PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Star Wars isn't a complicated franchise. A mind control that makes the clones kill the Jedi on Palpatine's command is a simple and easy explanation. It also ensures that the number of Jedi survivors is very low, as the chips prevent the clones from showing any mercy, as was shown in the novel: Dark Lord, The Rise of Darth Vader.

 

To betray someone, you have to start out being "loyal to them" in the first place though.

 

Except it wasn't just that, but rather a reflection of what can happen when change and adaptation does occur. The Jedi became stagnant due to not adapting and became corrupted because they let themselves be dictated by Palpatine's actions.

No one would question that. But the impact is lost since of those, only the Jedi don't return from the dead.

The basic gut reaction that many people will have with someone whose cause they don't agree with is, "I hope they ******* die because they deserve what they get for being *******." In the case of the Jedi, a portion of the fandom did not like how the Jedi were portrayed in the PT, because Lucas went against their expectations and this wound up angering them.

Which is why Palpatine had won. He played the Jedi's morals against them. The true problem was that they had let themselves get to the point where they could be manipulated by the Sith. But as it is, the Republic needed to crumble and the Jedi had sworn an oath to prevent that.

It isn't about the betrayal not being a sticking point, but in that the chip was necessary to illustrate how the Jedi were starting to catch up to Palpatine.

 

The Republic and the Jedi already had the moral high ground, given the atrocities of Separatist powers like the Trade Federation against the Naboo in TPM, and further documented throughout the CW such as the Techno Union's on Ryloth against the Twi'leks.

 

I'm not saying that they were terrible people. Others saw it that way, but I see it as they had lost their way big time and their actions were dictated by a madman who know exactly what buttons to push and how to push them.

Basically taking children from their families and training them, that way. Telling them that they cannot have attachments. Using clones of people who have no choice in fighting versus people volunteering.

Traviss is ex-military so she's going to be a bit biased towards military over a bunch of tree huggers pretending to be soldiers, but claiming they're not.

By investigating the Clone Army and discovering that they were created in part by the Sith, rather than one of their own acting on his own.

 

Exactly, the clones are made to obey orders and if they get an order to kill those they have been working with for years, they won't hesitate to do it.
The option to refuse orders due to their feelings about those orders doesn't really exist.
So they can't really be "loyal", they can only obey orders. And as long as they have no orders to kill you, they can work with you fine but one order and they will kill you.

So the Clones doesn't really "betray" the Jedi because they were never loyal to them. They had gotten orders to fight alongside the Jedi and they did that for some time. But once they got the order to kill the Jedi, they never hesitated.

Lastly, one thing from RotS is that the clone commanders get order 66 and then they only have to nod to the other clones and they seem to instantly know what to do. So it seems that all the clones knew that they would eventually kill all the Jedi and were just waiting for the go ahead order.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I don't think the Jedi should've fought in the war to begin with say nothing of using clones like fodder 'We're peacekeepers, Anakin, not warriors'. They betray their own ideals. There is other ways to answer violence than greater violence the Jedi appear to have forgotten this.

 

Events which weren't proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Hence Nute Gunray's freedom by the time of the Clone Wars and what happened on Ryloth could be seen as Republic propaganda. Likewise, the Senate granted the Federation certain rights to defend itself, only to turn around and revoke those rights, when it suited their purposes showed that the Senate was not acting on good faith. Not to mention chose to break agreements with the Federation because they got themselves into so much debt and then put so many restrictions on them, that the Republic was seen as a bully. There's a reason Dooku was able to gain ten thousand systems to rally behind the Confederacy.

That comes from fans generalizing since Lucas never shows how the Jedi handle recruitment, other than Anakin. As to taking by force, there was the whole Bardotta issue which the Jedi Council doesn't really clarify on what happened, other than saying it was a major sticking point in relations between the two and that a number in the Republic believed it.

No one. The Republic should either figure it out on their own, or fall and then pick the pieces afterwards.

It makes the Jedi look bad no matter what. By not showing it, the fandom accuses the Jedi of being morons for trusting an army that they didn't have a hand in creating. By having the Jedi learn more details, it does the same thing.

