PT Order 66 was just mind control?

I wasn't a member of Hyperspace, so I don't have much of what Pablo said. Most of what I do have from him was given to me by others and not about the clones.

That was touched upon in the novel, "Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader" where a few Clonetroopers didn't believe that Order 66 had been given by Palpatine and thus let three Jedi go. They were later terminated by Vader. In continuity, well, before it could be issue, these three had the chips removed.

Why are Obi-wan's robes different in ROTS to ANH? Why are the Lightsabers missing the red buttons and the clip, which has been replaced with a D-ring? What happened to the dice hanging in the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon? Why does Vader's helmet's design change between films? Why is Yoda wearing a belt in the OT, but not the PT? Why is Anakin's scar by his right eye missing in ROTJ? Why does the Falcon have forward blasters in ROTJ, but not in the previous two films? Why is the cockpit of the Falcon larger? Where did the steering sticks come from? Why do the Lightsaber blades have a pointed tip in TCW and ROTS, but not the other films?

 

C'mon now Darth... as I said before in another thread I love reading your posts so... I know, you know better than that. There is a difference between errors in filming continuity, and plot lines not meshing.

One of the major plot lines of TCW is clone individuality, we aren't talking about props from one film to the next not being the exact same, things that mean nothing to the plot.

With the clones one of the main, recurring themes in TCW was they were becoming more and more like individuals. They were developing personalities, and they were expressing their personalities on their armor, in their hair cuts, and with tatoo's. That is intentional to make a point within the story, not continuity errors in film making and props.

The answer is that the plots that were developed in TCW don't mesh with the plots developed in the movies. It's really that simple. They changed it after the fact, after ROTS, and it doesn't match, and they didn't feel the need to find a happy meium to explain why all of a sudden we don't get a single clone with a custom helmet...

If you choose to ignore that, and try to find some way around it, then that is your choice, but, for some of us it is too much.

 

My point about props is that when it comes to Clonetrooper armor differences between TCW and ROTS, it doesn't matter because it has gone on before. Not to mention that we don't see all the clones without their helmets on. We see Cody and his unit with their helmets off, but we don't see the 501st with their helmets off. Nor the other units with their helmets off. Personalities, well, in ROTS, we only see Cody really talking to Obi-wan. Rex is gone and Anakin never really talked to Appo the way he did Rex in the show. The other clones can be excused since we don't see much of the Jedi individually in the films. Mostly in the background with Ki-Adi being the only other one to talk. Ergo, we don't see the other clones with them that much either.

 

But, your using things that are errors, done unintentionally and comparing them to elements that are part of the plot, done intentionally. Apples to oranges.

Again, when ROTS was done, how Lucas looked at the clones was they were stormtroopers, they really had very little to no individuality, but that changed after ROTS. So in TCW we get numerous clones, including in the 501st that customize their helmets, and we see nothing of that sort with the dozens of clones we see in ROTS.. We do see numerous clones of the 501st, no customization.

I commend you for trying to find that in universe answer that will fix my issues with TCW, but, they simply aren't there. To me, when there are these contradictions, the simple answer will always default back to what Lucas told Henry Gilroy:

When it came to TCW Lucas was not "married to the movies", that means contradictions, that means there were going to be times where he didn't feel the need to be constrained by his own movies, told the other people not to be constrained by the movies, and that means when they wanted to do something that might contradict the movie, they didn't feel the need to explain it.

I'm just not feeling it Darth...

 

Honestly, this is just as foolish as making The Separatist Council "neutral."

 

me too and so did my father

 

According to TCW..yes.

 

Dat 3 year necro tho

 

The Separatist Council wasn't neutral. That would be ridiculous.

 

But that's how it is according to TCW in the eyes the of public...



I would go with it but it was so poorly handled IMO, that I just can't...its moronic and one of the many reasons why I don't consider TCW cannon fully.
Also why the Filoni as head of Lucasfilm rumors don't (personally) make me feel optimistic. He would be an upgrade from KK for sure, but I'm not convenced by this at all.

 

Again, the Separatist Council isn't neutral. You didn't pay attention to the video you posted.

