Full Series Order 66 series

The Jedi were betrayed, by Palps since he tricked them into believing he was on their side and since was responsible for the chips.

As for Shaak, she was obviously using the Kaminoans arguments against them. She in particular seemed very aware and compassionate towards the clones. Other Jedi, maybe not so much. Certainly not to the extent that the Jedi deserved it.

 

How people misinterpret that all the time is beyond me. You can practically see the airquotes around her when she says the word.

Though I guess intentionally ignoring a scene's context is a pretty good way to demonize a character.

 

Speaking of Clones.....

 

This perfectly sums it up!!! Damn BF1 nostalgia as well. Please please please bring this back!!

I don't have a problem with say one or two clones displaying traits (maybe because they were grown to display it and act as some type of commando trooper rather than a usual grunt soldier), but otherwise, 99% of all troopers in the billion whatever size GAR should be like the guys on the left. They obey orders unquestionally!

 

They aren't made to be organic robots. That is part of the whole point of using clones instead of robots. They can think, and they can make decisions. While they may be compliant, but they are still capable of creative thought. Which is what is advertised as what makes them better than droids. Being compliant does not mean they can't question an order, or don't care that a general is needlessly putting them in harms way. If the point was just to have a bunch of mindless droids why go through all of the trouble of extra expenses to create living organisms?

 

Agreed, Lucas designed them to be an obedient and loyal living force to be reckoned with - the precursors of the Stormtroopers. In fact would be interesting if they had formed the backbone of the future Imperial military - clone stormtroopers perhaps.

The point was that I agree they weren't robots, hence all the chip nonsense in TCW was a shame as it completely ruined it.

PRECISELY!! "Clones can think creatively. You will find they are immensely superior to droids." That is their advantage. The droids have faster reflexes, e.g. in space combat, only Jedi could match them I guess. But droids tended to be good only for blasting their way through in numbers. The point of the clone army was to have an army that could think creatively in how to fulfill their orders and form strategies. But they were still beings that were totally obedient - this was key to Palpatine's plan.

Clones can only question the legality of an order. They cannot willfully disobey a legal order - which Order 66 was - it was authenticated as being issued from the Supreme Commander in Chief. Had it not been given, then there is no "automatically kill the Jedi at a predetermined time", or if Palpatine is removed from office, "kill the Jedi trigger".

That's all nonsense. The clones could be just as ruthless as a battle droid or stormtrooper. All 3 require the right leadership or guidance as to how they carry out those orders. In the first case, you have ethical Jedi commanding troops. When this was lost, the clone troopers were cut loose and you began to see them for what they were designed to do.

 

I'm not sure the clone troopers were necessary meant to be precursors to stormtroopers, I think they were meant to be stormtroopers (just renamed), at least under the initial plan.

ROTS was released in 2005, and there is an interview with MTV from that same year in which Lucas talks about stormtroopers being a mix of Jango clones, clones from other templates introduced at a later time, and citizens forced into service.

But for Rebels, the crew went off of Lucas' notes which described the clones as having fallen out of service, with Palpatine realizing that patriots showed greater dedication and uniformity than clones.

So, I'm guessing over the course of TCW Lucas obviously changed his mind and didn't want clones and compulsory service to be the foundation of the stormtroopers and instead wanted loyalist enlistees. The vision seemed to change from one in which Palpatine was this evil guy that oppressed every corner of his Empire, to one in which he's a ruler that maintained the support of the people in the core worlds, and I think the stormtroopers changed to show this new vision. These are guys that believe in the Empire, and not because they were brainwashed from birth, but because they saw the Empire as a positive force, even with free will. Whereas before the idea seemed to be they were all clones bred for combat and poor saps that were forced to serve.

Lucas kept showing the clones in TCW as being very individualistic. And Filoni seems to hint that maybe the effects of Order 66 aren't permanent, since I believe he has stated that some clones felt terrible about what happened. Which to me suggests that maybe the influence of the chips wore off and they were able to step back, realize what they had done, and feel regret. But we've yet to see this.

But it's pretty clear that things changed over time. I don't think Lucas made the PT with some plan all along that he'd explore the mechanics of Order 66 years later. So the story that he wanted to tell was what we got on the big screen at that time. And in AOTC we're told the clones will obey any order without question. And in ROTS, when Order 66 is issued, we see all the clones obey without question. No further explanation was required.

But then I'm guessing when TCW was being created, Lucas and Filoni decided they needed to diversify the clones and not depict them solely as being single minded warriors that just follow orders with no sense of morality. So they were humanized to a point that I think they wrote themselves into a corner where these now very human clones that can disobey orders and even willingly engage in mutiny (as shown on Umbara) still had to listen to Palpatine when it came to Order 66. So then Lucas or Filoni came up with some chip plot device to show that the clones' free will can be overridden. But then it wasn't even enough to let these guys remain the bad guys, but instead they had to be phased out and replaced by patriotic enlistees.

