Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by EHT, Jan 21, 2012.
I know. And to think the source it appeared in tried so hard to incorporate the new TCW canon too.
IMO it should be changed. I can't see:
Clone training: "And when Order 66 is given, you will henceforth refer to the Chancellor as 'my lord.' And should any nosy senators poke around into what's going on, shoot at them. And go ahead and apprehend any witnesses. All as part of a contingency plan in case of Jedi rebellion."
Good point. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this.
I always thought the catch was that the clones had been genetically engineered to obey any order without question.
However, TCW has changed this. They individualized the clones so much, and the Krell arc shows us they might not obey orders at all.
They have to change it at this point, in order for it to work. I don't necessarily mind, just as long as we end up with something that makes sense.
Since hearing that Order 66 will be covered (or at least "explored") I have grown more apprehensive about what they would do with it.
Even though that explanation may have had Lucas' blessing before, that unfortunately doesn't mean it will necessarily stand now. Whether they can respect that or if they disregard it is probably the biggest question here.In the movies, we are simply told by Lama Su:"You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."Then in ROTS we see them execute the order when it comes from Palpatine. This has worked with the EU explanation above because nothing in either source contradicts the other. The movie was vague enough that it really could just be an order being followed without question. We are even told by Lama Su that clones can think creatively, so their growing individual expression should not be a surprise. We also see Commander Cody and Obi-Wan being very friendly with each other right before Cody gets the order and executes it. But it's still possible he was following an order.With TCW, those levels of individual expression are amped up a lot, but that still doesn't contradict things necessarily. Their levels of friendship with the Jedi are amped up a lot too, which is harder to get by, but it is still in the vein of what ROTS showed us between Obi-Wan and Cody. So following an order without question could still work... and here's the thing with following orders:Lama Su said any order, and Obi-Wan probably interpreted that to be any order from commanding officers, which the Jedi ended up becoming when the war started. The clones did indeed follow thier orders once the war began, so they did as expected. But what Lama Su said is not necessarily contradicted by the Order 66 verbiage above, in that the ultimate orders that the clones would follow over all others without question are ones coming from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) of the GAR. So... maybe the show could suggest that the clones always had the ability to question orders from the Jedi, as they did with Krell, but they just didn't have a big enough reason to do so before. Palpatine's orders, on the other hand, could not be questioned.Also... regarding the whole "Manchurian Candidate style built-in trigger" type explanation, and part of why it feels like a bit of a cop-out explanation for the movies and would be a cop-out explanation if pursued by TCW. There's an example from ROTS that I've mentioned before (maybe in this thread) that also doesn't seem to agree with it being an internal trigger that the clones don't know they have in them. Palpatine says "the time has come" to Cody (and maybe others that we don't hear) when he says "Commander Cody... the time has come. Execute Order 66". This phrase really seems to imply some foreknowlege of the order, but beyond that it even seems to imply that the clones (or the clone commanders anyway) knew that the order was coming sooner or later... that it was essentially inevitable that sooner or later they would be called on to eliminate the Jedi, as per some existing agreement or understanding they had with Palpatine. That could also explain why they start calling him "Lord".
Couldn't Palpatine still say "The time has come, execute order 66?" if this trigger was implanted in the clones, even if they can't remember it until it happens because it was there all along and maybe "The time as come" is part of the code words .
Possibly, but it implies too much to the audience; it's way too loaded with potential dark implications. If it's purely code words to activate a trigger, he could have just said something like "Commander Cody, electric pineapple. Execute Order 66".
But that wouldn't be dramatic would it? I still feel Rex foreshadowed the existence of such a switch in Carnage.
Well, I'm not sure what to expect TCW to do with this, but I was pointing out some possible avenues (including ones that would allow them to not trample EU and movie interpretations).
Regarding Rex's issue with not being able to shoot Krell, I still think that was his personal hang-up based on knowing what a big deal it was to execute a commanding officer and a Jedi; the same issue anyone would have, clone or not. Besides, if it was indication of a switch, would that mean that the same switch that Palpatine used to make them kill the Jedi could also be used to prevent them from killing a Jedi before that point? Seems kind of odd and not really necessary, since they wouldn't be inclined to kill a Jedi before then anyway.
In the novel:
Cody responded as he had been trained since before he'd even awakened in his creche-school. "It will be done, my lord."
Cody was a clone. He would execute the order faithfully, without hesitation or regret. But he was also human enough to mutter glumly, "Would it have been too much to ask for the order to have come through before I gave him back the bloody lightsaber?"
So it's possible that, at the time, the idea was that it's programmed in- but that it was changed later.
TCW has really brought out the individuality and free thinking of the clones, but I thought something was off back when ROTS first came out just because of the clones saying "my lord" and because the clones point their rifles at a senator and tell him to leave, and then when he witnesses a child getting gunned down, they start shooting at him (this is much more explicit in the script, but even in the movie you can see blaster bolts going past him after Zett is killed until Appo tells the other clones to let him go. Then we see on Utapau some of the Pau'ans walking in file past the clones when it is asked if they had found Kenobi, per the databank (prior to the update of Starwars.com:
"Medon spread the word to the Utapaun resistance, so that when the Republic clone troopers did storm Utapau, they were bolstered by native Utapaun forces. In a cruel reversal, however, Chancellor Palpatine secured his position of Emperor and immediately subjugated Utapau under martial law. His loyal clone troopers defeated the Separatist battle droid units, but almost immediately began placing Utapaun resistance fighters under arrest to further control the planet."Which just seems random, and I see no justification for that if Order 66 is just a response to a Jedi Rebellion. Also seems out of place since Palpatine wasn't Emperor until after these events when Bail was back on Coruscant after rescuing Obi-Wan. So it just seems like it was either a Manchurian Candidate trigger, or the clones are complicit in Palpatine's coup and know that he is making a bid to become Emperor (and address him appropriately).
