CT Original unaltered Trilogy on Blu ray?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Doug625, Nov 15, 2012.

  1. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    By the Force, someone who acknowledges that fans can have differing opinions on things and at the same time, does not belittle those who would disagree with him. You sir, have just earned my respect. ^_^
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  2. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    Thanks :)

    I always thought it was silly to argue about the OOT vs SE, because whenever you have two different versions of any work of art, fans are going to take different sides. If I were ever able to talk to Mr. Lucas, I would have told him that I don't hate the SE, I just LOVE the OOT! How could he find fault with that?
    Seagoat likes this.
  3. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2013
    star 2
    Whoever complains about Hayden at the end of Jedi clearly fails to get Star Wars as a whole.
  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Lolz.

    For some of us Hayden-Anakin never was a good man. He was already a slaughterer of children in AOTC. So why would his redeemed self look like a slaughterer of children who was just as bad as his Darth Vader persona?

    Actually Lloyd would be more acceptable as force ghost than Hayden. At least 9 year old Annie was still innocent.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 25, 2013
  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I only got to see the OOT as non-anamorphic LD-rip. :(

    But even then I knew I preferred it because I think CGI-Jabba, Ronto butts, the Jabba palace singers and so on take you straight out of the movie. The combination of old Fx and the 80ties style of the characters with modern CGI is downright jarring. The new effects seem so out of place. I don't mind new CGI in a new movie, but older movies like the OT or something like Blade Runner really suffer if CGI is inserted retroactively.

    And I am one of those who grew up with the SE so I am not preferring the OOT out of nostalgia.
  6. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't quite understand this. The point of the ghost (whichever you prefer) wasn't to show Anakin/Vader as innocent. Sebastian Shaw certainly was never an innocent.

    Not saying you're not allowed to prefer Shaw, but the Shaw ghost is just as guilty of everything Anakin did as the Hayden ghost is.
  7. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think the point she is making is that some have justified the use of Hayden as the Anakin force ghost by saying that he has been redeemed. Which makes little sense, because that version of Anakin was no better than Shaw.

    So while you are right that Shaw Anakin would have been guilty, so would Hayden Anakin, so why make the change?
    TOSCHESTATION and Darth_Pevra like this.
  8. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Shaw was clearly a "different man" as the hair on his head and the Jedi clothes show. He is someone who changed and became a better human being.

    Hayden on the other hand symbolizes regression into a past state not better than his Sith-self.
  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Could be a number of reasons:

    Continuity

    Hayden's appearance being the way Anakin remembers himself -- the Shaw ghost is a version of Anakin that never really existed physically

    Acting as a mirror -- when Anakin finally chooses to completely rid himself of the Dark Side, he reverts to how he was when he willingly succumbed

    Maybe since Padmé died so young, Anakin might think it would be creepy if he came up to her as the Shaw ghost? :p

    I don't know honestly. That's one for Lucas to answer. I like both but prefer Hayden simply because I have more of an attachment to his image as Anakin. Though I can see why those who didn't like his portrayal wouldn't like the Hayden force ghost.

    But it's odd to me to suggest that it's a matter of innocence.
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I really don't see the point of this, though. I get that it's symbolic and all, but no matter which version of Anakin appears, he is responsible for doing the same things and made the same choices.

    I don't think that the Hayden ghost represents regression, personally, but rather freedom and coming to terms with who you are and what you've done. But we can agree to disagree. :)
  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The scene always held huge symbolic meaning, so not discussing symbolism seems ... illogical. If you think PT-Anakin was a good man gone bad it might work for you but not all of us hold this opinion.
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It was Shaw Anakin that turned on the Emperor, it was Shaw Anakin that we see on the Death Star in his final moments with Luke.
    vinsanity and CaptainHamYoyo like this.
  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    I tend to agree. We don't see a Hero fall, we see an emotionally stunted dolt get conned.
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I'm not saying the symbolism isn't important, but it can't undo the reality of the situation: no matter which version of Anakin is shown, he's responsible for the same actions. Showing a healed Shaw doesn't wipe away Anakin's sins -- he isn't a "different" man, he's a redeemed man.

    My opinion is simply that the Hayden ghost symbolizes Anakin as he saw himself and of acceptance and repentance of his sins and his flaws. For me, it isn't about wiping the slate clean as it is about accepting responsibility. He isn't trying to be someone else, to be a "different" man so much as he is accepting his wrongdoings and his failures and repenting of them.

    Not saying you have to agree :p, but that's the way I look at it.