When looking at just the movies, I think the answer was simple and straightforward, but as TCW evolved and they humanized the clones, I think they wrote themselves into a corner making the biochip necessary. Otherwise it's hard to reconcile how the clones could turn on Krell, if they need to obey his every order. But on top of this, somewhere along the line Lucas wanted to make some commentary about how jingoism can strip a person of their individuality to the point that they are even less individualistic than a clone, and that may have guided some of the decisions as well.

 

"To show that my clones have feelings too!" --Dave Filoni.

 

In the films, there is no mention of chips. Chips sounds like something in a computer or battle droid. The clones first appearance in AOTC clearly shows us living genetically created beings. Their genetic code has been altered and perfected to create a totally obedient soldier who is then grown at an enhanced growth rate to age at twice the rate of a normal being. During this growth process from test tube to delivery, the clones are shown to be taught various skills from mental to physical self defence and weapons training (seen in the background as the Kaminoans escort Obi Wan Kenobi through the facility). The Kaminoans also mention that "clones can think creatively, you will find that they are immensely superior to droids". At the same time, the Kaminoan mentions that "They are totally obedient and will obey any order without question".

Thus there are plenty of film references, which should hold priority given they are GL's vision and the original concept, that support the fact that there are no chips. Clones obey orders. They are only good in the sense that they are directed by their Jedi Generals. Once the Supreme Commander gives a legal order, the clones willfully, willfully obey it and follow it through. They do not hesitate, they do not go into a trance owing to some chip, they immediately creatively think of how best to execute that order and carry it out.

When the clones execute their Jedi Generals, one would imagine they are cut loose and no longer spend time on the pleasantries when conducting their business of carrying out orders from command. They simply shoot and carry out their mission. This makes sense. They are not individual beings with free will. They are not normal humans (or whatever species Jango Fett was). They are genetically modified living beings. There are no chips. The only difference between them and us is they are a separate species (of totally obedient disciplined troopers). They are almost supersoldiers, though they do not possess any superior physical strength. The Emperor wanted a totally obedient army at his disposal when the time came. It was a great plan.

Had Order 66 never been issued, then the clones would have continued to serve under their Jedi Generals. Had Palpatine been legally replaced during the time of the Republic, then command would refer to the legal entity/his successor. This wasn't some countdown clock with the end result being to kill the Jedi. It was just an order. If the clones were given a legal order by a Jedi General or say the Jedi Council to take out another Jedi, they would obey it.

QED.

 

Good point. Tbh I like GL's original idea of the clone troopers actually ending up as the Stormtroopers we see in the OT. This is hinted in the ending at the Assembly Area on AOTC. It seems cool that the iron will of the Emperor is enforced by a totally loyal, unbribeable, obedient army of genetically created clones. Given the absolute vastness of the galaxy of several quadrillions of beings, it makes sense also in order to ensure uniformity and to maintain order to either have such an army or a droid army.

I think several novels and games also hint at the clone troopers donning the new title of Imperial Stormtroopers immediately after ROTS. I would like to think that the majority of the rank and file were indeed clones. Maybe some were Fett clones, and others from various other templates grown on multiple worlds throughout the Empire (the Empire say, nationalizes this process on Kamino for Imperial security).

To compliment this, Imperial Academies train the best to form the officer corp. These volunteers will replace the Jedi Generals as commanding officers for the (clone) stormtroopers and maybe form the occasional commando unit or stormtrooper patrol on a backwater world. The majority of the Imperial army are in fact clone troopers dispersed throughout the various units to ensure loyalty (if an individual citizen were to hesitate, the clone Stormtroopers would still carry out Imperial Command's orders to the letter).

In terms of humanizing the clones, yes, I guess they did that as it was a tv show. Part of the problem was trying to humanize each and every clone or droid. I think you have to accept, that these are not normal free willed individuals. These are artificial creations bred for war and altered to be obedient. I don't really think the chip business is necessary if you go by the film explanations. They are genetically designed beings, enhanced from a template. In terms of loyalty, they would be far superior to a normal force - part of the reason Palpatine was able to wipe out most of the Jedi Order in minutes was this key advantage. I think certain clones trained under different conditions (e.g. ARC troopers of Republic Commandos) should be different - e.g. Rex. But your bog standard trooper should be virtually like a droid. He appears friendly to his Jedi General, but he will simply obey orders - he knows no better. There is a great book - The Rise of Darth Vader which follows ROTS which covers the last moments of the Clone Wars and a little more. On Murkhana, Master Shryne and two other Jedi survive an attempt on their life by their own clones, because the clone commando unit intervenes, questioning the validity of the order. But the Jedi's clone commander has no hesitation in attempting to ambush the Jedi.

In terms of Umbara, I believe that can be justified in the sense that the clones believed the Jedi General to be carrying out illegal orders and so attempted to detain him until they could clarify the situation with the other Jedi General on the world at the time. The whole point is the clones can think creatively up to a point. They cannot willfully disobey a LEGAL order. Order 66 was legal, so whether they have any personal friendship with a general is irrelevant. Clones obey orders and they dutifully carried it out.

