PT Order 66 was just mind control?

But that is EXACTLY what they are though..they were built for the sole purpose of committing genocide and promoting Iron will in the end as well as bankrupt the Republic morally and financially...that is what makes it down right SCARY. When 16 I imagined Jason Bourne training for the Clones after the growth acceleration process was done to enhance their Jango traits and Jango is no white flower; infact the clones don't seen friendly it all when Kenobi sees them have a meal in AOTC...They have been being produced for ten years behind the Jedi's back, with presumably Jedi funding ...the viewer knowing that they were the future stormtroopers back then while Palpy is putting his best Noah Cross face to pass the MCA because HIS Army is ready, ITS SCARY AND CREEPY AS HELL! To have episodes like The Deserter giving Clones free will to the point Order 66 becomes a choice(in the case of Rex by removing the damn chip) not only undermines every point I've stated above IMHO, its F&%$@!! ridiculous because as @Blackhole E Snoke already stated, the Clones are Sidious's tool of destruction.

Its not a documentary on the morality of cloning itself what we have in the movies people …

"I'm sorry sir, it's time for you to leave."​

its right up there in the chills factor with..

"Wipe them out ...all of them."

​

 

But Jason Bourne, had a personality and free will...

Clones such as Cody definitely had a personality in the movies and weren't cold blooded killers. The Genetic Chip makes a lot of sense in an army of millions of clones the chances of them all following orders even with all these "genetic modifications" are highly likely. We even see in the new Vader comic that the Chips are very very powerful as a jedi uses them against the ex-jedi, inquisitors on the last batch of clones who as such attempt to murder their force sensitive allies.
And they aren't the future stormtroopers though, in both the canon and legends they were phased out by non-clone soldiers. As far in canon as I know only 3 clones removed their chips besides Fives, those being: Rex, Gregor, and Wolfe.

Sidious had many tools of destruction? The clones were necessarily evil in the movies either? They just followed orders by your logic? which I just can't see any large group of people all doing without some kind of reason. If I served in way my whole life with my general (that was a great general and I bonded a lot with) than all the sudden got orders to kill them. I'd be hesitant to say the least, especially since it was a straight up execution, without a trial or a reason.

 

But they (troopers) are already genetically engineered to act like that! Why have an implanted device that does exactly the same thing? Something that can malfunction. Its because TCW went against what the clones were, changed them from being genetically engineered and programmed soldiers designed for specific roles, and turned them into regular people who train to be soldiers and then make friends with Jedi and young children. That is why they suddenly have to be seen as victims too in order 66 "They are good really, they are just being forced to do these terrible things by a device". NO they are meant to be machines of war. They will give their life to protect someone if ordered to. They will gladly take on suicidal missions, but if ordered, they will happily murder the same person they were earlier protecting and think nothing of it.

I think if a defective clone got past the screening they would have a chance of disobeying order 66 if they had come to care about their Jedi general rather than their orders. Darman for example I think had to be defective in this way. Maybe commandos had a higher probability of being this way?

 

@Blackhole E Snoke Why not use Droids at this point? Why even use clones. Sure they were genetically altered, but I highly doubt you can remove personality from people. Modern psychology doesn't exactly even know where personality totally comes from. In my mind and from evidence, I see that the genetic modifications made them more docile and less independent than the original Jango Fett and accelerated their aging.

And if they were so mindless drones? why not continue to use them into the empire even in old legends Sidious was starting to phase them out in the late stages of the clone wars by non-clones and other clone templates?

Oh they very much are victims to Order 66. It gave many of them even more PTSD as they were not being able to control their actions and killed who they viewed as comrades in the process. As such they were quickly retired and forgotten by the empire and the galaxy. Just becoming a "Forgotten Generation"

 

You are talking about TCW. I chose to remove TCW from legends. I'm talking about before TCW (preferably before Karen Travis's too). What the clones originally were. I never said they were mindless drones either, droids are not mindless either. And why use clones instead of droids? Because they could? What's the saying? There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

Even before the first Republic Commando novel came out, clones were being portrayed as being very much human.