 

@The_Phantom_Calamari No, I did not. The Separatist Leaders that Vader kills on Mustafar ARE considered neutral by Republic citizens due to "lack" of proof otherwise according to the video. Which goes along with Bibble's statement in AOTC: It's outrageous! After four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is still the viceroy of the Trade Federation! I feel the Senate is powerless to resolve this crisis.

Now how things are set up in Senate Spy and having Padmè go to Cato Neimoidia of all places after what happens in TPM...I find the whole concept idiotic and a waste of story...how I see it therefore, not cannon to me. Same with the Clone issue discussed here.

Back on topic...

YESSS...took the words from me @anakinfansince1983, thank you. We may not agree often, but its refreshing when we do.

 

No, they're not. If you watched TCW, in particular the episode you just mentioned, you'd know that it's a specific plot point that Nute Gunray is claimed to be a radical who broke off from the Trade Federation proper to join with the Separatists. Wat Tambor openly leads a Separatist campaign on Ryloth in the series and is targeted by the Republic for capture. Poggle the Lesser is a wanted being who must conspire with Lott Dod secretly. The Separatist Council is never depicted as neutral at any point in the series. It's the Separatist Council.

You're confusing the actual state of affairs, which is that commerce entities like the Trade Federation still officially claim to be neutral early on in the war, while still secretly supporting the Separatists through back-channels. There's nothing inherently illogical about this. Nute Gunray signed a treaty with Count Dooku and pledged a bunch of the Trade Federation's resources to the Separatists, but that doesn't mean the rest of the Trade Federation went along with it. The Trade Federation's whole deal is that they want to maximize profit in whatever way possible. The best way to do that is to play both sides. It sure would be nice if the Separatists won and instituted Free Trade Zones throughout the galaxy....but what if the Separatists lose? The Republic wouldn't look too kindly on the Trade Federation in the aftermath, that's for sure. Can anyone say "nationalization"?

The Trade Federation wants to have it both ways, and the Republic is willing to let it have its neutrality so long as it doesn't directly support the Separatist war effort. The alternative is that the Trade Federation, with its overwhelming monopoly on the galaxy's trading infrastructure, takes its ball and goes fully over to the Separatists. That wouldn't be good for the Republic.

But what becomes increasingly clear over the course of the series is that the Trade Federation isn't willing to respect the terms of this delicate arrangement. The temptation to break the rules and give direct aid to the Separatist war effort is too strong.

 

@The_Phantom_Calamari I get what your saying, but I don't particularly care about how TCW, basically turned the war into a "modern day affair" and nearly retcons what we were told from 2002 -2005. In fact I found 95% of the political episodes annoying...and this coming from someone who finds politics fascinating in a lot aspects as a study of human nature. Had it been handled better, I would feel different..it just wasn't in my opinion.

 

I find it kind of interesting how divided some people still are over The Clone Wars. The show arguably has more of a claim to the legacy considering it was overseen broadly by Lucas himself. But the earlier stuff created such a vivid portrayal of the Clone Wars that anything that deviated from that seemed weird.

 

For me the chip works.
Yeah, the clones were designed to obey and probably were taught about the order(s) since before birth, but that learned programming isn't a sure thing. They are soldiers. Many things happen in a battle and who can say that no clone ever hit his head hard enough to forget about this special teaching/programming?

To make sure that the order would went live without x clones standing on the battlefield musing about if Order 66 means to get a coffee-to-go or killing the Jedi, Palps would have to send the clones regularly back to Kamino for a check-up. Without injuries, just to check that they are ok. The explanation behind these checks would surely raise questions, while the check-ups could have let to someone getting in on Palp's game.

 

But here is the thing,

In AotC, the Kamino people say that the clones have been modified genetically to obey orders without question and be less independent. And they mention that they have made clone armies in the past.

So making obedient clone armies is not a new thing for them.
So did all of those other armies have these chips as well?
If they didn't and they never refused orders, what need is there for the chip?
If they didn't and some did disobey orders and thus they came up with the chips to supplement the genetic modification, ok but was this unique to the republic army? And why didn't they mention this to Obi-Wan?

If they did have chips as well then wouldn't the Kamino people mention this to Obi-Wan?
They did not seem to lie to him or try to deceive him, as a Jedi, he might have picked up on that.
An if other armies have been made with these chips, then the Jedi might hear about it.

