnapped in Season 2. Conventional logic would suggest that they would be returned to the parents, but we don't see it happen...............
And yes, Bail had 2000 signiatures on his petition including the likes of Mon Mothma - but the remainder of the Senate had greater numbers. It was outlined in a Star Wars Insider article. Many of them would have been allies of the Jedi Order.
Curious about this actually... how much has TCW specifically done to villianize the Jedi?
It's likely quite subjective to the veiwer.
I find situations like the mind invasion of Cad Bane and the whole Deception episode to be a couple examples. And I already mentioned the mystery of where those Forclings ended up and recently we had Obi-Wan standing by and allowing the slaver the be killed by Rex while he was essentially surrendering.
While it can vary on a case by case basis to me the end should not justify the means for the heroes.
Didn't Palpatine use this scared/disfigured face as the evidence that the Jedi had turned on the Republic and needed to be hunted down? If you're a Senator and you see your leader disfigured in a Jedi attack, I think you'd turn on them pretty quickly.
And we're never really given insight into how the "average person" sees the Jedi or what they thought of the Jedi Purge. My guess would be that, like in real life, opinion was split. Someone people don't like these super powered people being there, doing basically what they want, stealing babies to train in their huge temples, influencing publiclly elected politicans etc... Others would seethem as heroes andw ould be honored if one of their family joined their ranks.
I don't think the Jedi would be ok with a general kill order for them out there. Remember, Order 66 wasn't "the Jedi with you is acting in an irresponsible fashion, remove him from comment, using force is needed". The Clones killed Jedi who weren't mis-treating them, killing them, turning to the dark side etc... And they didn't just kill the Jedi leading them in battle. They went after the Jedi in the temple and the children. Wookiepedia attributes Lucas as saying the Jedi were not aware of it, and really that only makes sense.
I think thats the point. They don't all turn into killers. They still honorable, selfless soliders who are loyal to the Republic they fight for. And that Republic (which was turning into the Empire) told them of a new enemy they had to defeat, so they did.
When did Obi-Wan describe the Jedi as not being dogmatic, inflexible etc....
OK, I see... thanks. And I'd agree with this:
Interestingly, he didn't. It seems to be a facet he became reluctantly aware of over time, and that he chose to gloss over when talking about them to Luke.
No, its one of those things that fans invented, and got mad at Lucas for later. We (fans as a whole) imagined and invented what WE thought the Jedi order would and should be. Obi-wan (or Yoda, Vader or Palpatine for that matter) never gets into the nature of the Jedi Order. As far as I remember the only descriptions of the Jedi we get in OT are that they were the guardians and peace and justic in the Old Republic, and that they fought int he clone wars.
What does Obi-wan say about the Jedi that would have/should have made the fans believe they weren't dogmatic, inflexible, sat in a literal ivory tower away from the rest of the galaxy, and had the fatal flaw of being the GFFA equivalent of ostriches regarding what was going on around them? (and I disagree with some of that).
Well, that's part of my point... fan expectations based on fan interpretations of what we saw in the OT. What I wrote above is just a possible in-universe explanation of why Obi-Wan didn't say certain things, despite what the PT showed us.
By the end of ROTS, he has seen the "light" to some extent. When Anakin confronts him about being told to spy on the Chancellor, Obi-Wan wearily tells him that the Council is asking him, not him. He's conflicted about killing Anakin on Yoda's orders and ultimately can't bring himself to do much more than leave Anakin to get fried, feeling terrible about himself afterwards.
Exactly. "I didn't want to put you in this position Anakin"... "the Council is asking". And the conclusion of their fight on Mustafar. I also think Yoda came to similar conclusions, but later than Obi-Wan. "Failed I have...". I don't think he's just talking about not besting Palpatine in their duel. And then in the OT we have a different perspective on some things from both of them, such as Yoda saying "wars not make one great". The end of ROTS teaches the surviving Jedi a lot, and gives them things to ruminate over for the coming years... including reassessing some of their beliefs and practices. I think Luke's training is different than the PT Jedi's training in part due to this, and not just because they don't have the resources and time that they would have had back in the day.
