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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Dmasterman, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Darth Plagueis novel has them be responsible for a previous EU clone army - not human but Nikto. Not sure what the conclusions were - but I think they were problematic - which is why the Kaminoans decided humans might work better.
     
  2. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    "I meant take care of him, not ******* take care of him!"
     
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  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Rowling was originally going to kill Ron, just for sheer spite and then changed her mind. Had she talked about it earlier, she might have been swayed by the fans not to. Optimus Prime was killed off by the writers of the original cartoon, only to bring him back because the outcry over it. Sometimes, the characters outgrow the creators intentions.

    Also, again what strategy? Do you really count strategy as, stand back and wait to fire with their backs turned?
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    She was going to kill Ron out if spite? Spite against whom?

    Regardless, she backed down from a lame-ass reason to kill a character, and by "lame-ass reason" I mean "any reason other than it fits into the overall story narrative." Good for her.

    I didn't know that about Optimus Prime but resurrections are always terrible, especially those done because someone cried when a character died. That's what is supposed to happen.. A character's death is supposed to upset people. If Rowling had resurrected Sirius Black, pulled an "Oh, he didn't really die" story out of her ass, I would have been more pissed than I was when he died.

    What you're describing is not characters outgrowing creator intentions. I understand that can happen prior to publication, during the writing process, and normally we don't even know about it unless we're chatting with other writers.

    What you're describing is letting character popularity determine the story. It reminds me of some of those sitcom ads in the 80s and 90s in which the viewers were asked "How would you like this episode to end? Do you want John to end up with Jane or Susie? Call 1-800-WeCantWrite and let us know."

    Or, in the days when I read fan fiction, I'd find a story written by a middle schooler in which I would get to the 5th chapter and it would begin with an author's note reading "I forgot to tell you, the main character is seven months pregnant, although she was buying tampons in the drug store in the last chapter." Er, OK, you're 12, you have an excuse.

    As far as the clones...waiting until the Jedi's backs were turned is not complicated strategy but does require thought. I can't see an automated being doing anything other than shooting.
     
  5. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
    the ONLY function of the clone army is to serve palpatine's purposes. whether it's a physical implant or not doesn't matter.
     
  6. Lord Chazza

    Lord Chazza Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2013
    It's probably because you are using Firefox. Right click Edit and choose open in new tab. See this thread.
     
  7. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 1, 2013
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Just sheer spite she said.

    Tell that to a bunch of parents who had to listen to their children bawl when they saw the animated film and an early third season episode, where not only did he die, but wasn't ever going to be back again. Parents wrote angry letters and Hasbro had him resurrected at the end of season three and a new toy made in 88, since the original was discontinued in the US in 86.

    Rowling was going through, as she put it, a dark phase when she considered killing one of the main three. In the case of Hasbro, it was about selling toys. And if you think 900 numbers were rough, you should read up about the second Robin, Jason Todd. The most infamous of all 900 number decisions.


    Not that much thought when you watch the scene.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I would be happy to tell those parents that. I can't wrap my brain around the angry letters. It's a cartoon.

    What will these parents do when and if they have to tell their children that a family member has died? Where are they going to send their angry letters to get that family member resurrected?

    (After losing a family member or friend every few months since summer of 2012 due to either cancer or heart conditions, and having to explain to my children that these people were not coming back, I'm afraid I have very little sympathy for parents getting bent out of shape over death in a ****ing cartoon.)
     
  10. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 1, 2013
    You seem to have very little sympathy period.

    Kid's don't think like grown ups, esp young kids.
     
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  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I admitted that I cried in the theater when Optimus Prime died, but apparently unlike a lot of kids, I did stop within a couple of moments. Others had to be dragged out of the theater because they wouldn't stop. The parents themselves only cared because they cared about their children's feelings. Granted, it may have been a bit much. But it did have an important side effect, which was that it taught toy companies to not treat their produce so lightly. That they can still reap the profits so long as they keep their characters, who become iconic, out there for consumption. Hasbro and Takara would continue to produce new Optimus Prime/Convoy figures, along with other classic characters, whereas the plan was to discontinue them in each country in favor of newer ones. They now to a mix of both.

    But this is going way off topic.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    This discussion came off a discussion on whether retcons/afterthoughts to a story should come about based on audience reactions to a character or event.

    I still say no.

    And to go back to the clones...

