Origin of Midichlorians

We all know the apparent similarities of Luca's midichlorians to biology's mitochondria. However, where GL got this idea may not be originally from biology. GL's concept of 'the Force' and other elements of Jedi teaching in the saga originate from Eastern thinking(namely Buddism and Taoism). The idea of midichlorians is described on the 'Jedism' website.

"Chinese philosophers will talk about chi as a microcosmical 'matter-energy' which is fundamental in forming and governing the universe. Perhaps this is what George Lucas referred to in his brief yet somewhat insufficient explanation in The Phantom
Menace which makes reference to the 'Midichlorians' (the organisms which allow the Jedi to manipulate the Force.) And the traditional Chinese physician, usually also a Taoist by education, speaks about a microbiomaterial that circulates within the body, maintaining the living force that makes the body function."


Any thoughts?

 

could very well be, but mitochondria seems more logical since most people know about them in real life....but who knows whats going on in georgie boy's head?

 

>>>>"Chinese philosophers will talk about chi as a microcosmical 'matter-energy' which is fundamental in forming and governing the universe. Perhaps this is what George Lucas referred to in his brief yet somewhat insufficient explanation in The Phantom Menace which makes reference to the 'Midichlorians' (the organisms which allow the Jedi to manipulate the Force.)

To me, "Chi" sounds very much like the idea of the Force. But not midichlorians.

>>>>And the traditional Chinese physician, usually also a Taoist by education, speaks about a microbiomaterial that circulates within the body, maintaining the living force that makes the body function."

That does sound more similar, although it's not something I'd heard of before.

Where is the "jedism" website?

 

Another easy question! Midichlorians are just the Star Wars galaxy's name for DNA. DNA decides everything about what makes us who we are. When Qui-Gon Jinn did the blood test on Anakin, he merely did a DNA test.

 

The description of midichlorians as "microscopic life forms that life inside our cells" doesn't apply to DNA though. It DOES apply to mitochondria, which provide the cell with the energy they need to live, and actually have their own DNA, independant of the "host" DNA (ie. the cells they live in.)

Their origins are thought to predate multicellular organisms; the theory being that when these prehistoric precursors to mitochondria started living in symbiosis with single celled life forms (the cells provided an ideal environment for them to live, and they provided energy to the cells), they provided enough energy to trigger the evolutionary step to more complex, multicellular life forms. (Which, in turn, is a bit closer to the evolutionary step of developing consciousness.)

So you could say that without the mitochondria, life as we know it could not exist...

 

George suffers from Type II Diabetes. A characteristic of people who have this disease is dysfunctional mitochondria in their pancreatic beta cells. These cells normally create insulin, but in George?s case they do not create enough?the mitochondria in those cells do not generate enough energy so that each beta cell can carry out its requisite task of creating insulin. Current research into curing this disease includes finding a way to genetically cure the dysfunctional mitochondria in those cells.

Moreover, cancer is caused when cells do not die when they?re supposed to. Cell death is controlled by a process called apoptosis, where the mitochondria in each cell release a chemical called cytochrome c that causes the cell to break down and die. In cancerous cells, the mitochondria in them are dysfunctional and do not release cytochrome c when the cell comes to the end of its life cycle.

It?s clear to me because of George?s own disease and his analogies to the Sith being the cancer of the SW universe that he was clearly thinking of mitochondria when he created midi-chlorians.

 

good responses

And the Jedism website is at www.jediism.org

 

George suffers from Type II Diabetes. A characteristic of people who have this disease is dysfunctional mitochondria in their pancreatic beta cells. These cells normally create insulin, but in George?s case they do not create enough?the mitochondria in those cells do not generate enough energy so that each beta cell can carry out its requisite task of creating insulin. Current research into curing this disease includes finding a way to genetically cure the dysfunctional mitochondria in those cells.

That's actually a rare form of Type II. Most type II diabetes patients (60-80%) are able to make insulin but their tissues stop responding to it.

 

This is all very interesting.

Lucas based much of the Jedi on Eastern culture. Everything from their clothing, to their ideas, their fighting styles and even the Jedi Temple seems a bit of Asian influenced. The Jedi are much like the Samuri of Japan.

Darth Seldon

 

May be worthwhile to point out that Lucas arrived at the terminology of "The Force" after reading Carlos Castaneda. I get the impression that the ideas & phrases found in Castaneda's writings gave him an avenue with which to coalesce the areas he was working from.

As far as the midichlorians go, for a less biological and more esoteric explanation, a read through of Castanedas FIRE FROM WITHIN provides another input into the matter.

We find there something called the eagles emanations - a conduit between sentient beings and the unknowable force of life (called the Eagle in Castandedas parlance). They aren't the force itself, merely what can be explained of it.

