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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Dmasterman, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, the mental image of Cody having a chip was both cringe-worthy and hilarious. "Kill Jedi kill Jedi kill Jedi" indeed.

    GG nailed it. Palpatine declared all Jedi to be enemies of the Republic. The clones took orders from their Supreme Commander, the Chancellor of the Republic. Therefore they killed the Jedi following the command, which followed the declaration.

    I'm not sure why the clones should be retconned to be "too moral" to betray the Jedi.
     
    GGrievous likes this.
  2. Rabs

    Rabs Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 15, 2014

    That's not how I see it. Nothing left to really be said. The argument just becomes circular. At least we can all agree that the Jedi suffered the most out of the entire deal, and the brunt of the tragedy is theirs.
     
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  3. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 6, 2005
    Rabs I'll see it as the Jedi are at fault for trusting and believing in a mass army.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't see it as the Jedi being "at fault" for trusting them. For a thousand years they had had no reason not to trust the Republic; it makes sense that they would continue to trust it.
     
  5. Rabs

    Rabs Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 15, 2014

    Then we don't agree on anything I guess. I don't blame the Jedi for anything that happened. Blame lies with Palpatine and those that aided him willingly.
     
  6. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 6, 2005
    No, I'm not blaming the Jedi. I'm saying that the Jedi became too attached to the clones.
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    And yet, Nute Gunray was never convicted. Evidence to many how corrupt the Republic was when justice couldn't be met. To those that sided with the Confederacy, they saw it as proof that there was reasonable doubt about what went on. During the war, it would be seen as propaganda.

    Except a blockade would be legal under the right set of circumstances which is why Palpatine timed the event just so, when Valorum would be ineffectual and the Senate was mired in debate.

    Not everyone agreed with, much less acknowledged the EU. TCW raises doubts.

    The Republic needed to fall because the corruption was too great and the fear and arrogance of the people was such that the only way out was to let it burn to the ground. Then, and only then, would the truth become clear as to what was going on. That's why the Alliance succeeded.


    And that trust is why they're dead.
     
  8. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    The trust is why they're dead, but the blame still lies with their murderers.
     
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    But the questions isn't really if the Jedi should trust the Republic, at least not to me.
    It is more about the army itself and the Senate and it's leader.

    The first question, can they trust the Clone Army?
    Given the huge number of shady or questionable things that surrounds it, they have plenty of reason not to trust it. Who really ordered it, Jango working for Dooku, their archives have been tampered with etc.
    The Jedi also know that the Clones have been altered genetically to be less independent and totally obedient. So they know that trust or loyalty doesn't really enter into it. The Clones can't choose loyalty or feelings over following orders.

    Second question, can the Jedi trust the Senate and more importantly Palpatine.
    The Clone army is for the Republic and answers to the Senate of the chancellor would then have the highest rank in the chain of command. Back in TPM, the Jedi could see a Senate that refused to act on a planetary invasion, they even refuse to believe it even happened. If, say during the Cold War, that Hawaii was invaded by another country but the US senate refused to believe it happened and instead removed the President from office. How much would you trust it after that?
    So the Jedi have ample reason to think that the Senate isn't what it once was.
    About Palpatine, at the end of AotC he now has unprecedented powers, he is in some ways already Emperor. And now he has an army that will follow any order he gives without question.
    Do the Jedi trust him? In RotS they clearly have plenty of misgivings about him.

    Yes, outright refusing to use the clone army would in all likelihood be bad. The Jedi would be branded traitors and it would also give the seps a big edge in the war.
    But using the clone army, to me, isn't the same as trusting it. They can use but still take steps to keep it at arms length, to move some of their people and resources of Coruscant. Limit the number of Jedi in the field and so on.