    Is there any explanation for the chip other than an afterthought based on the idea that "Uh-oh, the clones can't deliberately betray the Jedi now, people like them too much"? If so, what is the explanation? If the chip was planned all along, why was it never mentioned in AOTC, as I asked earlier?
     
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    It's indirectly mentioned:

    "We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."

    Turns out the "genetic structure" was altered through a biological chip. And that same chip does more than what was explained to the Jedi.
     
  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I understand that it could be considered implied, although I certainly never inferred it when I watched AOTC and ROTS; just as it could be considered implied that Leia remembered her "real mother" through the Force.

    But I am still wondering if the chip was planned all along.
     
  15. Meyerm

    Meyerm Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Probably not. the clones had little to no character development prior to TCW. It's easy for a faceless soldier you know nothing about to so easily turn on their leaders than one that's had a very well-defined character and well-defined relationships with their jedi leaders. They didn't know how or didn't want to maintain that they consciously made the decision to kill the jedi after all that character development, so they took the easy way out.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    This is my guess too, which is one reason I have a problem with the whole idea.
     
  17. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2011
    There is indeed. Within this thread, this is a fairly good one:

    It's a means to ensure maximal (preferably absolute) compliance by clones with Order 66 when the order is issued. That such a means was put into place makes a great deal of sense IU.

    The chip probably wasn't planned by Lucas all along; there being a means to ensure maximal compliance with Order 66 almost certainly was. After greenlighting/creating TCW story arcs involving clones who deviate from the norm and an entire unit (the very one that unflinchingly massacres the Jedi in the Temple) that refuses to obey certain orders of one general, he probably thought there was a need to fully entrench the separation between Order 66 and every other order the clones could ever be given. The chip accomplishes this, making it near-intrinsic even. It places compliance with Order 66 on a level of paramountcy that's beyond compliance with any other order, something which is very fitting in the context of the clones' overall story arc.

    Indoctrination and probably still play a role, but compliance is ensured with the near-intrinsic modifications. I personally had some issues with the chip being removable (though TCW does not make it clear that the chip is not integral to the clones' neural wiring or physiology; the clones with their chips removed either die or are severely weakened), but overall I was satisfied with the explanation. It mercifully pre-empted any hypothetical attempt by a future writer to cop out of depicting the overwhelming bulk of clones executing the order and living with the consequences.

    That's precisely why a means to ensure maximal compliance with Order 66 is necessary.

    If an ordinary human could do all those things if in the right frame of mind, then there is a reduced need for a clone army. Why would the Sith bother with all the expense and scheming if they could simply force the creation of a centralised Republic military well in advance of any Separatist Crisis? With the resources at the Republic's disposal, such a military force would at least be a sizeable speedbump in the way of any would-be conqueror. Such a military force could be relied on to do a plethora of nefarious deeds, though there would not be anything to absolutely guarantee that they would almost all faithfully execute the Jedi on a second's notice without giving the plot away.

    The clones having no choice whatsoever whether they comply with Order 66 justifies the scheming and the cost of creating them ten years in advance of any use for them. Their ability to unanimously comply with Order 66 makes them valuable to the Sith scheme, or else they're barely any better than a military composed of regular humans and humanoids. There were, however, sizeable numbers of defectors from the forces of the Nazis, the Soviets, the British Empire, etc., and Hitler's absolute genocidal ambitions could be thwarted by the otherwise loyal Erwin Rommel refusing to execute Jewish POWs. From Sidious' perspective, the Jedi would ideally be eradicated down to the last initiate in order for them to not pose a threat to him, and it's clear that he would rather rely on clones to do this than on birth-born soldiers.

    From the perspective of Sidious in 32 BBY, in the process of drafting the specifications for the clone troopers to be relayed to Kamino, it makes a lot of sense to include something similar to the biochip/neural implant in order to deprive the individual clones of any choice in the matter of executing Order 66. Such a choice element could be devastating to Sidious' schemes. Clones with the ability to choose whether or not to execute the order would be of little more value to him than birth-born soldiers. Something like the biochip/neural implant also increases the secrecy of the Order and reduces the risk of its discovery.
     
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  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    A bit late here,

    As someone who don't watch TCW nor read much if any EU and only watches the movies, this what I got from them.
    Also I taken all that is said in the films to be correct until given reason to think otherwsie.