Anakin: "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."
Obi-wan: "Well then you are lost!"
Obi-wan believes in the Jedi Order. His last command is from Yoda to take Luke to his family. Then he volunteers to stay there and watch over him. AND while in his solitude, he will learn to commune with Qui-Gon from Yoda.
So I don't think Obi-wan ever agrees with Anakin's point of view nor entertains that Anakin may be right, even for a second.
Of course not, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't start having feelings that the Jedi and the Council may not have always been right about everything they've done.
But there isn't anything to indicate that ever thought they were a bunch of dogmatic fools, sitting in their ivory tower, clueless about what was going on around them.
But there is zero evidence that Obi-wan or Yoda ruminate over the old Jedi practices and decide they were bad or wrong. Nothing at all. Obi-wan sayst he council is asking Anakin to spy on Palpatine, but he defends the "order" to do so. And wouldn't the council wanting Palpatine spyed on indicate they aren't dogmatic, out of touch people with no clue as to whats going on?
How is Lukes training different? What beliefs and practices did Obi-Wan and Yoda decide were out of date?
Like I said, its fans building up what they thought the Jedi order was/should be using their own imagination and/or EU material produced bewteen RotJ and TPM, and then Lucas's vision not jiving with it.
In that same sceen Obi-wan defends the council when Anakin attacks them. He didn't want to put Anakin in that position, but then goes on to defend the decision and tries to convince Anakin to do it. He doesn't call him a bunch of fools who have no idea whats going on. That scene basically tells us that the Jedi DO Know something is up with the Chancellor and want/need to find out what, and that Obi-wan clearly supports them.
Obi-Wan doesn't have to think the Jedi are evil to appreciate that the Jedi Order is flawed.
He may be too dogmatic, but by the end of ROTS, he seems to realise that and becomes almost like Qui-Gon by the time of ANH. To Luke, he's a kindly father figure like Qui-Gon was to Anakin, in contrast to the strict Obi-Wan we see in AOTC.
We've not even given an indication that he thinks its flawed. He can not like them asking Anakin to spy (though he went on to defend it) that doesn't mean he think sthe order or its rules or how they opperate is flawed.
Again, what does he do to show/indicate ANY dislike for the Jedi order or how they opperate? He doesn't like they areputting his friend in a tough position, but he defends their reasons for doing it, so thats not it. And him being nicer to Luke, when hes in his 60's, doesn't mean he's decided the order was wrong or too dogmatic or whatever. He could be acting nicer (which I don't really see, but sure) to get Luke to gow it him (remember anakin WANTED to go, LUke resisted and was thrust into going with Obi-wan when his aunt and uncle were killed). He may know he has to treat Luke different (good teachers don't treat all students the same). Its hardly evidence of Obi-wan thinking the Jedi Order was flawed.
That's REALLY crappy evidence. If the president of the US stood before the house of representatives with a scar on his face and claimed that the US military leaders had staged a coup, but that the representatives need not worry because he already made the unilateral decision to have every general executed with out trial... that wouldn't fly.
The Jedi don't have to be cool with it, they can't do anything about it. What are they could to do? Start killing senators in protest? Back out of the war? Leave the Republic? All the clone commanders were contacted and given Order 66 directly, they might not be aware of a general "Jedi Rebellion" when Cody receives Order 66 from Sidious, all he might "know" is that Obi-Wan Kenobi is allegedly guilty of treason. However, I'm just throwing out possibilities. I also find it curious that the clones start referring to Sidious as "lord" when the issue is given, and they start rounding up the Utapaunans and Wookiees, and threaten to shoot a senator (Bail). Lucas tends to emulate history in telling Star Wars, Julius Caesar and how he won over the army and turned them against the Republic could be used as inspiration for Palpatine winning over the clone's loyalty somehow such that their personal loyalty to him is stronger than their loyalty to the Republic. I don't know.
Uhh... what is? I don't have any problem with Lucas' vision or how the OT and PT mesh with each other.
Good points. If you feel like it, take a look at the current Order 66 thread in the PT forum.
I'm trying to follow this discussion, and maybe it's just because it's late here, but my head is spinning.
My points are these:
Obi-Wan may not have seen the PT Order the way I see it. How he saw them exactly by the time we got to ANH, is debatable. I would say that both he and Yoda recognized that they had made a few mistakes, their isolation and inflexibility being two of them. At the end of the ROTS novelization, Yoda outright admits that he had been wrong to rely so much on the Unifying Force to the expense of the Living Force. (I don't remember the exact quote.) It does seem that both Yoda and Obi-Wan were more in tune with the Living Force in the OT and less focused on the Unifying Force.
I would dispute the idea that old Ben knew the PT Jedi were dogmatic and inflexible and still didn't see that as a problem. As far as fan expectations, I think most people expected the PT Jedi to be exactly as old Ben described them, and many of us do not imagine "guardians of peace and justice" to be dogmatic, inflexible and isolated. And I do think the Jedi's primary intention were to be guardians of peace and justice, and the inflexibility and isolation was not necessarily intentional, it just developed that way over time due to their own fears. And they ended up so afraid of the Dark Side that the Dark Side destroyed them from within.
But in spite of the Jedi not being anywhere near perfect, I don't hate the prequels. In fact, I'd be far more disappointed if the Jedi were perfect.
As far as Anakin being "right" about anything during his insane ranting on Mustafar, of course he wasn't.
You have a different definition of honorable and selfless than I do I guess. They do all turn into killers, even counting the EU there are almost no exceptions.
What they took part in was a mass exucution of the Jedi Order, from the children to the elderly. There were no trials, no thought given about what was right and what was wrong - just a war crime (and likely a mass grave). If they really cared about the Republic that they served, and the democracy it stood for, this would have gone down way differently.
"I was just following orders" isn't acceptable defense on moral and ethical levels, esspecially for command staff. Nor is the fact that their actions were legal under Palpatine's perversion of Republic law. They commited a war crime, showed no ability to tell right from wrong or think for themselves. They are accountable for some for the worst crimes in the history of the Star Wars Universe - how people can look at them, as a group, as heroes, I really don't understand.
As for the Obi-Wan discussion:
I don't think he learned anything of value from the destruction of his Order. If he did he hid it well. He lied to Luke about his father and decieved Luke about his sister. He never had any intention of telling Luke anything but lies.
Luke was to be told the truth when he completed his training. In the EU it was Qui-Gon who told Obi-Wan to follow this course of action. The Jedi had good reasons for Obi-Wan's deception; this was adequately explained a long time ago in ROTJ. Though the "fess up" crowd may refuse to admit it, there are often morally defensible reasons to lie, if a greater good depends on it.
I just lost a well-thought out post so to hit the highlights that I remember: not all lies are "sins" like some think.
Also abbreviated from my original:
I know you like to cite Wild Space, Stealth and Gambit from time to time. In one, Obi-Wan told Anakin he thought the Jedi were too isolated and Anakin scoffed at that. You'd think it would be the reverse.
Also: where does this idea of "isolation" truly come from? It MAY be true, but I don't see it in 6 hours of movie time that represents more than a couple of decades in-universe time. I don't doubt that the Jedi are largely known by reputation alone when one considers just how many Jedi there are in relation to the overall population of the galaxy - but that is a numbers thing and not a deliberate isolation in my mind.
Going by the JA books, the Jedi hitched rides to/from missions with ordinary folks all the time.
As for inflexibility: the Order allowed Anakin to be trained, grudgingly, I'll agree. Personally, at the time of that decision (pre-Qui-Gon's death, keep in mind and no "hint" of Sith) the Order was probably correct in its decision because Anakin was precisely the wrong age to join the Order. Younger, older, may have worked out okay.