    To me, the Jedi seemed clueless. They never questioned the fact that Jango worked with Dooku or what that could entail. They seemingly made no effort to dig deeper into the many mysteries surrounding the clone army. And no, EU doesn't count. I base my opinion on the films and only what is in the films. I don't give credit to things not in the films because it wasn't IN the films.
    So in RotS, despite them having grave doubts about Palpatine, the fact that he can order the clone army to do anything doesn't seem to occur to them.
    This weakened the drama around their deaths. No they didn't "deserve" to die but their deaths was in many ways caused by their own stupidity. And that made it less effective to me and Order 66 was in no ways a surprise to me. It was just something inevitable based on the previous film.
    It would be like in a movie where some guy is going to fly to Paris and he gets approached by some shady guy that he doesn't know and he gets a package to deliver. And he just takes it, no questions asked and even says "Hmm, it ticks, it must be a clock." And he boards the plane, it blows up and everyone dies. That isn't very tragic. Or it is tragic for all the other passengers but not for him.

    Cevan
    I partly agree and I have made this argument in other threads that it could have been more dramatic if the seps had been a genuine political movement with clear and understandable goals.
    As they are now, they came across as Sith stooges, nothing else. They do what they do because the Sith told them to.

    Imagine instead that in TPM, there is a growing movement among the planets on the edges of the republic. They feel that their voice isn't heard in the senate. That the senate is run in part by big consortium companies and only do things that favor big business and the rich core worlds.
    So they feel that they pay their taxes to the Republic but get nothing back. Then when the senate refuses to act against the TF, they are given even more arguments. Dooku is in TPM and argues that the Jedi should stop supporting an obviously corrupt senate but the council doesn't agree.
    At films end he and a few other Jedi leaves the order.
    Then in AotC the seps are now more organized and their demand is simple, we want to seceded from the republic. The seps are still mostly smaller worlds and Naboo is among them. This places Padme in a difficult spot, she still thinks the Republic can be saved but she also must follow the wishes of her people. The seps have no army on their own but war mongers in the senate is threatening to use force to stop them from leaving. So they are the ones who get a clone army.
    Then war starts and now in an ironic twist, the TF and other big companies are on the side of the republic and clones are the enemy. Dooku is not a Sith, he is just a renegade Jedi.
    However, he has been used by Palpatine, who has agents among the seps.
    So both sides can be seen as having a worthwhile cause but both are used by Palpatine.
    We still have some of that in the PT as it is but to me it would have had more of a dramatic punch if those involved had been acting more independently and not just as Sith pawns.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
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  10. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    But they ARE part of a Sith plot. How else is PalpSidious going to eliminate the Jedi Order? He couldn't fight them all by himself or even with Anakin's help because the Jedi still outnumber them 10,000 to 2. PalpSidious created the clone armies and bred them with the sole purpose of killing the Jedi under his command. To ensure that the clone armies follow his orders without question, PalpSidious demanded the kaminoans to implant bio micro chips in each clone's heads.
     
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    But, based on the film, the Kamino people thought that a Jedi had placed the order. So wouldn't they wonder about such a specific "Kill all Jedi" device being put into the clones? The clones are made to be totally obedient, that was normal. This chip seems to be beyond the normal things done to clones.
    Thus it could generate questions among the Kamino people. And they could mention this to Obi-Wan, which Palpatine would not want.

    Even stranger, some here argue that Palpatine planned for the Jedi to find the clone army and went out of his way to ensure that they did find it. So he wanted the Jedi to talk to the Kamino people and be allowed to poke around and ask questions. Isn't there a risk that this chip thing would have become known?

    If the Kamino people thought that the chip was "normal", they would not see a reason not to mention it to Obi-Wan or what ever Jedi that came to them. If they knew that the ultimate goal of the army was the destruction of the Jedi order, wouldn't they wonder why a Jedi wants this? And isn't there a risk by having a Jedi poke around and ask them questions? Jedi can sometimes sense deception so they could sense something from the Kamino people. Also there is a matter of secrecy, if anyone involved in the clone process was sympathetic to the Jedi, the risk is that the secret gets out.

    If instead the Clones are totally obedient and will follow ANY order not matter what. Then a chip isn't needed. The Kamino people have no reason to suspect anything odd as this army is no different to any other they have made. And the Jedi can't find out anything extra suspicious as they already know that the clones always obey orders.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Problem is - one needs to ensure that clones won't obey orders given by the enemy. Or civilians. They need to only obey orders given by a "duly constituted authority".
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    The solution is to ensure that only certain authority figures are put in charge of the clones. Not put a chip in.

