PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Citing Dooku as a source for Sep claims isn't going to win legitimacy points in this debate. Dooku can and will say ANYTHING to further Sidious' plans.

You cannot make legal crimes of that magnitude simply by passing a law allowing them. That was decided conclusively at Nuremberg.

Which only reinforces the ILlegitimacy of the acts.

Nice euphemism, btw..."for their protection"...heh...

The counter argument that fans had was that they shouldn't be expected to read a book, to understand a plot point that wasn't clear in the films.

I'm not claiming that the Republic was perfect. That said, there is no canon evidence that it was a miserable cesspool for it's citizens either.

I'll take our current US government as an example. (Esp since it's obviously what Lucas is taking shots at thematically anyway.)

It is true that the government has it's problems (excessive influence by corporations and rich elites, manipulated political processes, etc), but (like the Republic), it's average citizens still get by (some better than others, obviously), they still go to sports events, the police still protect the streets, families raise children, and so forth.

To say that the only proper way the political problems of the Republic could be solved is by a galaxy-destroying war followed by Imperial tyranny is unconscionable. It is the view of the overly-zealous revolutionary, whose primary interest is not in the greater social good, but rather in tearing down structures to "punish" those whom the zealot feels are "evil/bad/wrong".

 

Tell that to the Patriot Act.

 

Season 2. Slick was Season 1.

In the TCW movie novelization, Rex fakes succumbing to the Mind Trick - and Anakin guesses the position Rex is in from clues Rex has intentionally put into his message.

 

No.

Not an analog. There is an entirely different character between the types of measures in the Patriot act And the widespread imprisonment of an entire population in concentration camps or looting planetary treasuries. The Nazis did both in WW II with the full support of German law and the Nuremburg panels universally rejected the legitimacy of the "but it was legal" defense.

 

1. This is the Galactic Republic, not Nazi Germany.

2. This is part of the problem of the Republic during the final years of its dominance. Thousands of years of peace and prosperity can be undone because a Sith Lord exploited the government, which had become a mess of epic proportions. So long as the crime cannot be proven, then everything will be kosher. Hence Maul being sent to find Padme and the actions in the Senate that Palpatine orchestrated.

Not quite as many sided with the Federation and their constitutes.

Actually, it was for Nute's and Rune's protection.

It's not about punishing anyone. The dark side had clouded not only the Jedi's vision, but that of the common man. They couldn't see that they were being manipulated by a Sith Lord into handing over their freedoms for security, which is a common theme in dictatorship. They were willing to place their faith in one man to save them from the big bad universe and they did so, because they had let themselves become complacent. Sometimes we need a spark, a motivation to pull ourselves up. What it is will vary. In this case, the Republic was so tainted that it took the actions of Palpatine taking control for them to see the truth. That's why we went from thousands cheering Palpatine's declaration of a new order to the Senate throwing its weight behind a bunch of rebels. Alderaan had been the final straw.

 

Nothing in the films hints towards the common man being clouded by the dark side. The Jedi admit that their powers have diminished. darth-sinister likes to use big words whose meaning he doesn't know to make it seem like his points are valid.

 

The films show that the people are blind, because there is such a strong support for Palpatine and his decisions that he becomes Emperor, as the people want someone to take care of the problems that they face. Something which Lucas speaks of quite often in his interviews and commentaries. Only those who side with the Confederacy believed otherwise, but they were too powerless to do anything once the war ended. And others wound up siding with Palpatine in the new order. It took fifteen years of oppression for the galaxy to start to turn on them and another five years for Palpatine to start losing support.

 

For the average citizen, that's fine. But the dark side is a real thing in-universe, and it was interfering with Jedi perception to some extent. And it's at least possible that Palpatine was influencing the Senators through the Force ( though they easily could have just been manipulated in the mundane way like the general populace ).

 

I think palpatine had it installed into Their brains when they were being made


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I liked this arc even though it ruined the continuity that happened in the novel Dark Lord The Rise of Darth Vader by Luceno. There was an interesting plot theme in there with some clones being conflicted with the order to kill their Jedi comrades and eventually having to do so against their will, otherwise Vader was going to raise hell on them.