    I just didn't see how innocence factored into the equation is all.
    ezekiel22x likes this.
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think it symbolizes Lucas's need to screw up his own movies
  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    To screw up or improve. [face_thinking]

    Depends on your point of view, I guess. :p
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Sure, Anakin doesn't really deserve to go into Jedi heaven, but he is still a "different" changed man. And the scene is very important because it visually proves that Vader didn't just save his son, no, he also rejected the Dark Side. That's why we see Shaw in Jedi robe all healed and with a proud expression on his face.

    If Anakin saw himself as Hayden then even more is off about this. It would mean he yearns for past days, days in which he was a child murderer.

    There's nothing to accept with Hayden-Anakin. He is unacceptable. If he had jumped of a cliff a lot of lives would've been saved.
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    For me, emphasizing the "difference" is disingenuous though. I think the scene works much more powerfully if you are smacked in the face with Anakin's crimes. Shaw, for me, is simply too easily dissociated from Darth Vader's crimes because we never actually see Shaw do anything horrific.

    I think a lot of people prefer him for this exact reason -- for them, it's about Shaw being a different man than Anakin and Vader. To separate him from his crimes.

    For me, that isn't as important as being confronted with what exactly is being forgiven. Anakin, no matter what form he takes, can't run from his sins and wrongdoings. They are with him even in death. To me, the scene functions much more powerfully precisely because it is Anakin accepting that he has done evil, that he is flawed, and repenting of that.

    The Hayden Anakin is also wearing a Jedi robe and is looking at his son with joy (personally, I don't really see pride in either Anakin's face -- he has no reason to be proud given that he contributed nothing to Luke being a good person).

    It's not about "yearning for past days" so much as it is being at peace with yourself and understanding that you've done wrong, accepting responsibility, and atoning for it.

    Shaw is a child murderer as well and, for me, I'd rather they use Hayden's face so we know exactly what I (and Luke) are forgiving. Rather than Shaw's which I find tends to "sugarcoat" it more.

    We can't know if more lives would have been saved if Anakin had killed himself. Palpatine might have gone on to rule for much longer and killed many more people if Anakin hadn't killed him. That doesn't justify Anakin's atrocities, but it does mean that we should not be so quite to judge and dismiss the value even in individuals who have submerged themselves in evil.
    Seagoat likes this.
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Fair enough. We should agree to disagree then. For me the forwards evolution is very important, the character growth which is shown visually through Shaw (and I am aware Vader deserved death as I often make clear in different threads).

    I am also not sure if Anakin was put there to emphasize his flaws. That is giving Lucas far too much credit imo. In a lot of interview quotes Lucas made clear he thought of Anakin as a basically good man and not the rotten bastard we saw on screen.
    Carbon1985 likes this.
  20. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I didn't know whiners were bad people.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    "I killed them all. The men, the women, the children." (or something similar)
    Aegon Starcaster likes this.
  22. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    Regarding the Anakin's ghost thing and his crimes as Vader...

    I like the fact that Hayden plays both Anakin and Vader at some point in the saga. It's a way of showing us that, to the Force, the body means nothing. It's the spirit. On a physical level, or even a genetic level, Anakin and Vader are the same person. But to the Force, a more metaphysical thing, they're two very different people. That's why Anakin's ghost takes the form of his young self. The Force, in a sense, couldn't see him for 23 years. It saw only Vader. But now that Anakin has been redeemed, it can see him once again. It's beautifully poetic in a way.

    Of course, if you prefer Shaw, then I hold nothing against you. This is all opinion-based and somewhat open to our own interpretations ^_^
    Last edited by Seagoat, Jul 26, 2013
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    But as I said, ROTS Anakin already was a mass murderer. If he has truly changed then he shouldn't appear as one anymore in ROTJ.

    I find his character in a way disgustingly fascinating like that of Candy in Django Unchained. He is a monster through and through, not a "good man turned evil", and therefore it makes no sense for me that this would be how Anakins redeemed ghost would look like.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 27, 2013
  24. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    I must say, it's somewhat strange to see young Anakin standing there with Old Obi Wan.
    The inconsistency in that scene made my jaw drop first time I saw it.

    *tries not to make a big deal out of unnecessary changes to beloved saga* >.< Bring my shuttle!
  25. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    If I knew that Lucas would changed actors who play Anakin in the force ghost scene, I kind of wish Luke just saw Yoda & Kenobi at the end of ROTJ. It would have been a good morality message that even though Anakin saved his son and killed the Emperor, he could not escape his past to become a force ghost. I guess I just hate that certain changes divide the base more then this fan base needs.
    vinsanity likes this.