PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Judging by the Order 66 arc, yeah, it was mind control it seems because the Jedi were incapable of working out the blindingly obvious.

 

To respond to both of these points, you are both using Lama Su's line to explain the actions of the clones during Order 66 - they followed the order because they had no choice, it was in their genes. Now, I'm sure that was the spirit in which the line was supposed to be taken. For me though, it's an explanation that's neither wanted nor needed. I acknowledge that the clones would have had less independence than the average genetically unaltered person but I don't subscribe to the rigid view that the genetic alterations mean that literally any order from somebody in the chain of command would be followed - as I alluded to in a previous post.

Cutting to the chase, I think that the genetic alterations might make the clones more likely to obey the order but I also think that the clones do still have a choice about whether to obey it or not. And the fact that they choose to obey the order (for whatever reason) makes the Order 66 montage more emotionally powerful for me. Some people raise the issue that normal people wouldn't turn on the Jedi like that (hence the genetic modification plot device). I don't see that as an issue. I think history shown us that ordinary people can do terrible things to each other quite easily in the right time and the right circumstances - examples being the Red Army purges, the Holocaust, the Cultural Revolution, the East German Stasi etc etc. I have no problem believing that the clones executed the order of their own free will and I have no problem believing that some of them may have had regrets years afterwards.

Is this an interpretation too far? Probably. But it works for me.

 

Mind you that AOTC pointed out that the Jedi were too old and stuck in their ways, which we then see bear fruit in Luke. And even Yoda admits this before Luke is born.

Mind you that ROTS already showed that the clones had names and personalities. All the show did was give more time to it.

 

Only in the novel (possibly a deleted scene from the movie.)

 

Still counts as canon at this time.

 

True enough - it's not a scene with different dialogue, but an "offscreen scene".

I think the dialogue was along the lines of:

Obi-Wan: "He's, well, arrogant."
Yoda: "A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are - even the older, more experienced ones"

 

Through observation, it's becoming more and more apparent that the biochips were done as an easy way out. It's hard to enter the clone trooper's mind and understand everything about how their thought processes work. Biologically they're human, but mentally, I'm not so sure. Rather than try to map a clone trooper's way of thinking and inner selves, they made it so their obedience to order 66 was beyond their mental control, rather than the result of complex mental conditioning.

 

This. Conditioning or chip, it's not the clones' fault that their own free-will was usurped.

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive. See the quotations from the "Journal of the 501st", which, BTW, predates Filoni...

Tup's chip was malfunctioning.

Apparently all along...rewatch the ep, and focus on the reaction shots from Rex and the other troopers. They knew what Fives was talking about.

Says more about those who don't care than it does about Filoni or Lucas.

Again, see the "Journal of the 501st" among other sources. This is not new with Filoni.

 

In The Official Fact File 36 (Commander Bly article) it says that while the bio-chip in his head "ensured he obeyed Order 66", at the same time "there was enough of his free will remaining that he made sure his first shot killed his general and friend Aayla Secura instantly".

So the chip doesn't completely eliminate free will.

Given how many times they do question orders (and not just in Season 6 either) - there has to be something special about "Order 66" compared to "ordinary orders".

 

Possibly because, as early as the ROTS novel, it was shown as the kind of Order that goes right back to before a clone first "awakens in their creche-school"

Cody responded as he had been trained since before he'd even awakened in his creche-school. "It will be done, my lord."

 

The concept that there were many Contingency Orders, may owe something to Traviss.

Her version:

Order 66: In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established.

Problem was - Palpatine doesn't actually become the Supreme Commander until about halfway through the ROTS novel.

 

That said:

In the aforementioned Official Fact File, the Contingency Order list is portrayed as being "Something Palpatine created so that he could show the Senate why the clones obeyed him, and not disclose the existence of the bio-chips"

 

No, it simply never came up before. Nothing about the chip contradicts ROTS, so it's non-presence isn't an issue.

 

Does anyone know why "Edit" isn't working? I get the Edit screen up, but it won't load the post to edit, So I have to DP this.

Uh, no, he becomes Chancellor (who is the SC of the military) in TPM.

 

"Clone Intelligence," Mace said heavily, "reports to us."
"I beg your pardon, Master Windu, but that is no longer the case." Though Anakin's expression was perfectly solemn, Obi-Wan thought he could detect a hint of satisfaction in his young friend's voice. "I thought it had been already made clear. The constitutional amendment bringing the Jedi under the Chancellor's Office naturally includes troops commanded by Jedi. Palpatine is now Supreme Commander of the Grand Army of the Republic."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Security_Act_amendment

 

I meant the brain mapping from an out of universe perspective so the writers had an easier time answering the question of how the clones so suddenly turned despite their developed individuality and relations to the jedi.