 

"he was clearly thinking of mitochondria when he created midi-chlorians."

Even when he refers to midi's as "bacteria" in the Ep.I Making-of book? ?

 

>>>> Even when he refers to midi's as "bacteria" in the Ep.I Making-of book?

Yes, even when he refers to them as ?bacteria.? Mitochondria are the remnants of primordial bacteria.

 

...assuming he took all that into account, of course.

"The issue of Immaculate Conception is a motif that runs through all religions. It's a motif that runs through all stories about the local deity or the local hero. It's the same thing with Hercules. Most heroes are conceived in an unusual way. And in this particular case, it's actually not Immaculate Conception, it's conception by metaphor, I would say, more than anything else. I'm taking the idea of symbiotic relationships and trying to demonstrate it in a more concrete way. (this and the next quote)

Midichondrians are a loose depiction of mitochondria, which are necessary components for cells to divide. They probably had something--which will come out someday--to do with the beginnings of life and how one cell decided to become two cells with a little help from this other little creature who came in, without whom life couldn't exist. And it's really a way of saying we have hundreds of little creatures who live on us, and without them, we all would die. There wouldn't be any life. They are necessary for us; we are necessary for them. Using them in the metaphor, saying society is the same way, says we all must get along with each other. The planet is the same way. We must treat the other creatures on the planet with respect, otherwise the planet will die." - Lucas

Apparently, Lucas wasn't following the hard scientific basis to the "T" after all.

 

>>>> ...assuming he took all that into account, of course.

Do you have a point?

---

The issue of Immaculate Conception is a motif that runs through all religions. It's a motif that runs through all stories about the local deity or the local hero. It's the same thing with Hercules. Most heroes are conceived in an unusual way. And in this particular case, it's actually not Immaculate Conception, it's conception by metaphor, I would say, more than anything else. I'm taking the idea of symbiotic relationships and trying to demonstrate it in a more concrete way. [b]Midi-chlorians are a loose depiction of mitochondria, which are necessary components for cells to divide. They probably had something?which will come out someday?to do with the beginnings of life and how one cell decided to become two cells with a little help from this other little creature who came in, without whom life couldn't exist.[/b] And it's really a way of saying we have hundreds of little creatures who live on us, and without them, we all would die. There wouldn't be any life. They are necessary for us; we are necessary for them. Using them in the metaphor, saying society is the same way, says we all must get along with each other. The planet is the same way. We must treat the other creatures on the planet with respect, otherwise the planet will die.

? George Lucas, [link=http://www.eonline.com/News/More/lucas5.html]E!Online Press Conference[/link], 1999[hr][/blockquote]FYI, George is referring to the Endosymbiotic Theory.

 

"Do you have a point? "

Funny, your quote looks very similar to mine.

"FYI, George is referring to the Endosymbiotic Theory."

No, he's referring to a "loose depiction" of said theory. Once again, you are confusing a similarity for a one-to-one correspondence.

"Bringing midichlorians into it as a device is something that existed from the beginning, but I never had the time to go into any explanation, because any time these rather larger concepts come into play - you know, 'How does the galaxy work? What is the Force?' - you have to be very sort of cryptic and deal in almost fortune-cookie descriptions. And it's very difficult to get a concept across. But I figured in this movie I could begin to bring out the concept of midichlorians and their job in being sensitive to the Force, and why some people are more susceptible to the Force than others - which is an issue that's in [A New Hope], but you never know why the Force is strong with some people and not strong with other people. What is the device that causes that to happen?"

"We also get into this thing of 'What are midichlorians? How do they work?' Which advances a little bit the story of the Force and how does the Force work and how do we come to know the Force - which is part of Anakin's training in learning to become a Jedi, and to take the idea of the Force one step further. The midichlorians are sort of a side issue - not the metaphysical, spiritual side of the Force, but the more practical, biological, physical part of the Force, or how we come to know the Force - which has to do with the genetics of why some people are more attuned to the Force than others." - Lucas

Lucas is simply using this to set up the story. He's not trying to give a science lesson on the origins of primordial bacteria. He's stated several times that all the technology is taken for granted in the films, and he doesn't bother trying to explain it beyond the needs of the story. Hell, midis have only been mentioned in TPM. They've served their purpose.

 

>>>> Funny, your quote looks very similar to mine.

Yes, it?s hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>>> No, he's referring to a "loose depiction" of said theory. Once again, you are confusing a similarity for a one-to-one correspondence.

I was just making the point that George knew that mitochondria were once bacteria.

