Original storyline regarding Anakin and Vader

If this is elsewhere (which I'm sure it is) could a mod please edit this post with a link.

I've always assumed that when ANH came out, Vader was not intended to be Luke and Leia's father, and Luke and Leia were not intended to be twins. Is this assumption correct, or did George Lucas plan that all along?

 

I don't think he planned it to begin with. I'm pretty sure the actors didn't know about it until it came up.

 

That's correct. Vader wasn't going to be Luke's father until TESB, and Leia wasn't his sister until RotJ.

 

Luke and Leia were definitely not twins, but I'm pretty sure Lucas at least had the possibility of Vader being Luke's father in his head.

 

Originally Anakin was literally betrayed and burdered by Vader.

Luke wasn't Leia's brother originally either.

-Jedi Master Zax Starwalker

 

Ditto to all.

 

I think it was revealed that whilst Vader as Luke's dad was a concept that had been batted around a bit in Lucas's head before it was decided on in ESB, the Luke=Leia thing was a complete last minute Macguffin to tie up the Saga in ROTJ rather then what was originally planned with the 3 more films.

UKS

 

I think there's something that none of you are considering here. Let's set aside when the two characters,Anakin & Vader, became one person and consider from a literary point of view how and why this might have came about. The subplot of Anakin BECOMING Vader may have happened by accident, and then was retained and expounded upon (probably after ANH's release) because it gave more literary sense to the overall story of Star Wars. I don't think it was part of GL's master plan either.
For how this happened, consider some facts. Anakin was only referred to in ANH & ESB as only "Luke's father." Why do you think this was the case? Yes the name Anakin, or more correctly Annikin, was in the screenplay versions prior to the final shooting script, but then that particular character was substantially different than the Anakin Skywalker that we know. But in the final shooting script, not even a name. Not even as a character description! I believe that this meant that GL wiped the slate clean when writing the final script, pretty much creating the backstory from scratch. I believe that both Vader and "Luke's father"'s charactery histories were barely fleshed out. This Vader was also not the same as the one that appeared in previous scripts.
Let's say sometime, (again, maybe after ANH, but it doesn't matter) GL wrote the complete histories of all the major characters. When writing Skywalker and Vader's, their histories sort of converged. Think about it: two jedi knights, both with a close connection with Obi-Wan Kenobi. Also the safekeeping of Skywalker's son and how this could have been sustained if Vader was on a special mission to wipe out all Jedi. Whatever conflict GL could have used to cause Vader turn to the dark side, it made sense to transfer this to Anakin Skywalker, thus making more sense of why he would not return to Tatooine to look for Kenobi or the Skywalker boy. What do you all think?

 

i think thats a prett good assumpion boshi very good job

 

I just watched ANH last night for the first time in a while, and I was intrigued by Owen's comment regarding being afraid of Luke being too much like his father. Even though we've established that Vader probably wasn't Luke's father at this point, that comment at least suggests the possibility was in Lucas' mind. And as another person said, Anakin and Vader kind of had similiar histories accoring to what Obi Wan said, opening the door for their characters to converge. Furthermore, Ben's pause before telling Luke what happened to his father can now be interpreted as him taking a deep breath before he has to straight face lie to Luke. All in all that scene fits fairly well with what we know except for one thing hat bothers me, the bit about Owen being scared Luke will follow Obi Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade. This comment suggests a stronger connection between Owen and Anakin than what we have seen in the PT. Still, overall it fits quite well.

 

Having said that, when Ben drops off Luke in E3, perhaps Owen might say something like "so you're the one who led Anakin on that damn fooled crusade, look where it got the both of you". Total fanwank I know, but I'd enjoy the reference.

 

I envision Obi-Wan expressing to Owen that he needs to leave Luke with him and Beru, to keep him safe from detection by the Emperor and Vader, and that later on, when he's older and when the time is right, he'll train him as a Jedi. Owen, fearing Anakin's fate will befall Luke, then tells Obi-Wan that if he wants them to raise Luke, then Luke will not be permitted to become a Jedi, he'll live the life of a farmer and that's it. Obi-Wan, seeing no choice and deciding to leave things to destiny, just agrees and leaves, resolving to watch Luke from a distance.