 

Good articles on "clone behaviour"

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-es...hors-cut-part-9-battlfields-of-the-clone-wars

As the Kaminoans would reluctantly admit, genetics is not a perfect science –aberrations in a clone’s gestational environment and random mutations sometimes produced clones with different physical features, or that were simply wired differently than their batchers. Most of the time, these physical differences were slight enough that they could be ignored – eye color proved particularly prone to variation – or severe enough that the aberrant clone was reconditioned early in its development.
But mental aberrations were harder to detect – and other defects were sometimes introduced by mistakes in the clones’ flash-training. While the vast majority of clones followed orders automatically, a few did not. As the Kaminoans’ own models predicted, the vast majority of these incidents involved ARC troopers and clone commandos, whose behavior had been manipulated minimally to preserve their independence and ability to improvise. But there were incidents involving rank-and-file clone troopers, too.
Some clones suffered from paranoid delusions in the heat of the battle. The Mad Clone of Kaikielius – as he was dubbed by HoloNet commenters – turned his weapons on his batchers during a recon mission and was found sitting docilely on an outcropping, surrounded by their bodies. Interrogated by Republic Intelligence, he insisted that the entire Kaikielius campaign was a training exercise and complimented the trainers for their increasingly fiendish challenges, admitting that he’d nearly been tricked by the decision to simulate commando droids wearing his batchers’ armor and even using familiar unit nicknames.
Other clones rejected the basics of their indoctrination. The clone sergeant nicknamed Slick conspired with the Separatists on Christophsis, severely complicating Republic efforts to retake the planet. Fives, a clone trooper admitted to the ARC training program, suffered an apparent paranoid breakdown and reportedly plotted to kill Chancellor Palpatine. The ARC trooper known as Spar was reconditioned for aberrant behavior on Kamino, but successfully resisted reprogramming and hid his true thoughts from his trainers. Spar also reported being able to recall fragments of Jango Fett’s own memories, a real but vanishingly rare phenomenon in cloning. He deserted from the Grand Army and became a bounty hunter serving the Separatists, eventually re-emerging as a Mandalorian leader.
Now and again clones – mostly ARCs and commandos — retained sufficient independence to make up their own minds about the conduct of the war, and either refused orders or fled the war altogether. Some clones refused to accept Order 66 — the 22nd Air Combat Wing’s Ion Team, for example, helped Roan Shryne and two other Jedi escape Republic forces on Murkhana. Kal Skirata’s Null Squad deserted en masse, as did other clone troopers he had trained. And some clone troopers survived encounters in which they were listed as MIA or KIA, taking the advantage to slip away to a quieter life. The story of one such clone, Cut Lawquane, emerged in the time of New Republic with the publication of Shaeeah Lawquane’s memoir of a Felucian childhood, entitled My Stepfather’s Face: A Soldier’s Secret.
And some clones became famous not for disobeying orders, but for bad luck. The clone trooper Able was marooned on the remote jungle world Lubang Minor in 21 BBY, encountered by rebel forces after the Battle of Yavin, and fought for the Alliance. A stranger story was that of the Lost Prophet, a holy man whose gnomic utterances attracted pilgrims to a mountain cave on the desert world of Du Mai. In 21 ABY, the journalist Cindel Towani offered compelling evidence that the Lost Prophet was a castaway who’d sustained head injuries in the crash of his ARC-170 during the final days of the war. Towani revealed that the advice he gave pilgrims consisted of scrambled bits of his Kaminoan conditioning and flash-training.

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-es...ors-cut-part-7-the-grand-army-of-the-republic

The clones we are training will not, of course, be Jango Fett — we have augmented their genomes to make them superior soldiers, with greater lung capacity, more fast-twitch musculature, improved stamina and better recovery times. We have eliminated physical defects such as susceptibilities to environment allergies and a mild astigmatism. Our clones will be more docile than Jango, less given to anger and more inclined to group identity. They will, unavoidably, lack some of Jango’s tactical brilliance and improvisational genius – but this should be offset by a greater ability to operate effectively as a combat unit.
But for all that, we must expect a certain number of aberrant behavioral events in units approved for deployment to the customer. Some of Jango’s independence and defiance will surface, as it is buried too deeply in the genome to extract without eliminating the qualities we value. And some of our units will display other quirks, as Factor H asserts itself. Jango insists these displays of individuality and unpredictability will make our unitsmoreeffective, not less, and I agree. Factor H may be frustrating to those who track aberrance rates, but I predict our combat trainers will find a strong correlation between deviations from behavioral patterning and effectiveness on the battlefield.