>>>> Lucas is simply using this to set up the story. He's not trying to give a science lesson on the origins of primordial bacteria. He's stated several times that all the technology is taken for granted in the films, and he doesn't bother trying to explain it beyond the needs of the story. Hell, midis have only been mentioned in TPM. They've served their purpose.

Who in the hell cares? Were talking about the ?Origin of Midichlorians.? I don?t think anyone in this thread said that George is trying to give a science lesson.

 

"Yes, it's hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Glad you agree.

"I was just making the point that George knew that mitochondria were once bacteria."

Actually, your point was a little more than just that...

"Were talking about the "Origin of Midichlorians."

---

[b]"It's clear to me because of George's own disease and his analogies to the Sith being the cancer of the SW universe that he was clearly thinking of mitochondria when he created midi-chlorians."[/b][/i][/blockquote]
While your research is commenable, it's your [i]conclusions[/i] that stretch credibility. That being said, your [i]current[/i] point makes much more sense than the earlier point...

...but, like you said, [i]"Who in the hell cares?"[/i]

 

>>>> While your research is commenable, it's your conclusions that stretch credibility. That being said, your current point makes much more sense than the earlier point...

So what are you saying? George didn?t base midi-chlorians on mitochondria?

 

"So what are you saying? George didn?t base midi-chlorians on mitochondria?"

Of course not, silly... That concept is supported by direct quotes from Lucas.

I was referring to your conclusion that the whole concept of midis was brought about by Lucas due to his diabetes. There's simply no cause-and-effect here.

 

Actually GL has been misinformed. Anakin's existance is more of an incarnation. Immaculate Conception is rather conception "without original sin".

Incarnation is "the word made flesh". "...Son of Suns...." But Anakin was basically tempted and fell into it.

Now back to your regular programming

 

"Actually GL has been misinformed. Anakin's existance is more of an incarnation. Immaculate Conception is rather conception "without original sin"."

Actually, if you read the quote again, you'll see this isn't what Lucas said. Although he did't use "incarnation", he's basically stating what you did.

 

>>>> Of course not, silly... That concept is supported by direct quotes from Lucas.

Then what was the point of remarks like this:

---

Even when he refers to midi's as "bacteria" in the Ep.I Making-of book?[hr][/blockquote]>>>>[b][i] I was referring to your conclusion that the whole concept of midis was brought about by Lucas due to his diabetes. There's simply no cause-and-effect here.[/i][/b]

There are many things that lead George to recreate real-world mitochondria as [i]SW[/i] midi-chlorians, one of which just happened to be George?s own disease. As I also said, mitochondria have a significant role in the formation of cancer cells (three of George?s friends have died of cancer). Not to mention that mitochondria are thought to cause rapid ageing in real-world clones. Not to mention that George set out to create a new myth based on the [i]Gaia Hypothesis[/i], which, as we?ve discussed before, goes hand in hand with Lynn Margulis?s endosybiotic theory that George makes reference to in the aforementioned quotes.

 

Actually, if you read the quote again, you'll see this isn't what Lucas said. Although he did't use "incarnation", he's basically stating what you did.

My bad. Your right. I guess GL 1 Openmind 0

 

"There are many things that lead George to recreate real-world mitochondria as SW midi-chlorians, one of which just happened to be George?s own disease. As I also said, mitochondria have a significant role in the formation of cancer cells (three of George?s friends have died of cancer). Not to mention that mitochondria are thought to cause rapid ageing in real-world clones. Not to mention that George set out to create a new myth based on the Gaia Hypothesis , which, as we?ve discussed before, goes hand in hand with Lynn Margulis?s endosybiotic theory that George makes reference to in the aforementioned quotes "

All fine and dandy, but if this is the level of proof needed to convince you, then I guess there's no point debating it. Personally, I'm reminded of the people who believe Darth Vader was named as such because Vader means "Father" in Dutch. For some people, simple coincidence can apparently be too much to discount.

Then there are the Cloners who point at the lack of evidence of for their hunch as "proof' of their hunch. Go figure.

Oh well...

"My bad. Your right."

No problem. It was worded awkwardly.

 

>>>> All fine and dandy, but if this is the level of proof needed to convince you, then I guess there's no point debating it. Personally, I'm reminded of the people who believe Darth Vader was named as such because Vader means "Father" in Dutch. For some people, simple coincidence can apparently be too much to discount.

That?s totally different and you know it. The fact that George goes into these things in detail?mitochondria, cancer, cloning, diabetes, the Gaia Hypothesis, the Endosymbiotic Theory?in his Academy of Achievement Interview, not to mention that he and Ben Burtt have made IMAX films based on these themes, suggests that it?s not just a coincidence that they have made their way into the story of SW. These are not novel conclusions that I have come up with on my own, but rather they are things that have come out of the mouth of George Lucas himself.