 

Actually, I was quite dissappointed for some reason when I knew Vader is Luke's father. But, again the whole story makes sense a lot this way. I can't imagin how ESB and ROTJ could be done having Vader literaly a guy who kills Luke's father. The saber duels would be completely brutal, but finally end up same crap like other movies. Having Vader being Luke's father makes the saber duels dramatic and unique.

 

. . . but I'm pretty sure Lucas at least had the possibility of Vader being Luke's father in his head.

I saw an interview with Lucas where he was talking about the father thing and he said, "I always knew Vader was going to be Luke's father, so I knew revealing that secret, if and when I got the opportunity to do so, would be a real shock for the audience."

 

I saw an interview with Lucas where he was talking about the father thing and he said, "I always knew Vader was going to be Luke's father, so I knew revealing that secret, if and when I got the opportunity to do so, would be a real shock for the audience."
How many times have we heard Lucas say that he "always planned it that way" when in fact a lot has been improvised over the years? Just as Leia wasn't going to be Luke's sister if episodes 7-9 had happened, so the whole Anakin/Vader thing must have gone through many different versions in his head. I think he went the right way with it though, it's much more powerful to have Vader as Luke's father. It could all have been so different...

 

I don't know what the original story on Vader being Luke's father is but I know for sure there was something up with it in A New Hope. Regardless of what anyone says about Vader not originally being Luke's father I have to bring up the way Obi-Wan explains it to Luke, he pauses before he tells Luke that Vader murdered his father and the pause was done in such a way as to let the viewers of the movie know that there is really something up here, he's either lying or hiding something.

Once you see ESB, it all makes sense but if you look at A New Hope by itself I think it is very obvious that there is something not quite right with the explaination given to Luke. To me that pause from Obi-wan is SO obvious it slaps you in the face. Please tell me I am not the only one to see this.

 

You're not the only one to see this SITHlover , I've always liked Ben's cageyness at this point, especially given the way the rest of the saga plays out. It ties in perfectly with the "certain point of view" explanation given in ROTJ. I think you can look at it 2 ways though. If you imagine that when ANH was released, Vader may or may not have been Luke's father, Ben's explanation to Luke could either:

1) be seen as cagey and a half-truth (because Anakin & Vader are the same person)

or

2) it may have been difficult for Ben to find the words to tell Luke that a former pupil of his had murdered Luke's dad. (if, at this point in the story, Lucas still intended Vader and Anakin to be separate entities)

I think Ben's reaction fits both scenarios. But as I posted earlier, I feel that Vader=Anakin was by far the best way for the story to go. Otherwise the saga could have been a simple revenge mission for Luke to avenge his father's death at Vader's hands. And as we all know, revenge is not a Jedi trait!

 

vaughanskywalker

Good point about the Owen thing. Upon reading this thread, I was going to bring that up, myself, but after reading your post I saw that I didn't have to.

Anyways...
If you all watch the video FROM STAR WARS TO JEDI: THE MAKING OF A SAGA that was created back in the mid-eighties, you will hear Lucas say that Vader being Lukes father was always the original storyline, however, he also says that it wasn't until they were actually filming the "I am your father" scene when George decided if he should actually go through with it. This is when he says that since it WAS always the original story, that it was best to keep it that way. More proof that it was always intended for Vader to be Luke's father is in Vader's name. Vader means "father" in Dutch. He used the word "Darth" as a form of the word "dark". Darth Vader. Dark Father.

 

I think he must have had it in mind as a potential plot from the beginning. Just what do you make of the fact the name Darth Vader is very close to the Dutch words meaning Dark Father?

 

"This is when he says that since it WAS always the original story, that it was best to keep it that way. More proof that it was always intended for Vader to be Luke's father is in Vader's name. Vader means "father" in Dutch. He used the word "Darth" as a form of the word "dark". Darth Vader. Dark Father."

"Just what do you make of the fact the name Darth Vader is very close to the Dutch words meaning Dark Father?"

Wrong on both counts, folks...

---

[i]"Darth is the combination of the first and last two letters of " DArk Lord of the SiTH".

It´s an EU thing, but a good one!"[/i]

Incorrect on both counts, since "Darth Vader" was the character's full name in early writings of Star Wars.