    The clones have been modified genetically, ie their DNA have been tampered with, to make them less independent and totally obidient. As was said, they obey ANY order without question.
    So if they are told to stand on one leg and stick out their tounge, they will do that.
    If they are told to slaughter babies, they will do that.
    The option to NOT obey an order did not exist to the Clones.

    So based on just that, Order 66 isn't stricly speaking neccesary, Palpatine has the highest authority and is highest in the chain of command, so he can tell the clones to do anything, including to kill every Jedi. He could tell them to kill every living being in the galaxy and they would do that too.
    A chip is even more unneccesary as the clones, by their nature, can't disobey orders.

    However this does not make the clones mindless or lack any free will at all. If they are given a general order, like "Capture this city and secure it." They can use whatever means they deem fit based on what they know about the target, what resources and materials they have and the overall strategic situation.
    They can do things even if they haven't been ordered too. A clone could choose to evacuate non-combatants from a building before destroying it if his order is simply, destroy this building.
    But if given a direct, clear order, the clones can't choose to not obey it. Possibly the thought would never even occur to them.

    Lastly, about Order 66 and the chip. Order 66 is likely to have been put there by the Kamino people. If it was just one of a lot of general orders, I can see them doing it without much comment. Still a "Jedi" orders a clone army with a specific "Kill all jedi order." A bit odd. And they might mention it to Obi-Wan.

    The chip must have been put there by the Kamino and would make it clear to them that the Clone Army is too be used to kill the Jedi. This would cause even more questions, esp since a "Jedi" made this very specific demand.
    And were the Kamino aware of what the end goal would be? If yes, then that makes them fully compliant in the siths's schemes. If no, then there is the risk that they would have told Obi-Wan about this specific request.
    Which is a bit of a risk to Palatine. If the Jedi learn about a very specific order that will kill them all, they would be fools to work with the clones. If this order is backed up by a chip then it is even more clear.
    So IF Palpatine's plan was for the Jedi to find the clone army, isn't there a considerable risk that the Kamino people would have told them about this very specific order and thus destroy his plans?
    The Kamino people seemed to not hold anything back to Obi-Wan and he didn't seem to sense any duplicity ont heir part.

    In closing, if the clones are made totally obidient, no chance to not obey orders, the chip isn't needed.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  19. Lord Chazza

    Lord Chazza Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Perhaps. I'm not complaining. Without clones, Episode II could have had an interesting angle where Palpatine or the Senate are considering mass conscription. This could have been one of the ways in which the Republic is shown to be in decline.

    You would have to ask George Lucas. It's his story, not mine. The story could have been written differently.

    But even these genetically modified clones don't give you that guarantee - hence the malfunctioning chip.

    Barely better than regular soldiers? Well I was under the impression that Jango Fett was supposed to be better than the average person at fighting. Therefore, it follows that an army full of Fett clones would be better than an army full of average people. Order 66 was hardly the only action the Republic Army was required for. First they had to fight the Clone Wars. Then, in the Imperial era, they had to fight the Empire's enemies. You would agree that having an army comprised of better than average soldiers would be a significant asset?

    This is a repetition of point number three.

    Sure. It makes sense. It's just that, for me, it's solving a problem that doesn't exist - that problem being that the nice clones could never turn on the Jedi.

    As far as I can see, the producers of TCW presume that the idea that ordinary people can do evil things is too complicated for their target audience. Their solution is to centralise the evil by removing the clone's ability to think, thereby making it all Palpatine's fault.

    You would seem to be operating under the assumption that if the clones had a choice, they would choose to disobey Order 66. I believe this is a false assumption.

    This is a repetition of point number four.

    That's subjective. I personally think that the order would have been better hidden by being buried in paperwork.
     
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  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I think TCW individualizing the clones to the extent that it did, without giving much if any thought to their portrayal in the films, set up a situation in which many in the audience preferred to believe this.

    FWIW, clones with personalities would have been fine. We could have had the Perky Clone, the Sarcastic Clone, the Always Pissy Clone, and the Mellow Clone, and to keep this from being the GFFA version of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (the Jedi and the Seven Clones?), the idea of the Jedi giving them names should definitely stay.

    But the rebellious clones took that idea a little too far and had the writers pinned to a corner. If Cut can desert, why can't the clones disobey Order 66? Indeed.
     
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  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I prefer the notion that the Kaminoans exaggerate at least to a limited degree.
     