That was Fox who said that, Appo got injured in that fight against Zett, sorry for correction and good post and i would also agree with you too
Not disregarding the code word possibility, but in RotS the other times where Palpatine initiates the Order he doesn't use the words "The time has come." It's been a while since I've seen it but I specifically recall with Plo Koon and Yoda that those words weren't said.
Right, we only hear it said when he addresses Cody. It could be said to the other commanders, but we don't hear it.
Which goes with my points about "the time has come" indicating pre-existing knowledge and expectation of the order coming sooner or later... as well as them calling him Lord.
I don't know how TCW will handle this, but I see those points as supporting the "following Palpatine's orders without question and knowing this order would be coming sooner or later" view more than the "Manchurian Candidate trigger" view.
I wouldn't be against the idea that somehow all the clones are in on Palpatine's bid for power. I just don't know how Palpatine could reasonably approach the millions of clones and make such an offer and without the Jedi finding out. And with TCW establishing that the clones are more independent than previously believed, I would kind of expect some clones to flat out reject being a part of the plot and ratting Palpatine out, unless Palpatine has something to threaten them with, or unless something happens that makes the Jedi look REALLY bad in the clones' eyes.
The Manchurian Candidate idea seems like it would work the easiest, though I think it's kind of cheap if they go through all the trouble trying to establish that the clones are individuals, only to show that Palpatine could have pressed the "win button" at any time. The fact that the senate is totally cool with the Jedi - that have served them for thousands of years - getting wiped out makes me think/hope that perhaps something big happens to really alienate the Jedi.
I think I like the idea that Palpatine has to manipulate the clones and win them over by actually doing a bit of work. It makes the war more interesting IMO if Palpatine actually has to work hard to come out on top, rather than him putting the Republic in checkmate back during AOTC. But again, I just don't know how Palpatine could win over the millions of clones like that.
So now Palpatine is manipulating the Clones and not programming them to kill the Jedi during Order 66.
It's still up in the air. Lucas may have changed his mind or he may say that it's just a contingency order. If it's a contingency order, I wonder what the context for how it will be brought up in TCW will be.
Like, can a single Jedi be rebelling and Order 66 be issued against that ONE Jedi (for instance if there were another Krell-like incident), or would Order 66 inherently deal with the Jedi Order as a whole.
It still wouldn't deal with the issue of why Palpatine becomes "Lord," why martial law was declared and the freedom fighters arrested, or why the clones are ballsy enough to point a blaster at a senator pre-Empire.
I hope they will deal with the issue of Palps getting rid of Dooku's Dark Jedi.
I don't. If they're not going to incorporate them, I don't want them touched. Everything, primarily with Tol Skorr by this point, is happening off screen. And everything that happened to the others happened before the series started. Let it be left in peace.
There are other they could touch on like Shala Doneeta, Artel Darc, Sardoth and make some of the other guys up. There had to be more dark siders, lets just see them betrayed. By order 66 Skorr and Bulq were dealt with. Doesnt one of the Opress brothers kill a weequay darksider in the trailer?
I agree that there's a lot that could be done within the show if they decided to start using the idea of the Dark Acolytes, but they've been unofficially banned because of a presumed discrepancy with the Sith's Rule of Two, mainly in the form of the belief that people watching the show are too stupid to understand the difference between Dark Jedi and Sith Lord and would get confused. And since they're not doing to use them correctly, I'd prefer an offhand remark or unnecessary proclamation that threatens their place in canon not be made by the show.
People should be already confused by Ventress and lets not forget Sora Buq has his own modell. I don't see why not?
I never thought that the EU concept of non-Sith "Dark Jedi" affiliated would jive with Lucas. But then in Children of the Force Sidious is kidnapping children to become spies trained in the Force, though I don't know if that precludes lightsaber training. But then Filoni turns around and says the idea of Dark Acolytes doesn't fit with the TCW universe and that it probably won't happen. And Dooku seems uninterested in having Jedi in his service in the Zygerria arc.
I think Children of the Force created enough of an out to say that the stuff involving the Dark Acolytes perhaps did happen, but that it won't be depicted in TCW given Filoni's comments. Though I imagine it's Lucas that shot the idea down, given a very early interview with Filoni back during Season 1 or 2 in which he said he was exploring how to fit characters like Sora Bulq into the show. Sora Bulq might be a character that he particularly likes or something, since I believe past comments by Filoni have been more respectful to that character - that if he can't work the pre-existing story into TCW, then he doesn't want to touch him.
Then we get Krell. See the contradictions
Krell is an example of a Dark Jedi wanting to become a Sith by apprenticing himself to Dooku. I think that's different from characters like Bulq that are Dark Side, work for the Sith, but remain outside of the Sith Order.