From [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12490176]Opinions of the Sith Lord title "Darth"[/link]
[blockquote][i][b]12. GOVERNOR HOEDAACK'S QUARTERS - ALDERAAN

The large, white-on-white executive quarters resound with the high-pitched
laugh of the evil Governor Hoedaack. He slaps Darth Vader, a tall, grim-
looking general, on the back, and the general's mouth makes the slightest
gesture at a smile.
______________________________

HOEDAACK
[hl=white]Darth[/hl], you've done well. Do you think you will have the Royal Family by
nightfall?

VADER
An advance expedition is already on its way to their underground hideaway.
They should reach it by nightfall... but only if this Count Sandage can be
trusted.
______________________________

66. LIBRARY - PALACE OF LITE - AQUILAE

The king's old library has been converted into an office for [hl=white]General Vader[/hl].
He is sitting behind his desk as Prince Valorum, the black knight of Sith,
enters and salutes. The black knight is dressed in the fascist black and
chrome uniform of the legendary Sith One Hundred. The general returns his
salute.

VADER
Welcome, Prince Valorum. Your exploits are legendary. [hl=white]I have long waited to
meet a Knight of the Sith.[/hl] If there is any way I can assist you, my entire
command is at your bidding.

VALORUM
I want a tie-in to your computer network, a control center, and communication
access.

VADER
Right away! I'll also transfer all information we have on the general. His
command post was self-destroyed, but we believe he is still alive.... Do you
really believe he's a Jedi?[/b][/i] - [link=http://www.geocities.com/jjehrnwa/scripts/sw_rough-draft.zip]The Star Wars: first draft[/link][/blockquote]
As you can see, "Darth Vader" isn't even a Sith. The name simply sounded cool to Lucas. This is also evidence against the myth of the Dutch translation of "Dark Father". It is merely a coincidence, since he isn't even related to Luke in the early stories.
______________________

[i]"And Lucas took it like that meaning father of luke obviously. he said that like years ago"[/i]

First of all, what's the point in Palpatine giving Anakin a name referring to "father" if Palpatine isn't supposed to know about Anakin's children?[blockquote][b]Obi-wan - [i]To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous[/i][/b][/blockquote]Secondly, not only will you [u]not[/u] find a Lucas quote stating that fact, but here is an early draft of Star Wars.

[link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12153876&start=12381820]Where does the name VADER comes from??[/link]

[blockquote][i][b]"May 1974--After working for more than a year, George completed the first draft screenplay to The Star Wars. The story introduced the Jedi Bendu, who were the chief architects of the invincible Imperial Space Force and personal bodyguards of the Emperor, and pitted them against the evil Knights of the Sith, a sinister warrior sect. [hl=white]The hero Annikin Starkiller, eighteen, his younger brother Deak, and their father Kane[/hl] - the last of the Jedi Bendu - have been hiding out on the desert planet of Utapau

 

MeBe, I think I love you.

 

Okay... Time to dust off the old English-Dutch translation dictionary. Here you go:

http://dictionaries.travlang.com/EnglishDutch/dict.cgi?query=father&max=200


Result of search for "father":

Father Christmas
1. Kerstman
2. Kerstman

church-father
1. kerkvader

father-in-law
1. schoonvader

father
1. ouder, papa, pater, vaartje, vader

foster-father
1. pleegvader

step-father
1. stiefvader
2. stiefvader


Wow... Look at all the times "vader" is seen. Amazing, isn't it?

Although, I didn't say that "Darth" was a dutch word, I just said that lucas meant it as a form of the word "dark".

 

"I just said that lucas meant it as a form of the word "dark".

Got any proof on that?

"Wow... Look at all the times "vader" is seen. Amazing, isn't it?"

And not just in your dictionary. What's even more amazing is that the word "Vader" also appears in another book- Lucas' high school yearbook, decades before he even wrote Star Wars. Seems that the "influence" for the name comes from a different source.

Though I'm sure your dictionary is a very nice book, too. Try looking up "coincidence".

 

Following your argument...

Ric Olié

Danish word olie means oil in English. Guess George Lucas always planned this lovable pilot to be a natural resource.

Edit: And Ric could be taken from the word rich.