And did the Kamino people know about the end goal for the clone army, to wipe out the Jedi?
If they did, that is risky as if even one blabs about it, word could get out. And again, Obi-Wan sensed nothing bad from them when he was there.
If they didn't know and "Sifo-Dyas" just insisted on these chips but was also adamant about NOT saying anything about it to the Jedi, that looks odd.

The simplest explanation is what AotC says, the clones obey orders without question and they can never, ever refuse. So if they are ordered to slaughter babies, they would obey without question.
And the jedi know this.

Other thing, you mention training, the clone obey orders without question and they obey the Jedi.
How would they know who is a Jedi and who isn't?
Were they shown pictures of all current Jedi during their training to know who to obey?
And with order 66, this also becomes important, if they don't know a person is a Jedi, they would not kill him/her as the order concerns only Jedi.
Now the Jedi out in the field are easy, the clones know them.
But others they have never met?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

As far as I am aware and going by movie canon only and the way it was originally intended, then Order 66 was what it says on the tin. An executive order. And that is it. It isn't a "chip." There really isn't any reason to question it. In fact it's brilliant. Terrible yes, but incredibly intelligent.

Clones can think creatively. You will find them immensely superior to droids.

They are totally obedient and will obey any order without question.

The Clone troopers (who will become Clone Stormtroopers upon Declaration of Empire in ROTS) are simply clone troopers. They have been modified to be humans with no independent will other than to obey orders without question. They simply follow a command chain.

The Jedi Order become Generals of the Grand Army of the Republic. However, the highest in the command chain is the Supreme Chancellor who outranked the Jedi on the ground. Had Palpatine been removed from office, then no one issues Order 66, and no Jedi are fired upon. However, since the Jedi attempt fails, the Chancellor simply issues Order 66 - an executive order, whereby if the Chancellor deems the Jedi to have acted against the interests of the Republic (and it is only their determination that is required), they will issue said order to the Grand Army to use lethal force to remove a Jedi General from command. Note lethal force.

Clone troopers obey orders. Whether it be their their Clone Commander, their Jedi General, or the Supreme Chancellor (who outranks everyone), they will obey any order without question. Whether that be to jump and hop on one leg. Or to carry out Order 66 - to kill (use lethal force against) their Jedi Generals.

Clones don't feel malice, they don't "think" whether an order is right, or wrong. They simply obey orders. They will only think creatively how to fulfil said order. They don't think, "is this order right?" or "Who would I rather serve, the Jedi or the Chancellor?" or such things. They carry out their orders. That is what the Grand Army is.

Thus the Chancellor issues Order 66, one of the executive orders at his disposal, and the Grand Army carries it out. Palpatine obviously showcases the "Jedi Rebellion" with his usual creative machinations to the Senate and the galaxy as the Jedi are labelled Enemies of the Republic.

But that's just it. The Jedi are deemed Enemies of the Republic, and the Clone Army are instructed to fire upon their Jedi Generals. As demonstrated by the incredibly moving scene in ROTS. They aren't under mind control. This isn't some temporary lapse of control where they feel regret. They just carried out their order and that's it. They don't have free will. That is the entire point. Now whether there are certain special forces commando clones who are altered to have free will (I believe in certain games you have ARC troopers or indeed Rise of Darth Vader highlights a Commando Clone unit which temporarily stuns regular Clone Units thinking its a Separatist trick), but the majority of the Grand Army are just normal clone troopers who will do whatever the chain of command tells them. (Note in Rise of Darth Vader, the regular clones and the Clone Commander don't even hesitate to kill the Jedi who lead them). Going by film canon only though, the clones are clearly defined and explained in AOTC and ROTS.

The Clone Wars is a television show so has to be taken with a pinch of salt. I would venture to say that if it fits with film canon, that individual clones (very few in an army of millions) may have some independence to fulfil certain roles like specialist commanders or commandos, but the others will fire upon the Jedi and not even think twice. The Clones are not politicians, philosophers or Jedi. They are troops loyal absolutely to the command chain of the Republic.

Had the Jedi removed the Chancellor from office, and formed a Jedi junta, as appeared to be the plan in ROTS, then the Jedi (ultimately the Jedi Council who Commander Cody is seen reporting to) will be the highest point of the command chain. The Jedi could effectively rule the Republic with their command of the Grand Army.

