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PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Dmasterman, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. Dmasterman

    Dmasterman Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 8, 2008
    So I got around to watching the Clone Wars on Netflix and it was probably by far my favorite season. The goofy-ness was mostly gone, and the plots that intertwined with the series was well made. Though we do learn a very interesting piece of evidence about order 66, that supposedly even the Seperatists notice. That order 66 was actually genetic add on or bacteria strain they put in every clone, to enter a stage of killing the Jedi.


    The fact that one of the genetic defects in one of the clones went off, opened up a vulnerability to this secret and the fact one of the Clones broke ranks and pursued a personal mission to reveal this to the Jedi and the Other clones that they were infected with some sort of mind control.

    Prior to this, in the EU we were told that Order 66 was one of many orders the Clones had, if they had to eliminate the Jedi, or the Senate or even the Chancellor(?) But according to the Clone wars, this appeared to be a ONE and only order, one that only Palpatine/The Sith and the Kaminoians knew of.
    This leads me to believe, Palpatine was going to unleash Order 66 no matter what. Whether he was apprehended, or removed from office. Two words and all Jedi are dead.
     
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    TCW series has it's ups and downs, I find myself enjoying some of the episodes here and there, but once more its a big miss as they decided to make another change to a plot point that was well covered in the novels and comics. It makes sense that if you were growing a clone army you would implant them artificially with military orders, I beleive there was even an order in there about them having to arrest the Chancellor if he somehow betrayed the Republic, which Palpatine knew no one else would ever have the military access to. Order 66 being a "bacteria strain" that is activated by a simple code word...is pretty ridiculous, and not very beleiveable even when you suspend your beleif because you are mixing real-life biological science with pure make beleive. That's not how bacteria works. But everyone (or most people) now have multiple storylines they can enjoy as to the motivation of the clones.

    What you are correct about is that Palpatine had always planned to execute Order 66. It was why he recruited Dooku, and why he and Dooku finally decided on Jango Fett; a proven Jedi killer; as the clone template. Order 66 was the ultimate culmination of the Grand Scheme of the Sith and was loooong in the making. I think he was that there was little chance of him being removed from office, since he had already created a culture of fear and need of security; which him and his army were creating.
     
  3. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    The clones were implanted with "inhibitor chips" that were provided to the Kaminoans by Tyranus. All we know about these chips is that when they malfunction, the clones go crazy and focus obsessively on one task "Kill the Jedi"-which we hear a clone with a malfunctioning chip repeat over and over.

    We know that every clone has one of these chips and they are responsible for Order 66. We also know that when Darth Sidious/Chancellor Palpatine says "Execute Order 66" the clones all give the exact same answer "It will be done my lord" and turn against their trusted Jedi commanders instantly.

    All it takes is the recitation of that phrase by the voice of Palpatine for the clones to automatically turn on the Jedi and kill them. If that isn't brainwashing then I don't know what is. And it makes complete sense to install a failsafe to ensure the clones do their primary function when they're getting so close and friendly with the Jedi.
     
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  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the EU, all the clones that don't obey the order, generally got given it "second hand" by their own commanders, rather than personally by Palpatine.
     
  5. Lord D'arg

    Lord D'arg Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 29, 2013
    I may have interpreted it wrong, but I was under the impression that Sidious/Dooku altered the deal with the clone masters after they had found out Syfo-Dias had ordered the creation of the army. It's believable that they asked for them to be altered with a bacterium which made them go against the Jedi because so many of them were already being created and it would have been a waste.
     
  6. Loupgarou

    Loupgarou Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 19, 2010
    I have a love hate relationship with the Clone Wars show since it jumps back and forth from brilliant to terrible without much rhyme or reason, but i was actually a fan of the episodes you're mentioning. I think it's a fair way to explain how the clones can have so much free will in the show but turn so quickly and easily in the movies. Plus it was heartbreaking to have one of the most recurring and developed clone characters meet their end assumed insane by his allies.

    The real problem is that the movie clones have little to no emotion or character traits. If i had just seen the movies, i'd assume that the clones had no free will from the beginning. But pretty much every EU appearance of clones has them as obviously equal to non-clones in that department. Maybe this explanation is convoluted, but it's better than none at all.
     
  7. Dmasterman

    Dmasterman Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 8, 2008
    I will have to say I personally find this plot to be a deeper and more felt out idea.. That it was a mind control tool that the clones simply couldn't escape.The fact one clone was doing his best to expose this to his fellow clones and the jedi, show that the clones were not some mindless drones that obey orders. They had a sense of right and wrong, they were human. They essentially were trying to protect and save the republic even if it was against their protocol. If order 66 was just some control chip to make sure the clones did it, then they really weren't aware of this order, or the others.

    So at the expense of the other explanations, it it gives an interesting plot.

    But I would ask, if the original plot were canon, that these were all orders the clones were aware of, exactly who could initiate an order to tell the clones to arrest the Chancellor?
     
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  8. Meyerm

    Meyerm Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Aug 17, 2014
    The introduction of the bio chips was probably done to help explain to viewers how the clones, many of which grew attachments to their jedi generals, would turn on them so easily. the clones have different brains than normal humans. They function differently, and it's rather hard to enter the mind of a clone. Hearing "order 66" from Palpatine probably triggered the chips to release a concoction of hormones and the like, altering the clone's perception and giving them the instinctive urge to kill jedi. What better soldiers for the sith than ones wired to subconsciously feel the need to kill jedi. How they worked around a clone's ability to distinguish jedi from sith, however, is beyond me.

    EDIT:

    I'm guessing the senate. They were really just contingency orders as far as the clones knew. They weren't in on the plot. They just knew that order in case of a "what if" scenario.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yes, the bio chip plot was done for the benefit of the viewers who had grown attached to the clones and did not want them to be immoral voluntarily.

    My least favorite arc in season 6 and one of my least favorite altogether. The original scene in ROTS was much creepier.
     
  10. Drewdude91

    Drewdude91 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 21, 2011
    Definite mind control. Even in ROTS, the clones act differently after Order 66 as opposed to before.
     
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  11. Meyerm

    Meyerm Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Aug 17, 2014
    That though could be attributed to their orders. Clones are wired to be obedient. I think martial law was declared in conjunction with order 66, and their orders are to seek and destroy jedi survivors, at the expense of the locals if necessary. Without the jedi to guide them, the clones were left to their own devices, and resorted naturally as a soldier trained their whole life would.
     
  12. Drewdude91

    Drewdude91 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 21, 2011
    Regardless, they lost all their souls pretty much. I think the part of their brain that Order 66 changed also changed their souls.
     
  13. Meyerm

    Meyerm Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Aug 17, 2014
    I think their post-order 66 selves was more or less their deep, inner true selves. During the rest of the war, it was mostly tempered by their subordination to the jedi. Now, I haven't read much related to this, but were there any pre-purge instances where the jedi disapproved of clone brutality? Like, clones terrorizing separatist-aligned civilians to get information or something.
     
  14. Among the Clouds

    Among the Clouds Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 18, 2001
    I like the idea of the inhibitor chips, and I think given how much we grow to like the clones and see them as heroes in TCW, we needed some sort of reason to see why they would do something as heinous as murder their Jedi generals (and friends). The inhibitor chip overwrites their free will when activated and they execute Order 66. The movies didn't really explain this other than that the clones are loyal and carry out their orders as directed. In that light, Order 66 as seen in ROTS is in line with their extreme loyalty, but I don't think the introduction of the inhibitor chips detracts from that at all. If anything, it's adds to the mystery of why they would kill the Jedi.
     
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  15. TX-20

    TX-20 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 21, 2013
    Order 66 was the worst firmware update ever.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    They did something that heinous because they were "genetically modified to obey any order" and they got the order.

    We shouldn't need a reason beyond that simply because the Order 66 scene becomes more horrifying if the audience comes to like the clones.

    In fact I think that would be the point. The Order 66 scene is supposed to be horrifying. And the focus on the "poor clones and their inhibitor chips" takes away from the horror of what happened to the Jedi by putting more onus on the clones as victims.
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Is this a bad thing?

    "the horror of what happened to the clones" - being controlled to destroy those they'd grown to care greatly about - stays horrific whatever's "controlling" them - be it chips, "behavioural conditioning" or "genetic modification".

    The notion that the clones don't want to obey Order 66, that they're being forced to - I'd say adds horror to the whole scene rather than detracting from it. It increases the number of victims.

    The old "contingency order" version - was where the clones genuinely believed the Jedi had become traitors - because that was the information conveyed by the reference to Order 66, and that they're shooting the Jedi because they believe it's the right and moral thing to do.
     
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yes.

    The number of victims does not have to be limited but the focus has changed from the Jedi as victims to the clones as victims. It detracts from the horror of what happened to the Jedi. And the retcon was purely for emotional reasons.

    Which makes for a much, much better story than "awww, poor brainwashed clones."
     
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  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It was also Traviss's take. But then, she didn't see it as horrific, and more "a bunch of slavedrivers getting what they deserve".

    Except maybe for Operation Nightfall and the Jedi younglings.

    The TCW version seems to be less "they're brainwashed, genetically or otherwise" and more "They're controlled, like puppets".
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Traviss' take is pathetic and disgusting but not exactly surprising.

    The idea that the Jedi were betrayed deliberately by the clones they had come to trust was one of the few things I liked about ROTS.
     
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  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Why is it "pathetic and disgusting" to see the clones as slaves, and the Jedi as involved with it?
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Because the Jedi Council never--not once, not even in their wildest imaginations--sat down at a meeting and said "We love slavery. We need slaves. Let's make some slaves."

    Mace Windu was very clear on two things in AOTC: One, that whoever ordered the clone army was NOT acting on the authorization of the Jedi Council, and two, the Jedi did NOT want the war.

    The idea that the Jedi deserved to be murdered because they used the available clone army to try to end the war with Dooku more quickly can only be described as pathetic and disgusting. Hell, that's putting it nicely.

    I know that in the past 15 years or so, there has been a ridiculous effort among a few Star Wars writers to blame the Jedi for everything from the clone army to the housing crisis to the rising price of gas, probably reality TV too, because apparently viewing them as heroes is only for old-school OT fans who don't want to be "taught lessons" or philosophize with their entertainment.

    But the Jedi absolutely were the real victims of Order 66.
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Even Traviss's fans tend to think some of her statements are a bit over the top.

    Still - just because the clone army's "available" doesn't mean that using it doesn't embroil the Jedi somewhat in "ends justify means" morality.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    So the Jedi were supposed to lose the war?

    And why are the real creators and authorizers of the clone army getting less heat than the Jedi?
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That's not something that's guaranteed if they don't use the army. "Commit a wrong in order to avoid a greater wrong" is what they're doing even if it was guaranteed.

    Another poster said it best.
    One of those involved was a Jedi, and not a Sith - Sifo-Dyas. Even the newest works, like the Official Fact File, state that it was he rather than Dooku who placed the order. Maybe not with Yoda or Windu's authority - but he still did so. Suggesting that Jedi are capable of doing it, without being Sith Lords, under the right circumstances.

    If we count the Republic Senate as the "real authorizers of the clone army" they do get as much heat as the Jedi from those critics: