PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Ftfy

 

I am very happy with the decision to fully integrate TCW/Rebels/Animation material into movies. It's a bold move, and something that Marvel never did during it's 10 year run of the MCU. They claim it's a shared universe and yet their tv/netflix shows are completely sidelined.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Marvel fan, but they never had the courage or will to really integrate their canon. Star Wars is doing it quite well.

 

I agree, but I like the story.

 

Well, the overwrote a few things in doing TCW, like aspects of the CW multimedia project, but IMO, it works out okay.

 

I missed your reply to my post because you broke the quote.

I disagree that the clones were a victim in order 66. They were not dogs. They were intelligent, responsible beings and in the PT they were able to choose their own actions. They were given orders and they chose to follow them every time, they followed order 66 and, unlike the dog in your example, they were not punished for doing so, they did their job and then went on to their next missions for the Empire continuing to follow orders and willingly causing pain and suffering to innocent people. They were always weapons of the sith. TCW changed that and made them victims of war by removing their ability to chose what to do during order 66. They were manipulated to do something against their will, and it is this that makes them a victim.

For me this turns the grand army of the republic into a thing of good, taken over by evil. I don't like that. I remember how sinister the clones looked to me when I first saw them in AOTC boarding their star destroyer shaped ships. It was clear to me that this grand army of the "Republic" was absolutely not a good thing and that the Jedi were getting played.

 

I'm growing sick of this argument...

 

There we go. I enjoyed that little morsel of backstory...

 

Urmmm OK. I thought it was a discussion on a topic rather than an argument. I like your new profile picture BTW. I think it is great that the TCW will finally get the ending it deserves.

 

It is amazing indeed.
goes back to TV forum to celebrate

 

I think w should agree to disagree here.

When the clones were bound/manufactured to follow every order, they simply have no choice of action. In this case there's no intelligence involved and they act like mindless droids.

If they are intelligent and could decide that it's wrong to turn on their generals but aren't able to disobey because of the genetic/chip tampering, they are victims.

That is how I see it and for me ROTS has become way deeper and harder to watch.

 

And it is also okay to talk about the canon that included TCW, as long as it is relevant to the film discussion. BTW, Lucas already considered TCW canon before he sold his company.

There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves.

--George Lucas, Total Magazine interview, 2008.

There was no real alteration between what was written in the films to what is written in TCW. The latter just clarified things because Filoni asked Lucas questions about the films that Lucas never addressed during the making of those films.

The chips were provided by the Sith and they were all lead to believe that they wouldn't malfunction, so when the one in Tup did, Dooku demanded it be handed over after Tup's termination, so that the problem could be identified. The whole point of the chip from a real world stance was that Palpatine's plan was almost undone by something unforeseen. A reoccurring motif in the Saga, see the Death Star plans and Luke Skywalker.

That's why it is done before they're at child stage.

Which is what happened with Rex, Wolffe and Gregor.



They learned from Fives before he died, that the chips were inside their heads and they had it removed before Order 66. They couldn't afford to tell the others, but the three of them believed Fives. And yes, they were chips. It is clear that it is by what is stated.

First off, we never saw situations in the films where the Clonetroopers would have to disagree with orders from the Jedi generals. That was the point of the Umbara arc in season three. We were shown what were the limits of the whole, "totally obedient, taking any order without question" were. Second, they were victims long before the biochip was added because they were created and altered to be the dogs of the Sith. You cannot say that they willingly choose to follow orders when AOTC says that they had no choice but to obey, because they were modified to accept any order without question. You cannot have it both ways.

As to your last point, yes, we the audience know this. The Jedi, at this point, do not.

 

I think it's great that every person can have different opinions. I enjoy the discussion and respect your view on the subject. I don't think there is a wrong or right way to think about order 66 in the PT. I think its for to the viewer to decide their personal preference.

I think there is a difference. I'll try to give a good example. (Based a bit on EU rather than just the PT, I know but for me it fits well)
1. A basic clone trooper is on a mission that requires him to be able to run. Jedi general orders trooper to shoot himself in the foot and still find a way to get to the destination on time. Trooper chooses to shoot himself in the foot and then gets to work on solving the problem.
2. A clone commander is given the same mission. Jedi general orders him to shoot one of his men in the foot and still complete the mission on time. Clone Commander asks Jedi general why this is necessary as it makes no sense and compromises the mission. He also offers Jedi general an alternative approach to completing the mission. Jedi general says "OK forget that first mission. Your new mission is to shoot that trooper in the foot". Clone Commander shoots trooper in the foot and reports back to Jedi general "Mission complete sir".
3. An original Null ARC trooper is given the same mission. Jedi general orders him to shoot a clone trooper in the foot. ARC Trooper answers "If you want that trooper shot you do it yourself. I have a mission to complete" and he runs off before Jedi general can cancel the first mission.