Which is why the war is won through Luke throwing down his Lightsaber and Anakin saving his son because he loves him and is willing to make a sacrifice.

 

The idea of "mind controlled" Order 66 really diminishes its emotional punch.

 

Well, not all Force-users...

 

How so? I think it makes it that much more emotional. The clones had no say in the matter, and were forced to turn on the Jedi, who they had fought alongside all throughout the war and formed close friendships with. They had been deceived and used by Palpatine to further his own goals, just as the Jedi and Separatists had.

In my opinion it's not as emotional if the clones followed the order like droids, not even giving a second thought to what they were about to do. I find it extremely hard to believe that Cody, who fought alongside Obi-Wan almost the entire war, wouldn't hesitate one bit and give the order to "Blast him!" The same goes for all the other clones. If they followed Order 66 immediately not because they were forced to, but because it was simply just another order, they are no better than droids.

 

I understand this view but don't agree. I think allies being forced against their will to betray those they trust and are sworn to help and defend is quite emotional and tragic. And the Jedi suddenly finding themselves being butchered by those allies isn't diminished at all seeing as how they all died confused and not understanding why the men they'd been fighting and sacrificing with for years were suddenly turning on them. And now instead of just feeling bad for the Jedi many fans feel bad for the clones as well. As I said in another post, it's an added layer of tragedy to an already deeply tragic event.

 

Yeah, before the Order 66 TCW arc I had no sympathy for the clones in RotS, but after seeing that arc I feel really bad for both the Jedi and clones. Heck, I even feel bad for the Separatists as well since the entire reason they left the Republic was because it was becoming corrupt (which it obviously did).

 

I think it works both ways, at least from the viewpoint of the Jedi getting shot. They don't know about a chip, to them the clones they had fought with just turned on them.

But the clones are being controlled as well.

I think it just adds an extra layer of tragedy to an already horrific event. And places even more blame on Sids for the whole affair.

^But the clones are a huge part of Order 66, focusing a backstory on them well before the actual event doesn't diminish the film's focus or impact on me. If anything, it gives me a greater appreciation for all the factors that led to it.

 

Jedi have NEVER been pacifists. The very fact that they train with lightsabers and aggressive Force moves demonstrates that conclusively.

Violence is the LAST resort of the Jedi, but they are well prepared to engage in it from an early age, and understand that sometimes it is the only solution. Negotiation on the macroscale had failed, and innocent lives were being threatened and harmed. Violence was entirely appropriate to that situation, and even then they tried to at least reduce the level of violence whenever possible. Hence Obi-Wan's nickname "the Negotiator", for example.

Discussed several times in Clone Wars (canon) as well as supplemental literature (EU, which was canon when written).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/"Baby_Ludi"_custody_case

 

It's still about the Jedi in my opinion. Everything was done to ultimately destroy the Jedi. Sure, Palpatine wanted to rule the galaxy, but with the way he set things up he could have won without destroying the Jedi. So even though I feel bad for the clones, as well as the Republic to a degree, it's the Jedi I feel the most for. It was their destruction that was the Sith's revenge. As I said, I understand why you and others feel the way you do, I just don't agree. For me Oder 66 is horribly tragic for everyone, and most of all for the Jedi.

Cevan

I don't feel bad for the Separatists at all. Wanting to leave the Republic and be independent was fine. But they were way more corrupt than the Republic ever was. And during the Clone Wars they committed war crime after war crime. TCW shows that.

 

Oh yeah, I definitely don't feel really bad for the Seps (probably should've phrased my previous post better), however I do feel a little bit bad since they were deceived by Sidious just as the Jedi and clones were.

 

Order 66 was tragic until "it's an added layer of tragedy to an already deeply tragic event".

The chip turns the clones into inherently good beings, because friends of the Jedi can't be evil, right?

The clones' loyalty was always to the Republic, not to the Jedi, and the latter grew closer to this army they had accepted. Randomly forcing the clones to turn against the Jedi because the chip says so makes the situation a lot more humorous, if anything. Being trained and to knowing the contingency orders, including 66, is more tragic because when the time comes how will the clones' react? They're Humans, with feelings, not preprogrammed droids with "anger" suppressing chips.