 

<----This guy didn't know you were an expert in the SW version of cloning.

The chip does not make them do terrible things; it makes them more susceptible to following orders, less defiant(like Jango), more obedient. Perhaps there's another chip that accelerates their aging. It's not an electronic device, nor a computer chip, but an alteration to their brain.

 

LAMA SU: "They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."

He said nothing about their personalities being affected. And as ROTS showed, the clones were friendly with the Jedi. See Obi-wan and Cody's banter. The Jedi and the Clonetroopers were friendly long before TCW came along. The only thing the biochip does is explain why they're less independent and would be totally obedient when Order 66 was initiated. They're not evil. They never were. They were just tools for the Sith.

 

So the clone troopers were genetically engineered to be less independent and totally obedient. But they also need a biochip to make them less independent and totally obedient and if it malfunctions the clone freaks out. Makes perfect sense .

I also never said clones couldn't be friendly. Bly and Ayala Secura were very close in the Republic comics, but he shot her in the back when ordered to because he was engineered to follow that order. There wasn't something foreign making him murder Ayala. It was him, and how his brain functioned, he chose to murder her because his brain was designed that way. He was a dangerous weapon. Not evil no, but not someone you should call a friend and trust. TCW changed this so the clones were good people who were forced to do something against their will. It is a big difference.

 

One of the few things I like about the New Disney Canon is that The Clone Wars are canon and the old comics aren't.

 

Clone Wars omnibuses + novels + Republic Commando + PT > Star Wars: TCW + PT.

 

Absolutely concur with your points. There is no need for chips. It is all perfectly explained in the movie. The clones are genetically designed creations. They are created at an accelerated pace, trained in combat and to obey any orders without question. They are not normal human beings with free will. That was the entire point.

Order 66 is just an executive order. Palpatine as Supreme Chancellor is the commander in chief. He outranks the Jedi. The order is about eliminating (by force) the Jedi Generals, who are outranked by Palpatine. If the Jedi coup/arrest had succeeded, then the Order never gets issued. But it is, and the clones fire upon the Jedi without any hesitation.

The order is wilfully executed as demonstrated by the clone commanders immediately acknowledging said order, and organising their troops to carry it out. They don't flinch, or react with any hesitation. If the Jedi Generals had ordered the Clone Troops to hop on one knee for a mile, they would all do it, without asking. That's the entire point of the Clone Army.

The Troops at the Jedi Temple, carry out their orders. You see them warn off Bail Organa during their handling of this "Rebellion." And they don't hesitate to fire on the Jedi who appears in the scene.

The clones are not victims. The Jedi are. And exactly that what you said. Had the Jedi Knight just saved their life during a battle against those droids, and then the same Clone Trooper received Order 66 in his headset, the clone wouldn't hesitate to obey that order.

The Clone Troopers serve the Republic, not the Jedi Temple. The Jedi are part of that command chain. The Chancellor outranks them. And with Order 66, he orders the Troopers to execute those Jedi Generals on sight. The Jedi were declared Enemies of the Republic. Any surviving Jedi will still be executed on sight, unless orders are given to the contrary.

 

Well, no, they have limited free will. They're not completely robotic. If they obeyed any order, they would obey orders from Grievous or Ventress to attack the Jedi now...instead of later, or a rogue Jedi wants to kill innocent civilians. Lucas and Filoni realized this during the making of TCW. The Battle of Umbara showed that the Clonetroopers can disobey orders, if the orders do not make sense and runs contrary to both the Jedi and Republic's interests. But they must obey with Order 66 and that leads us to the biochip, which ensures that they do obey.

The biochip is what makes them obedient and less independent...particularly with Protocol 66.

 

That arc and the Chip arc really did show us they were good at hunting and attacking jedi...

 

I like the arc before it, where Ashoka goes on the run. It's like Coruscant has slowly transformed into a police state, and we are now seeing the fruits of Palpatine's war, and the clones are relentless Jedi hunters.

 

Oh that arc best illustrated how the Republic was turning into the empire in literally every way. And was amazing at showing not telling.