As for the later Empire, I think these clone stormtroopers did the same thing - the laws of course had changed even more - now Palpatine's word was absolute law. Of course, goodness knows what happened to their training - perhaps the intensive Kaminoan programme was replaced with a cheaper one which focused on a show of force and not target practice.

 

I know about the training??? I don't care about the semantics of the word chip, but I do take issue with trusting the Kaminoans without question. They are upselling their product to Obi-wan who they think is coming to collect the Jedi's order. Anything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.

GL was involved with putting the chips in TCW too, ya know. And the chips don't retcon the movies.

I already agreed that practically all the clones obey the order with out question, and since the only depiction of clones carrying out order 66 is what you describe I am not sure what you are criticizing. (Remember Tup in TCW had a malfunctioning chip)

I don't disagree, it is what makes them so interesting to me in the first place. But, I also love a good 'regaining their humanity' storyline, which is why Rex is probably my favorite character from TCW.

So when the clones become more human, only to have that stripped away it is delightfully tragic.

 

The majority of the armed forces in the Empire are actually Army Troopers. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army_trooper (these guys really need to be more present in the SW franchise if you ask me)
These guys are actually much more common then Stormtroopers, Stormtroopers being the Empire's elite marines in it's own branch of the military.
The Stormtrooper ranks opened up to non-genetically altered clones shortly after the end of the clone wars. Clones made up about a third of the Stormtrooper corps ranks by 0 aby.

 

I think its also possible Rex and some others resisted the chip's programming upon more reflection. Rex resisted Ventress' Force mind trick way back in the TCW movie, so he's got a very strong will.

 

A very strong will to obey orders. They don't need a chip to "make them do it".

 

I would suggest that you stop thinking of it as a chip. It isn't a chip, it is part of their brains. The genetic modifications by the Kaminoans caused a new area of the brain to grow. This new area controlled the obedience of the clones.

There is nothing in the films that refute the presence of a new section of the brain. The films never go into detail about how the genetic modification caused them to be more obedient. It only tells us the end result of them being obedient. Having a new section of brain does not mean they aren't willfully obeying.

He went into a trance because his brain was damaged. The damage to his brain caused him to go crazy.

They are not normal humans beings because they have been genetically modified correct. This modification came in the form of a new section of the brain which was later referred to as a "chip". Because they are organic beings with a brain that still learn through experience, as shown in the movies, this means they have an elastic brain. This elastic brain means as they experience things they will develop and individual personalities and beliefs over time. Because they are not all connected to a hive mind no two will experience the same event the same way. Given the millions of clones that are created there are bound to be a few occurrences where these developed personalities and beliefs come in conflict with their desire to obey. Most of the time the clone will follow their desire to obey, but because of their ability to think creatively some of the time they will override their desire and disobey.

They may be genetically engineered, but they are not droids. They still obey biology. You are also making a lot of false assumptions based not on what is actually in the films, but based on what you want to be in the films.

I would also say you have to ask if the "without question" part was meant in a literal sense. In most cases it would be a good thing if a subordinate brought up concerns about an order, which would be questioning the order. I would think it is better to interpret that to mean once the final order has been given they do their best to follow through with that order no matter if they agree with it or not.

 

The phrase in the movie was "We genetically modified them to be less independent than the original host"

I liked the version which had Jango be much more independent than average people by nature - a loner - with the modification being, taking this bit out of his genome.

 

As if Clones before Tup never suffered brain damage and got a CAT scan.

 

When Obi Wan goes to Kamino, they think he is there to take delivery. There is no need to upsell them. The Kaminoans simply tell him the truth. They are very transparent with him about what type of beings these are (totally obedient genetically designed lifeforms with the ability to think creatively how to fulfill said orders) and how they grow and raise them.

GL didn't create the notion of chips - it wasn't his original idea hence we didn't see that in the films. The films should take absolute precedence over a show that had its moments, but fails on the basis of trying to cheapen everything for kids. Kids love Star Wars cos it is Star Wars, not when it is made silly with chips, etc. Next they will show Palpatine having a chip inside him to explain his "evilness"!

Rex being different is fine. There are exceptions to the bog standard clone trooper. Some might be trained or raised differently to be able to think more independently as commandos for instance. But the clones being betrayed is a non existent point.

The clones are not betrayed. THEY SIMPLY FOLLOW ORDERS. The Jedi are betrayed.

There is no chip, it makes no sense whatsoever. Even if what you say about Tup is true, how does it explain how he randomly moves to kill a Jedi General?

The whole point is, if the word comes from High Command - and the Chancellor of the Republic is the highest authority - higher than the Jedi Generals to kill the Jedi, or even to kill a fellow trooper or a planetary head of government, then provided that order is legal (as Order 66 was), the troopers will willfully obey it as that is what they were raised to do. They will not question said orders and they don't do it because of some artificial chip. People like Rex might have free will, but normal clone troopers do not. They can only follow legal orders.