Now if any of the three above clones received order 66, A special executive order right from the top of command that automatically cancels all previous missions. All three would choose to kill the Jedi general.

TCW didn't follow these same lines of genetic engineered soldiers bred for specific roles, so they all became potentially equal, even a basic trooper was able to question orders and could be promoted to ARC trooper. So a different means of control needed to be created for order 66. One that could be turned off.

 

Except you're basing the idea of taking any order as something almost inane as what you said. The idea being inane, not you. The point was that the Clonetroopers would accept the orders of the Jedi, until they accept the orders of a Sith Lord, at which point the Jedi can not countermand Order 66 and the Clonetroopers now follow the orders of the Sith. When Filoni discussed Order 66 with Lucas, the comparison to "The Manchurian Candidate" was made and at that point, Filoni got the confirmation that he needed on how it worked. As to the show not following the EU, while Filoni was a fan of the old EU, Lucas was not bound by it and if he felt that there shouldn't be specific roles that only specifically bred clones were made for, then that was going to be the case. That's why we don't see ARC Troopers and such in the films.

 

Did no one address how the Vader comics Order 66 couldn't happen without inhibitor chips?

 

Is there anything in the eu that directly contradicts the order 66 arc? I've read all the books, like the "Dark Lord Trilogy." I haven't ready any comics, be it Dark Horse or the newer Marvel. I know Dark horse actually had an order 66 series as I saw a motion comic made from one of the issues on YT, but don't remember it well.

Edit: IMO, the story arc is fully reconciled with:

AotC movie and Novelization
RotS movie and Novelization
& Dark Lord: RoDV(where the Clone Commandos refuse order 66. Also in the book, the clones, both regs and commandos, all had nicknames and friendly banter like real soldiers, like seen in TCW).

But is there anything out there that directly/specifically throws a wrench in the TCW arc?

 

Well, you could argue that's a chain-of-command thing.

Regardless, I don't have a problem with the chips. The original idea is that these are human beings except they've been genetically modified to follow any order without question. TCW reveals that they have a chip in their brain as part of their genetic structure which forces them to obey an order. I'm not sure how that's functionally much different.

TCW also never contradicts the idea that the clones are inherently more docile and receptive to following orders than the average human being. But the idea is that those of them who've gone through certain experiences--especially those of them who've benefited from close contact with freethinking Jedi commanders--gradually become more individualistic and rebellious. Genetic tendencies can only carry so far. These are still real human beings, and that's clear even from the films. The scene with Obi-Wan joking around with Cody before his mission is meant to illustrate that.

 

You're right there. I like how you put it. Exactly, those scenes are super powerful. First of Obi Wan observing this army that is awaiting with that music. And then the penultimate closing scene of AOTC with the Imperial march and essentially the beginnings of the Empire as the troops are dispatched from Coruscant. The troopers follow the command chain. They are part and parcel of the Republic. Which turns into the Empire. The Empire isn't some other entity. They are one and the same thing.

The Jedi were outplayed and Palpatine schemed. If Master Windu who bests Palpatine had been permitted to kill him there and then, versus Anakin's turn/betrayal, then Order 66 never gets issued and never happens. It is a command given and wilfully executed without regret and hesitation. There isn't a "trance." There isn't malice shown. As far as the troopers are concerned, it's another order. Which they wilfully comply with and execute with gusto.

You can see troopers openly attacking Yoda and Obi Wan who return to the Temple. How the troopers warn off Bail as the "situation" or Rebellion is being taken care of. And they promptly start to fire upon the sudden emergence of a Jedi onto the platform.

The clones were never manipulated because the entire political machination itself was a manipulation. A grand chess game which Palpatine played and won. The troopers are not humans, they're modified as shown in AOTC. They follow orders without question. Whether that be making a pointless advance, being told to hand over their food to their Jedi General, or being ordered to eliminate a Jedi General by the Chancellor who outranks the Jedi. Even if that Jedi just saved their life.

Each of those Commanders don't hesitate for a second. They receive an executive order. And they do it.