 

"They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."
―Lama Su, to Obi-Wan Kenobi

Of coarse the clones have some free will, especially the commandos, commanders and ARCs. They knew who to take orders from. A basic trooper though shouldn't have been ever questioning an order, certainly not one from a jedi general. An ARC trooper would probably want his order to make sense to him and might ask for an explanation if the order didn't make sense in regards to completing the current mission. But if the Jedi went dark and gave an ARC a mission to murder younglings, the ARC trooper would do it without regret.

The most stupid thing TCW changed was having basic troopers get promoted to ARC troopers. That is like having a pistol and sticking a label on it saying .50 machine gun.

Basically TCW ignored EpII and reduced the genetically engineered aspect of the clones down to just increased ageing.

I can't remember which legends book it was in, but I remember reading how clones created for different jobs even looked different. For example, pilots being shorter and stockier than troopers to better deal with high G forces.

 

In legends canon by ep3 most pilots had become non-clones, especially the pilots taking part in the battle of Coruscant. In fact many troops in many battalions had been phased out from non-jango fett clones or to non-clones totally (we especially see this on the bridge of the Venator at the end of the movie). These non-clones and new non-jango clones were used to fill a lot of the ranks in the diminished clone army.

I don't get how you don't consider the inhibitor chips genetic engineering? It was what made them follow such strict orders:
"Control chips, also known as inhibitor chips, were a type of organic bio-chip capable of dictating or responding to the thoughts of its host. Kaminoan cloners implanted them within each clone trooper in the Grand Army of the Republic. It was implanted into the brain of every trooper at the third stage of their embryonic development. When they were activated the troopers responded to orders without question, allowing the Supreme Chancellor to initiate Order 66."

The chips were genetically engineered and placed in the "units" at an early stage. The purpose of Lama Su's quote is to say they'll be totally obedient when order 66 happens. The top Kaminoans knew full well what the army had been created for and just were playing their part in it.

In canon Clone Commando's have taken the job of the Arc Troopers and I see nothing wrong with letting the average joe clone trooper being able to be promoted to ARC trooper, many militaries have this today to have combat experience before you even try to apply to special forces.

 

Well to create a bio chip would require genetic engineering. The bio chip would be genetically engineered. But if you put that chip into a clone, it doesn't add to the clone's genetics. Genetic engineering is the modification of DNA.

 

Surely some amount of DNA modification was needed so the Clone's bodies accepted the biochip as part of their body and didn't reject it. Also the Clone DNA was probably genetically engineered so the chip was connected with oxygen and other nourishment to grow along with the Clone. The chips in the adult clones look too big to have been implanted at that size.

 

Episode 2-
LAMA SU: "They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."

TCW-
Rex: What is it?
Fives: Organic chips, built into our genetic code, to make us do whatever someone wants...even kill the Jedi.

 

Coincidentally, I'm rewatching season 2 of the clone wars rn... and am on The Deserter. This is episode speaks so much of this discussion: On Cut's many quotes with Rex about their individuality and duty as clones:

Cut (the Deserter): "yes, well, you and I may be clones, but we're still individuals. You have a name rather than a number captain. Why is that?"
Cut: "Well, I like to think I'm merely exercising my freedom to choose: to choose not to kill for a living."
"More efficient than a number? Hmm. I doubt the Kaminoan's think that way. Still, a name has to make you feel unique, especially in an army where everyone looks like you and talks like you."
Rex: "Come on, Rex, admit it. You've thought about what your life could look like if you were to also leave the army, choose he life you want."
Rex: "What if I am choosing the life I want? What if I'm staying in the army because it's meaningful to me?"
Cut: And how is it meaningful?
Rex: "Because I'm part of the most pivotal moment in the history of the Republic. If we fail, then our children and their children could be forced to live under an evil I can't well imagine."
Cut: "If you were to have children, of course, but that would be against the rules, wouldn't it? Isn't that what somebody programmed you to believe, Captain?"
Rex: No, Cut, it's simply what I believe. It doesn't matter if it's my children or other people's children. Does that meet with your approval?
Cut : Perfectly.

Cut: "I have a duty. You're right. But to my family. Does that count, or do you still plan to turn me in?"

The Clones are more than "pawns or parts and no more" of Palpatine's plan as many have said in this thread. They are people, with their own personalities, thoughts, and motivations.
The Chips were created, engineered, and at added at the embryonic stage to keep them completely in line against their own free will.

 

I don't understand that some are thinking it wrong, that the clones are made victim. When I saw AOTC in the cinema for the very first time and later ROTS I saw the Jedi and the clones as victims. Both groups are as much victims in that pointless war than every single civilian that died/suffered in the clone wars.

Even without the chip the clones are victims. A being that was created only to fight/die in a war of which it does only know the details and rules that the high ups want it to know, is a victim. Clones never fought for what they thought is right or wrong. They fought for what they were taught in rapid learning what was right. Sorry, if you never had a choice what to do, when you are being seen as unit (nothing more than a slave to fight) than you are also a victim when you kill the Jedi.

In my opinion it is even worse with the chip. One single moment overwrites all your experiences and you turn on those you trusted and kill? And you can do nothing about it, but to follow orders, because you're a good soldier? Victim. I don't even know why that can be denied, because every being without a free will/possibility of expressing a free will is a victim.

In a way, Cut (the deserter) did nothing different from Rex. Cut just used his teachings and programming and changed the republic for family.

I think the clones can be compared to the neighbors dog who was trained to attack/kill anyone who gets on the property. If you or your kid run over there and get attacked by the dog, you or your child is the victim. But also the dog, who was trained from birth to follow exact that order and attack anyone who gets on the ground. The offender is the dog's owner (in the clones case the Sith/republic).

 

Yes that dialogue in TCW is nonsense. You cannot built a "chip" into DNA. A clones DNA could have been modified to cause the clone to glow this device, but then it would not be a chip that could be removed, it would be an organ, probably integrated inside the brain

That is TCW though, not the PT.

If you go down that route then you could say a child murderer with no remorse is a victim as much as the murdered child because they were not brought up properly in their childhood and it must be the parents/guardians fault.

The clones enjoyed fighting battles, they loved following orders. It was their purpose in life. After they killed the Jedi they were only worried about when their next order would come. They didn't feel like a victim, they didn't think something bad had happened to them. They were not victims.

 

[QUOTE="Blackhole E Snoke,
If you go down that route then you could say a child murderer with no remorse is a victim as much as the murdered child because they were not brought up properly in their childhood and it must be the parents/guardians fault.

The clones enjoyed fighting battles, they loved following orders. It was their purpose in life. After they killed the Jedi they were only worried about when their next order would come. They didn't feel like a victim, they didn't think something bad had happened to them. They were not victims.[/QUOTE]

No, that's different. The murderer is responsible for his actions, as long as he is mentally able to check anything. And even in that case is he responsible for his actions, although the background has ALWAYS an effect on every single person. It is like Anakin is responsible for all the slaughter he did after his fall and in the Tusken camp, but also is his past to a degree involved, because those experiences feed into the thinking that ended in these actions. To say, that the past plays never a role in the behavior of adults is actually pretty insulting to anyone with a ****** past. Or is it only OK to say "it's because of the childhood and the parents mistreated him/her" when the adult doesn't turn out to be a mass murderer but is only socially awkward or has problems in relationships ? That is a double standard.

The clones have no normal background, that's why I compare them to a trained dog. You can't hold the dog accountable for attacking someone who gets on a property, when its sole purpose since early life was attacking as soon as someone gets on that property. In this case it is always the fault of the person on the other end of the chain. Maybe it is different in the USA but in my county the owner is charged, not the dog (which is legally a thing). The dog would still be killed, but the owner charged.


I don't say that the clones call themselves victims. Yet they are. Even if they enjoyed fighting, battles and stuff, they still can be victims of a system. Maybe they feel bad after the order. I don't know all of new canon, but I doubt there is proof that all clones after Order 66 had no problems with what they did.

What I'm trying to say is, that it is not black and white. The Jedi are victims, the clones as well. And most civilians of the galaxy.