    Samuel Vimes has a point. A Jedi ordering an army with an inhibitor chip that would make it kill all Jedi is really off-base, and the Kaminoans should have asked "WTF?"
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    If the inhibitor chip itself is "blank" until the appropriate Target is put in, the Kaminoans wouldn't have that worry.
     
  15. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    Well, based on the clone wars cartoon, the kaminoans seem to be well aware of the "kill all Jedi" command that is imbedded in the bio chips. They're now doing business with both PalpSidious and Dooku, who supplied them with the bio chips which is why the kaminoans obeyed their command to terminate both commander Tupes and commander Fives so that neither clone would inform the Jedi about the secret command placed in the chips. As far as PalpSidious is concerned (going by the movies and cartoon), the existence of a clone army, Darth Sidious controlling the Republic, and the fact that Dooku hired Jango Fett to be the host for this clone army is all the Jedi know. They have no clue about the bio chips or that Palpatine is Sidious until it is too late.
     
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  16. Rabs

    Rabs Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 15, 2014

    Kaminoans don't care what the clones they create are used for. They really don't have much in the way of morals and they're quite greedy and view themselves above all other species. You got the credits and they'll make you clones no questions asked. At least that's how they're described in the now Legends EU. And based on how they are depicted in TCW I'd say that's how it is in the new canon as well.
     
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  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Not really the point. The "WTF?" wouldn't be a morality question.

    I would expect a "Hey, are you idiots suicidal or something? LOL". The Kaminoans don't look immoral for not asking, or at least not having a LOL moment among themselves about it. They just look stupid.

    Regardless, my original point still stands, and I'll repeat this question:

    Was there any reason to include an inhibitor chip after AOTC and ROTS, other than what GG said, some idea about how friends of the Jedi can't be evil, or "oh ****, people got attached to the clones in TCW, they can't do anything immoral now"?

    Because both of those reasons are pretty stupid.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    How about "the clones were established in previous TCW episodes to be capable of disobeying orders that they considered immoral". The Krell arc in particular springs to mind.
     
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    That's what I would call "writing themselves into a corner" and "giving more thought to making people like the clones than to continuity with the movies."
     
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    We don't see the clones interacting much with anybody in the movies. The series resulted in them being fleshed out much more - but it also led to the aforementioned issue. The chip was an attempt to resolve the writer dilemma.
     
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    This conversation is starting to get circular and it's coming down to whether we like the idea of the clones being incapable of betraying the Jedi or being equal victims of Order 66. And there's really no arguing personal preference.

    But as far as the "writer dilemma," they brought that upon themselves. They could have given the clones personalities without having Cut desert, or having the clones shoot Krell in the back (contradicting the movies just with that one scene).
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    How does it contradict the movies? If your commanding officer has proven themselves to be a traitor, then they are no longer Authority and need not be obeyed.

    If anything it's foreshadowing - shooting Jedi in the back is what we see in RoTS.

    In Brain Invaders, after they've been brain-invaded, one of the clones says "If there's one thing we clones know, it's how to take down a Jedi."
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    On Krell--conceded, as they shot him after he revealed himself as a Separatist.

    I liked that line in Brain Invaders but it definitely makes the chip and the entire Order 66 arc look like an afterthought, if the clones only knew how to take down a Jedi when the chip was activated.

    So much for "nightmares" too.
     
  24. Cevan

    Cevan Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 16, 2013
    In the Order 66 arc, Tyranus says right to the Kaminoans that Sifo-Dyas had Order 66 implemented in the event that a Jedi commander would go rogue. As was said before, the Kaminoans are pretty greedy and don't have great morals at all. They are just businesspeople. This coupled with Tyranus and Sifo-Dyas' reasoning for the order would clear up any questions they had.
     
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  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    OK, let me pose a different question:

    What happened before TCW ever aired that warranted a chip explanation?

    Several of you are confirming what I already thought: that portrayals in TCW meant that TCW needed a chip explanation.

    The clones were around in two movies, no chip explanation needed as far as I'm concerned.

    Or to put it another way--if the arc with Cut had not happened, and if the clones had never been seen questioning orders or questioning the war in TCW, would the chip have been needed?

    As far as the Kaminoans--good, they don't have morals, I never expected them to, given what Dex said to Obi-Wan in AOTC. But that was never the point.