Rise of Darth Vader novel. Which sticks to the films' canon. It's about a command chain and the clone troopers/clone stormtroopers being tools in the Republic, or the Empire that it becomes. It isn't about going into a trance. The troopers follow orders without regret, mercy or feelings. And they continue to fire upon Jedi in the movies, and novels to execute that order with a gusto. The special commandos are an exception as they are explained to have a certain degree of independence, and not part of the regular clone army in their breeding and training. In addition, the commando suspects a possible Separatist trick and there is a discussion with the Commander in charge who notes their place and role in things. Note in that novel, how the other Jedi on the same planet, are swiftly dispensed with by their accompanying troops (the regular army). However, refusal to carry it out on the Commando team's part who these Jedi happened to be with at the exact moment, is admonished by the regular Clone Commander who tells them off and reports it. And Lord Vader dispenses punishment upon arrival.

The Revenge of the Sith novel, whilst adjusting some of the lines of the movie, also sticks to the movie. There are no chips. It is simply part of the plan. In fact it specifically mentions in the book how the Clones do not report to the Jedi Temple. They are soldiers of the Republic. And the head of the Republic is the Chancellor. Who outranks the Jedi. Meaning that the troops who obey any order will do so, even if that means killing their Jedi Generals. Who are now isolated on the battlefield and betrayed by their own troopers and the Republic itself.

 

The trance as you put it, was the result of the chip malfunctioning. Hence Tup speaking as he does when he starts attacking Tiplar. That doesn't mean that all clones did that. Just that in his case, the chip malfunctioned and it was screwing with his brain.

They're still human. Being modified doesn't make them not human. And yes, they were manipulated, because their whole existence was to serve without question. They didn't have a choice.

The fact that that even happens is a contradiction of accepting any order without question. That there goes against the films. Whereas the biochip doesn't contradict anything established. All Clonetroopers who have the chips in their heads, attacked their Jedi without question. The three who had them removed, didn't. And the ROTS novelization was written before TCW. So there wouldn't be a reference to that, while a newer edition would contain a reference to the biochips if they also reference the events of TCW.

Don't argue about the show contradicting things, while Lucas himself approved of these changes.

 

How does that work, though? How do you create a human being who will robotically follow literally any order without question, bu which is also able to think creatively? To think creatively means to imagine a range of other possibilities which might prove superior to the one in front of you. The concept of the clones was always a contradiction. Were they genetically modified to be more docile and less independent than Jango Fett? Sure, that's probably true. Does that really mean that they'll follow any order without question? That's more suspect. The Kaminoans are salesmen with a vested interest in portraying their product as flawless. They don't believe in or understand the concept of the human spirit.

 

In RoDV, the commandos(one of them was named "Climber" must not have had the chip/alteration. Maybe he was one of those 100 commandos/arc troopers or whatever that were bred(not bred, but u know what I mean) differently, or maybe all special operations troopers are created differently and without the obedience tampering, because Climber and his squad not only refuse order 66, but ambush the regular troops, disarm them, and give the Jedi a chance to escape. And they are defiant up to the end. Even when confronted by Vader, they talk smack to him. He kills 2 of them, and the other 2 run away...for a short time.

 

And what is with Slick? Slick turning against the Republic was extremely early in the war. He came fresh from Kamino and turned against the Republic and his brothers, on his own will. At that point wasn't a chip mentioned in TCW and Slick's behavior was clearly a sign of independent thinking, intelligence and building an own opinion.
That Rex and Fives removed their chips also shows that Clones act independently based on own experiences and against orders.

Whatever the Kaminoans as salesmen said, the clones were never mindless beings who followed every order. They thought independently, even more so the longer the war went on and their own experience of life outside the tube grew. The Sith suspected this, therefore the chip, so that practically everything a clone was as an own being when the order came could be overwritten.

The more I think about it I suspect that the nightmare which Fives and Tup talked about is a subconscious programming the Kaminoans used.

 

The chip wasn't mentioned until the show was off the air, when "The Lost Missions"(an abbreviated 6th season) was added to Netflix.

Exactly. They are people, even if they are inclined to be more subservient. And some of them could be more independent than others.

 

Why would it not work?
Having the ability to choose between a number of ways to accomplish the mission or carry out your order and at the same time not being able to disobey said order does not to have to be a problem.