Order 66 is meant to highlight how the Jedi are ultimately betrayed in the most tragic of ways. How Palpatine outplayed them politically. Note how Palpatine first gains emergency powers, and gains upper hand over the Senate. The remaining obstacles are:
1. The Jedi Order - he removes them with Order 66
2. The Separatists who could pose a military threat - he dispatches Lord Vader to wipe out their leadership and order the Droid Army to stand down

His journey to unlimited power is thus complete. And the tragedy of Order 66 is done. Any remaining Jedi not in the presence of clone troops, or who survived will simply be hunted down by that same Clone Army.

Note how the Clones attack the Jedi at the Jedi Temple. That isn't mind control. That is them carrying out their orders to eliminate the Jedi who have become a threat to the Republic. The platform where Bail Organa lands, the Clones openly fire upon the Jedi Knight. When Obi Wan and Yoda return to the Jedi Temple, the Clone platoon doesn't hesitate to fire upon the Jedi (though they are all dispatched very cooly by Yoda).

Order 66 is an Executive Order. It all came down to that moment.

EVERY SINGLE JEDI...IS NOW AN ENEMY OF THE REPUBLIC.

That novel was excellent and I hope they make that into a film. In fact that novel sticks to movie canon. It shows very clearly how the normal clones in the Grand Army do not even hesitate, or question to obey their orders. The Jedi's Clone Commander immediately starts issuing orders to all the troops to kill the Jedi. At least one is killed who is in the presence of clones. The remaining three happen to be on a mission of their own, thus they wait to ambush the Jedi. However the Clone Commandos appear to be clones with some degree of independence versus the regular army. That is the only reason why they hesitate. They still don't side with the Jedi, they simply question it. And pay the price later. All other clone troopers who become clone stormtroopers are shown throughout the novel, like the films, to obey orders without question as the Republic transforms into the Empire. E.g. later the Clone garrison attempts to apprehend the Jedi trying to hack into the Jedi Temple remotely. They attack Kashykk etc. These are clones following orders, not mind control.

I think that's what makes Vader's March on the Jedi Temple so terrifying as well. The might of the Republic has been turned upon the Jedi Order.

 

I don't Sound that all that was said in AOTC was wrong or is overwritten by the Biochip. The clones followed every order. What I mean is that the chip is like a security Code:

Palps could risk no failure. If only one percent of the clones fail or even think before acting, the outcome could be a disaster.
Palps is too smart to trust the marketingsprech of the Kaminoans. Is there any cloning programm that could be used as reference? (I'm not that familar with all the EU). Probably He even expected that some clones become friends/allies with their generals. An additional chip that ensures that THAT order gets live fits.

And I still think that noch genetic programming or teachings like the clones got, helps with medical failure. Who says that a minor concussion (something that probably every clone got) won't effect the brainpart that got altered by the Kaminoans?
Vader's march on the temple would look rather stupid with clones who can't remember the order.

The nightmares are a different thing in my book. I understood them as nightly learning and the programming by the Kaminoans. I think the clones call them nightmares, because they don't get what the really are. They probably weren't conciously tought it.

For me those scenes in ROTS are harder to watch after TCW. The chip means an additional switch and one that strip the last bit of free will off them. In one second they went from beings to mindless things. What makes them even less than the Unsullied from GOT.
For me even the betrayel weights more. The Jedi were betrayed by those they fought with and the clones by those who paid for their creation and the system they thought to protect.


And yes, I pity the clones and think of them as victims. I don't like the cloningstuff and use of them. But that's for another thread.

 

It's explained in season six that the biochip was kept a secret from the Jedi because it was in the event the Jedi turned on the Republic, which coincidentally is what happens in ROTS.

TYRANUS: "I've been expecting your transmission. I have heard of the malfunctioning clone. How widespread is the problem?"

LAMA SU: "It seems to be an isolated incident. However, this is a delicate situation. We need to terminate the clone as soon as possible in order to extract and analyze the inhibitor chip that you provided to us."

TYRANUS: "Very good. Terminate the clone immediately. However, send the chip to me for analysis."

LAMA SU: "And what if the Jedi ask for the chip and the results of the autopsy?"

TYRANUS: "You must remember the chip is a safeguard against betrayal from rogue Jedi. Master Syfo-Dias was the only Jedi who knew of this. But with his passing, we alone know of this secret, and you must keep it that way."

LAMA SU: "Yes, Lord Tyranus."

The chip was provided by Dooku, in order to ensure total obedience when it came time to initiate Protocol 66. At present, the Jedi are only aware of a tumor that is located in the cerebellum and that it appears benign, but Shaak Ti wanted to scan deeply which would expose the truth that the tumor hid the chip. Lama Su lies about what happened to Tup, by claiming it was a possible virus that the Confederacy used. But when Rex heard enough of the story, he and two others had it removed without the Jedi, the Sith or the Kaminoans knowing of it.

Well, they're told that anyone using a Lightsaber and dressing in Jedi robes are Jedi. Not to mention that they'd be introduced to each Jedi General and Commander as the war went on. That's the war had to go on for as long it did, in order to ensure that when it was initiated, it would not completely fail. This is why there was probably an 85% casualty rate by the time it was all said and done.

 

I don't think the clones would feel any remorse after the act. They just followed orders. I don't think the films hint at anything other than what was shown on screen. An army of totally obedient trained soldiers that can be produced (over time), which are superior to droids because they can think somewhat more creatively how to execute said order. An army that will ensure that the will of the future Emperor will be enforced. An army that will be surrounding their isolated Jedi Generals on the battlefield and not hesitate. No chips. Just executive orders, a command chain and a political game that the evil (depending on your point of view) Chancellor Palpatine managed to outplay the Jedi Order in. He almost failed (Windu almost killed him), but thanks to Anakin's betrayal (the title of the soundtrack), Palpatine survived and had the perfect excuse to legitimise the command that he was about to issue. To the public the Jedi would appear to have rebelled against the helpless Chancellor. The Army would be ordered to hunt down and eliminate the threat of this "Jedi Rebellion." And that is what happened.

 

The OT was partially inspired by the then political climate.

Lucas: Anakin Skywalker starting hanging out with the Emperor, who at this point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official.

Kasdan: Was he a Jedi?

Lucas: No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the Senate and finally took over and became an Imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy. He sucked Luke’s father into the dark side.

--Return Of The Jedi story meeting transcripts, 1981.


One of the larger issues that surfaced in the telling of Anakin's fall to the dark side and his rise to becoming a corrupt figure was that of the fall of democracy at the hands of the very people who initially fought oppression.

"You have the personal issue of Anakin and his turn to the dark side, but then the children later bring him back to being a human being," Lucas says. "But the larger issue is that you've given up your democracy, and that the bad guys never took it -- it was handed to them. That theme was there 30 years ago which came out of the Vietnam War and Nixon wanting to change the rules so he could get a third term."

"I'm a big history buff and I was really into Caesar at the time," Lucas recalls. "I always wanted to know why the Roman Senate gave Caesar's nephew a dictatorship after they had gotten rid of Caesar. Why after the revolution in France did they create an Emperor? Why did the Germans after they had a Democracy after World War I, turn it into a dictatorship? Those were my initial questions 30 years ago."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Homing Beacon #142.

The Separatist Council and the Separatist leadership was an extension of the kinds of themes that Lucas was exploring.

The Clonetroopers did feel remorse. It wasn't expressed in ROTS, but it was talked about in "Rebels", in "The Last Padawan" mini-series and in other publications. In the second story, Grey and Styles debate over killing Depa Billaba and Grey felt remorse over killing a friend.

 

It's an organic chip that makes them susceptible to following orders. We really have no reason to doubt the Kaminoans referring to it as an inhibitor chip. I don't think there's any evidence in the episodes to suggest that they are some kind of "Jedi killing programming." It's really one of the better Clone Wars story arcs, along with two or three others.

"Fives" and "Tupp" talk about their nightmare, which may be linked to some early age brain washing of a scenario where they have to fight the Jedi, or rogue Jedi. I don't see any contradiction with the chips. I haven't seen the Rebels episodes though.

 

It made things logical and sensical, and fortunately it wasn't bound to what was done in the EU.