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  22. Lord Chazza

    Lord Chazza Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2013
    Yeah I can see the problem there. But there were ways out. The story-writers could have emphasised the clone's sense of duty. The story-writers could have emphasised the clone's love of rules. The story-writers could have introduced a theme where the clones are resentful that they don't have Republic citizenship and would do anything to earn it. The story-writers could have introduced the fear element e.g. execution for not following orders. These are just a few ideas I came up with off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with more.

    The point is, faced with the choice of either:

    a) Cleverly introducing themes that would give the clones a reason to choose to obey Order 66 in spite of friendship
    b) Blaming Order 66 on genetic engineering and Palpatine

    the TCW writers went for option B.
     
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  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I think Jangotat in The Cestus Deception may have been the first clone character portrayed as being willing to desert - but he ended up sacrificing himself before he got the chance.

    After that there was Spar (History of the Mandalorians online article), then various Traviss characters, and finally Cut.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Lord Chazza : Option A would have been far more interesting.
     
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  25. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 11, 2011
    The re-armament of the Republic without clones is indeed discussed in AOTC. The use of clones is implied to be ethically dubious and only accepted because of the imminent threat of CIS invasion.

    The chip malfunctions in the instance of just one out of a vast number (a few quintillion?) of clones. Immediately afterwards, Palpatine orders an "inoculation" to be distributed to every clone. The reliability of the modifications is not really in doubt, especially given what happens in ROTS.


    It never seemed to be about niceness of clones. Indeed, TCW depicted many of them in unflattering ways at times, and then there's ROTS. To me, it seemed to be more about the importance of Order 66 over any other order and the importance of Order 66 to the clone troopers' role in the story of the PT.

    In TCW, plenty of "ordinary people" are depicted doing evil things of their own volition, not just explicitly but through inference. One of the supporting protagonists of the series is a Republic Navy officer who is later seen at the conference on board the Death Star. Wulff Yularen is never depicted as malicious or despotic, but it's an unavoidable fate for the character that he will have worked his way up the Imperial hierarchy by 0 BBY to the point where he is sitting alongside Tarkin at a conference to discuss the suppression of dissent and democracy. He's no clone and has no less of a reduced ability to go along with the Empire than Tarkin or Dodonna.

    I am not operating under that assumption. Indoctrination is not intrinsic to them as genetic modification or a neural implant would be, and the clones in TCW demonstrate regularly the effects of indoctrination. They adhere to authoritarian beliefs and are fanatically loyal to the Republic's central government, even justifying going against the orders of superior officers in the name of the Republic; that's Janissary/Mamluk territory, only with the state as their deity. In ROTS, they are depicted rounding up Pau'an civilians for internment as if this is standard operating procedure for them.

    I have little doubt that a normal clone without a neural implant would readily execute Order 66. They're all indoctrinated from birth to be loyal to the Republic and genetically modified to be compliant. A normal clone without a neural implant could be relied on to execute Order 66 far more than a birth-born soldier could. However, there would inevitably be clones who could get over their indoctrination because it is non-intrinsic and merely psychological. A well-designed neural implant able to override the ability to choose would increase the Order 66 compliance rate significantly, likely to 100%.

    The point I've been making is that Sidious is likely to want additional means to ensure that Order 66 is executed by every clone. If such a means exists, he is likely to want it put into place. Very little else makes sense IU.

    Then the Jedi could thwart Sidious' schemes against them by hiring some good lawyers? There are drawbacks to every explanation. Placing the knowledge of Order 66 within the grasp of the Jedi seems out of character for Sidious.

    TCW depicted a somewhat draconian Republic military justice system. Capital punishment, summarily meted out by officers in the field, is on the books. The Kaminoan cloning facilities are also depicted unilaterally issuing draconian punishments, such as the reconditioning of defective clones.

    As I've outlined, TCW did indeed introduce themes that would give the clones a reason to obey Order 66: the clones' indoctrination, fanaticism, sense of duty, and loyalty. They're depicted being raised and working in strongly regimented institutions with clear chains of command and brutal punishments for those who step out of line. The Jedi gradually influence these to become more humane, but they remain at their core institutions that are precursors to the Empire and show it. There's no point saying that the writers should have done something when that's exactly what they did.

    The choice was not to either go with (a) or (b); they went for both (a) and (b).

    To be blunt, to not go for (b) would be to contradict the films.
     
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