Say a general gives an order to a clone commander, "The enemy has a base here and your orders are to take it out." The clone commander then can review the amount of soldiers he has at his command, weapons, equipment etc and also what he knows about the defenses of said base. Then he can choose whatever method he deems most suitable given the situation. Aerial bombardment, frontal assault, gas, sneak attack or what ever.
So the clone commander can think creatively in that he can choose HOW he tries to accomplish his objective but at the same time, the thought to simply disobey or not try to carry out the order is literally unthinkable.

If the general makes the order a bit more specific and says "The base is close to a major city and try to limit civilian casualties." The clone commander will then exclude certain tactics, like massive bombardment.

Even if the commander knows that the forces he has vs the defenses of said base is totally inadequate to accomplish the goal, he will still obey.
At most he might ask if he could get some reinforcement as what he has is not sufficient.
But regardless if he gets it or not, he WILL try to carry out the order. Even knowing that it will fail and he will die along with his troops.
Because he can't disobey orders.

I have already mentioned the Star Trek example of the Jem'Hadar.
Their obedience is not 100% absolute but very close to it.
And they can have personalities and can think for themselves.
But even when a Jem'Hadar knows he is been betrayed by his superior and is walking into an ambush and certain death. He will not disobey orders because it is not his place to do so. He follows orders, that is how the world works in his view, that is the order of things.
Same with the clones, they can choose how they accomplish their goals if the order is very general but they will never not obey them. Even if they are senseless or evil.

As for the Kamino, they have made other clone armies in the past so they would know what they are talking about.
If those clone armies were sold under the promise of "The clones will obey every order" but that was found out to not be the case, then that could hurt their business.
Also, they are not making a sale with Obi-Wan, the sale has already happened so they have no reason to lie to him about this.
Plus he is a Jedi so he might sense that they are lying.

And IF the Kamino are in on the whole "Kill all Jedi plot" it would be stupid for them to say that the clones will obey any order.
Because the Jedi know that the army is for the republic, not them, thus whoever has the highest rank in the republic could order the clones to do anything, like killing them.
So telling the Jedi that the clones will obey any order, like killing them, would just make them suspicious and that would work counter to the goal to wipe them out.
Simply say that the clones are superior to droids in that they can think creatively and that they are more obedient than regular soldiers.
Simple.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

@Samuel Vimes - no, I don't believe that it works this way. You can't have independently deciding troopers who openly care about each other, their generals and themselves to obey every given order. For that there have to be a special programming/chip which make sure that even a stupid or insane order is obeyed.
That's like saying that a real world soldier who follows every order but adapts to the given situation would still obey blindly to his General telling him "Storm that playground in the kindergarten and kill every child and caretaker on sight."
I'm pretty sure that the soldier disobeys. And that is why the Sith needed a failsafe/chip. Every sentient being, however it was raised, adepts to it's new environment and uses the everyday facts to grow own experiences and an own moral compass. There would be a shift of obedience and too many clones would not obey the order, because their own experience would say that the order is wrong.

@Christus Regnet - thanks for helping me out. I always watch it on Netflix without really checking which season it is.
And I see the clones as people, always have. I found the whole Kamino stuff in AOTC just gross. As I said before, for me the clones are victims like the Jedi. Or victims even before the Jedi were.

 

In our history, there are many examples of soldiers doing very horrible things.
And some try to excuse it by "I was only following orders."

But this is fiction so anything the writer wants to happen, happens.

I already gave the example of the Jem'Hadar. Genetically modified plus other things.
They can think independently, they can care about each other but they also obey orders.
Even if those orders are pointless, self-destructive or evil.

AotC makes it very clear, the clones obey ANY order WITHOUT question. And since nothing in the films disprove this, we must take it as fact.
So the clones could get an order to slaughter babies and they would obey.
And we see nothing in the films that would suggest that the Jedi doubt this total obedience in any way.

The Kamino people have made other clone armies in the past, where the sith were likely not involved.
And it is likely they were made the same way, totally obedient.
Droids are totally obedient, if the clones are not, then the cloners loose a major selling point.

Or take TFA, the FO have their soldiers shoot a bunch of helpless villagers. No protest, they do.
We know they are not clones but have been trained/indoctrinated since birth.
Yes Finn does not shoot but he was the only one and it seems that disobedience like that was uncommon.

Or take the DS and the people that fire the SL, this is murdering billions and yet they obey orders.
Those did not seem to be clones.

So I don't have an issue with clones, that have been modified and trained for a long time to act in certain ways, that they can both think creatively and at the same time, obey orders without question.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark