Clone Wars Order 66 on TCW

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by EHT, Jan 21, 2012.

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  1. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    That's like saying no soldier would consent to having death being a viable punishment for desertion during wartime, though it is in some cases, troops don't go AWOL in protest, and there's really nothing they can do about it.

    Order 66 - if they went the route that I suggested - would just say that IF a Jedi did something wrong, then they SHOULD be removed from command with lethal Force. The Jedi would have no reason to protest this, in the same way that a soldier would have no reason to protest capital punishment in response to desertion. That would be like saying "No! I SHOULD be able to desert if I want to." Or in the Jedi case, like saying "No, we should be able to abuse our power without consequence and no system should be in place to remove us from command if we do." I don't have a problem with the fact that I could go to jail for the rest of my life if I kill someone. I don't protest a punishment for an act I know better than to commit, and have no intention of committing. And if they Jedi did abandon the war in response, like you suggested, then they would be deserting and would be traitors anyway.

    It doesn't matter if TCW was around or not. TCW was written after the fact, and they chose not to keep "lord" as the means by which they refer to Palpatine.

    Killing Krell is still evidence that they do NOT obey every order without question. They themselves acknowledged that what they were doing was treasonous against the Republic, and they did it anyway. There would be no evidence of wrong doing on behalf of the Jedi. The clones kill them without question. That's a stark contrast. It doesn't matter who the order came from. As people that can think independently and recognize right from wrong, such an order should not play out in such a manner.

    The American president in commander in chief of the us military, but if Obama got on the radio and ordered someone to shoot their superior officer - who they've worked with, know, and trust - in the back, I'm certain it would not play out that way. While he was trying to remain cryptic, I think Filoni has hinted that not all clones will obey the order, since he raised the question as to what would happen to a clone that refused to obey.
  2. EHT Manager: New Films

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    Just wanted to clarify that this was mis-quoted (I didn't post it). Will visit this thread later to catch up on the rest of the discussion. [face_peace]
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    Aside from the dubious attempt to define the morality of the decision by outcomes, you're misrepresenting the situation. They did not have a problem with him knowing the truth by the time he had completed his training. At that point he could have "used the truth to sway Vader and defeat the Emperor" the same as in the film.

    The Kaminoans don't know that the Sith are involved. According to the EU they did not hard-wire Order 66 into the clones. The point of the clones is not that they are programmed with orders, but that they are programmed to be receptive to orders and responsive to the Chancellor.

    For one thing, Shryne doesn't know anything about it in Dark Lord. There may be other examples ( Order 66? ).
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    As I said, Obi-Wan described the Jedi as "guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic," and for some of us, being inflexible and out of touch is not compatible with this description. Maybe for some of you, the two can mix.

    However, when Luke saw Owen and Beru's burnt bodies, he was sympathetic. He did not tell Luke not to mourn or miss Owen and Beru.

    Obi-Wan tried to teach Anakin in a way that meshed with Anakin's background and personality, and was shot down more than once by the Council.

    Palpatine brought down the Order, and would have done so without Anakin's help. Of course Anakin's choices were the wrong ones, but let's not give him the blame for an action Palpatine had planned long before Anakin was ever in the picture.

    And Anakin's issue was not his attachments. All humans (or in the GFFA, sentient beings) have attachments--even Mace Windu, if one takes Shatterpoint into account. Anakin's issue was how he handled those attachments. The Jedi did not seem to know any way to teach him other than to tell him that he must let them go, which is not teaching. I can tell a third grader that he needs to be able to read the Magic Treehouse series on his own, but telling him, doesn't make it happen.

    And I don't really blame the Jedi for that per se--they had never had to teach a youngling or padawan not to miss his mother, because due to their own policies, few if any of their padawans actually missed their mothers. So how could they know how to help Anakin? But it's an example of their own policies working against them.

    And yes, real life schools start children at roughly the same age, but they don't take those children from their parents 24/7 and tell them that they can only associate with people from the school.

    Teachers and Catholic priests both enter their professions as adults and sign contracts with adult awareness of what they are getting into. Jedi younglings do not.

    And of course the Jedi have rules, I would expect them to do so. But as far as the comparison to real-life schools: "Don't talk or run in the hallway" is hardly in the same league as "Say goodbye to your mother forever and don't ever miss her."

    And yes, I do keep bringing that up, because I absolutely believe that if the Jedi had even tried to understand what Anakin dealt with regarding Shmi, the galaxy might have been a different place.
  5. Robimus Force Ghost

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    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Sluggo, lets put it this way,

    If the Jedi recieved an order from the Republic that all Clone Troopers needed to be killed because they had betrayed the Republic, would the Jedi have followed that order?

    I think not, and that would highlight what I'm trying to convey about morals and ethics here. The Jedi are soldiers in the GAR, same as the Clones, yet they would have handled the situation in a completely different manner.

    As for examples of independent clones. We've seen tons of that in TCW's thus far, actually more than we've seen in the EU. The whole Krell arc was filled with the stuff, we've seen Slick and Cut, we've seen their compassion in the Ryloth arc, so on, so forth.

    Order 66 wasn't hardwired yet Obi-Wan's friend, Commander Cody, still exercised the order without delay or hesitation. That to me is not consistent with how the Clones have been presented in TCW's.

    These guys aren't hardened soldiers with the inability for self reasoning in this show, they also (as the Krell episodes highlight) can and do think for themselves. This isn't an issue about defective clones, there is something more at play here.

    I understand that the clones are very much victims in this equation, I can sympathize with their situation, but I also have to call it as I see it. A number of these clones committed a crime that I can't forgive, when its been shown that they do have the ability to reason things out on their own.

    They were doing what they were trained to do, they were following orders and they acted legally. None of that makes their attack on the Jedi right.
  6. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    It would have made much more sense if Order 66 was meant to arrest a Commanding Officer, not just specifically Jedi..
  7. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
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    There is nothing in the phrase "guardians of peace and justice" that contridicts anything in the PT. In fact in the PT, thats excatly how they are protrayed. Once Owen and Beru are killed Obi-wan instantly jumps on Luke, and uses it to get him to leave with him, which what Obi-wan wants. Like I said, I'm sorry that Lucas's vision of the Jedi doesn't match the one you came up with, but there is no contridiction there.

    When did this happen? And even if the council didn't like how Obi-wan was going to teach Anakin, doesn't mean all Jedi are trained hte sameway.


    Really? Anakin now played no part in destorying the Jedi order? Have you seen the movies?


    Real life Teachers and Priests don't have power that can be dangerous if not trained how to properly use it.


    Thats not what the JEdi do, the Jedi take children as infants so they don't have to do that.

    Of course Yoda and Obi-wan do try to get Luke to let go of his attachments to his friends and let them die rather then rush off to save them.......sorry how did they change?


    The Jedi aren't soliders trained to follow orders (or have it breed into them to be more willing to do so). They also value all life, I beleive thers a CW episode in season 1 or 2 when they don't want too kill a creature because its a living thing, even though it's causing issues on the planet its on.
  8. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2

    There is nothing in the phrase "guardians of peace and justice" that contridicts anything in the PT. In fact in the PT, thats excatly how they are protrayed. Once Owen and Beru are killed Obi-wan instantly jumps on Luke, and uses it to get him to leave with him, which what Obi-wan wants. Like I said, I'm sorry that Lucas's vision of the Jedi doesn't match the one you came up with, but there is no contridiction there.

    When did this happen? And even if the council didn't like how Obi-wan was going to teach Anakin, doesn't mean all Jedi are trained hte sameway.


    Really? Anakin now played no part in destorying the Jedi order? Have you seen the movies?


    Real life Teachers and Priests don't have power that can be dangerous if not trained how to properly use it.


    Thats not what the JEdi do, the Jedi take children as infants so they don't have to do that.

    Of course Yoda and Obi-wan do try to get Luke to let go of his attachments to his friends and let them die rather then rush off to save them.......sorry how did they change?


    The Jedi aren't soliders trained to follow orders (or have it breed into them to be more willing to do so). They also value all life, I beleive thers a CW episode in season 1 or 2 when they don't want too kill a creature because its a living thing, even though it's causing issues on the planet its on.
  9. EHT Manager: New Films

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  10. CGI-BOBAFENT Force Ghost

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    ^^^^^^^^^
    agreed [over quoting is my pet peeve on message boards]
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  11. EHT Manager: New Films

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    True, but I wasn't so much talking about over-quoting as incorrect use of the quoting feature... making it hard to read because it ends up bolding the wrong parts, etc.
  12. ewoksarenotfood Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2012
    What do you guys and gals think? Will Order 66 be in The Clone Wars? Or do you think the series will end right before Revenge of the Sith? Also is the subject matter of the Jedi purge a bit too much for a show that many kids watch? Do you even think the Clone Wars will make it to this period in the timeline or will it be canceled due to some recent poor ratings? Yes I know Lucas Animation is working on season 6 but if season 5 does poorly who knows where we will see it.
  13. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

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    Oct 14, 2004
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    At this point, there's a chance we might see it because there's some serious foreshadowing going on with Rex, and in the Umbara arc in particular. Then again, you can never be sure if this series will follow through on certain matters.
  14. JackG Force Ghost

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    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
  15. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    Filoni did mention once on the Force Cast that he would like to explore Order 66.
  16. Esg Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Bump

    It's likely the Jedi wouldn't even have bothered taking the child. They likely would have just reprimanded her like Kam's dad
    Last edited by Esg, Sep 8, 2012
  17. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

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    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Midnight Cowboy says a lot of things.

    Word is gizmodeus stole his hat though.
  18. Anakin_Prime Force Ghost

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    Feb 27, 2005
    star 1
    Do we really want any more tampering with movie continuity?? I surely don't..... Do any of you wanting Order 66 redone really think TCW will improve on this?? I hope they let it be. The movies have suffered enough.... I thought the whole idea for this show was to be a filler between movies? The show may have become too much of a success than its own good.
    Zeta1127, eht13 and Esg like this.
  19. Darth_Bizarro Jedi Master

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    May 25, 2011
    I can't foresee this show having a proper resolution to its narrative if it doesn't continue on into the timeline of Revenge of the Sith. This show has played with some big ideas and I'd hate for it to all end with a feeling like everything we've seen hasn't really mattered in the grand scheme of things. I want this show to force me to look at the movies in a new light just like the prequels forced me to look at the originals in a new light.
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  20. EHT Manager: New Films

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    Ahh, forgot about this thread. Thanks for the bump, @Esg . Riiiiiise.
  21. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    All I know is, way back when, it was Lucas' idea that Order 66 be a standard contingency order rather than some behaviorally conditioned response to a trigger phrase. The EU picked up on that idea and came to officially denote Order 66 as:
    "In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established."

    If TCW decides to do something with Order 66 other than the symbolic foreshadowing hinted at during the Umbara story arc, I would be perfectly fine with that, so long as that idea was respected, rather than recanting and backpedaling to the idea of Order 66 as a code phrase activating subconscious conditioning.
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  22. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I don't want it to be a subconscious trigger, because I don't want to get to know the clones only for Palpatine to say some trigger word and have them revert into Jedi killing machines. As with Palpatine having to manipulate the senate into mistrusting the Jedi, I hope something goes into play to drive a wedge between the clones and the Jedi. But on the other hand I just think it being an unremarkable contingency plan also makes it too simple, that the clones would betray their long time friends without question like that, when TCW has now established that they do have the capacity to question orders or choose to commit treason themselves.

    However, I do think it is highly conspicuous that the clones start calling Palpatine "Lord." Part of me thinks that Lucas may have written that into the dialogue without really thinking about the implications, but even so it's there now. The clones are using the same title to refer to Chancellor Palpatine as the CIS leaders used to refer to Darth Sidious. And it seems a little cheap to think that lord has been an acceptable form of address in reference to the Chancellorship this whole time, and just nobody has chosen to use it. I believe a clone simply refers to him as "sir" in Hostage Crisis.
  23. Robimus Force Ghost

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    Jul 6, 2007
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    Maybe, but we don't know what knowledge Eatin did or didn't have. She may have known nothing about Kam's dad, or maybe she heard about Lorn Pavan's situation and feared something similar happening to her and her son. The point is that 'maybe' is a pretty difficult thought to get past.
  24. JackG Force Ghost

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    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    This clears up the issue of what exactly the Orders were, memorised or programmed. Let's hope Filoni doesn't mess it up.
  25. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

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    Oct 14, 2004
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    You can bet your sweet ass they'll change it.
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