 

The newcanon book Tarkin actually references that plot theme in passing - with Vader recalling his previous mission to Murkhana (one of his first) to carry out an execution).

My view is "Only people who Palpatine has personally ordered (by hologram) "Execute Order 66" are compelled to obey."

The clones in Dark Lord that let the Jedi go, weren't ordered to kill them by Palpatine, but by their clone commander. While clones are exceedingly obedient to clone commanders - it's not as compulsive an obedience.

 

Good point...."The newcanon book Tarkin actually references that plot theme in passing - with Vader recalling his previous mission to Murkhana (one of his first) to carry out an execution)"

This new canon thing is already sounding like a bunch of nonsense...how is a "new canon" book referencing "a non canon book" (legend)?

In my opinion this canonizing nonsense is stupid (other than the films and TV shows)...let artist play with Star Wars let the fans decide what is canon for themselves...each individual...we don't need an official canon...fans seem to always be on step ahead of all these hired help tha are suppose to be keeping track of this stuff

 

Because it's the same author - Luceno wrote Dark Lord, Cloak of Deception, and now Tarkin - it makes sense for him to drop little references to his own work.

 

like I said...this clean up job is already a mess...nothing against Luceno...he's a god in my eyes...

 

When I first saw ROTS, I thought that Order 66 was mind control.

 

Of course it was as I saw in "SW:TCW" one clone suspected something was up with the rest of them and then he found out about those control chips in their heads but unfortunately he was killed before he could even tell the Jedi

 

I think in the movies it wasn't mind control, but the clones being conditioned to obey without question.

In the novels and the TV series it was probably due to the bio-chip in their heads, but, you have to ask yourself...if those people has enough free will that the chip was necessary to make them obey, wouldn't they be pissed afterwards? Did Palpatine keep the chip "on" for the rest of their lives?

 

I don't like this mind control retcon, it doesn't really fit well with the films. In AOTC the clones had a sinister air about them, the ending with them martching to the imperial march and flying off to war was very foreboding. Order 66 at least how the films were originally made was supposed to show the clones' true colors, that they are ruthless thugs like their host, Jango. The Sith picked a hired thug like Jango for a reason to clone, which means the clones are not going to be the nicest guys. Even the cloners stated that the clones are made to obey orders without question (no need for mind) and we see they meant it with order 66. Really the characterization of the clones in TCW doesn't mach how they are portrayed in the films. TCW just differs from the films in many areas including order 66. As far as the films go, order 66 was just another order to obey without question. In the film they do not go berserk, they claimly execute their order quickly with no remorse afterwards, hardly mind control.

 

The guy who opened fire on his superior officer before the end of the clone wars, in TCW, specifically had a faulty chip though.

And, just as identical twins can have different personalities, so clones can have different personalities.

 

Identical twins aren't genetically modified. In the movies it was already established that the Clones are "totally obedient" unless engineered otherwise; they didn't need any microchips to obey direct orders.
Also, I had the impression that the Orders were secretly taught to all the clones from the start. The clones were solely created and designed to infiltrate and destroy the Jedi ranks - it's a bit stupid to have to go through all that trouble to find the best bounty hunters and cloners when you can stick on a microchip into every republic citizen or Jedi and control them from there.
And I don't know why it's so hard to believe the clones can attack on their own volition. They're not the most cuddly people, and the chain of command never belonged to the Jedi. They never "betrayed" the Jedi, they just finally completed their true mission after years of waiting.

 

I figured that their obedience had less to do with genetic engineering, and more to do with training - having been trained from birth. After all, there isn't much evidence of "genes for perfect obedience" in real life, so why should there be some in Star Wars? "We modified them to make them less independent than the original host" is what was said.

The TCW decision to subvert, to a degree, the claims for their obedience - showing clone deserters, etc, is unusual - but the idea that the Kaminoans would exaggerate a bit didn't seem all that unrealistic to me.

For a real-world example of a being that has been "genetically engineered for obedience" (through 10,000 years of selective breeding, rather than direct modification - take dogs. More obedient than wolves - but not necessarily perfectly obedient - and training and upbringing still matter a lot.

 

I look at the desertion the same way that I do Dorsk 81 in the old EU. At some point, aberrations happen. Just because the Kaminoans were damn good doesn't mean that they were perfect.