Lit Origins of the Empire

Discussion in 'Literature' started by General Immodet, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    Well, I do not really want to talk about the origins of the Galactic Empire, but about how Palpatine incorporated symbols and designs which were originally used by other factions.

    For example, the symbol of the Galactic Empire is clearly based on the symbol of the Sith Empire (TOR).
    The uniforms and tanks used by the Clones and Stormtroopers ressemble those used by the Republic during the TOR time period. The armor can be traced back to the Mandies as well.

    The Sith Emperor created the rank 'Moff' and 'Grand Moff". Palpatine later used them as well.

    The Imp Star Destroyers not only ressemble the Venators, but also the Sith Warships.
    Palpatine's Crimson Guards originally were Senate Guards or Sun Guards.

    Discuss!
  2. Lugija Force Ghost

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    Somewhere, just now, Jello's spider sense is tingling.

    Many of these old-new-designs came from TOR. Many have complained that the game-makers took the Galactic Empire and just inserted Sith everywhere. I think I facepalmed when I realized that the Republic Troopers look like Clone Troopers and the Sith Empire troopers look like Stormtroopers.

    But in-universe I don't really have an idea of why Palpatine wanted to incorporate Sith Empire designs other than for the lulz. All the symbols come from the original Bendu symbol used by the monks of Bendu long before the Republic.
  3. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
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    Per the Atlas Moff is actually an older title initially reserved for Warlords that joined the Republic but kept nominal rule of their part of space.

    There are older design around that already have a Star Destroyer look, so the Lost Sith (no not the tribe), nor the TOR Lost Sith or the Lost Jedi that founded the Sith Empire came up with it.

    For a people with force powers they really are s... at hyperspace navigation o_O

    Episode 1 era Senate Guard are apparently model after Soldiers from old Core World wars, so the look might actually be way older.
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Apr 23, 2013
  4. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    James Bond also wears a necktie resembling the uniform of the fifteenth-century's Croatian Military Frontier.

    Human beings are not as creative as they tell themselves. :p
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  5. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    I am still holding out for some army in the GFFA that goes for old Ottoman Empire style uniforms. :p
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  6. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    There are older design around that already have a Star Destroyer look, so the Lost Sith (no not the tribe), nor the TOR Lost Sith or the Lost Jedi that founded the Sith Empire came up with it.[/quote]
    Yeah. The Ravager springs to mind.
    GrandAdmiralJello likes this.
  7. Minez01 Force Ghost

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    Nov 12, 2005
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    With regard to armour and spaceships, maybe in the SW universe stuff like that generally follows all the same convention? For example, on earth, most of our aeroplanes have two wings and a fuselage and generally take a similar shape. It could be that the designs he chose were simply extensions of older models that served their purpose well, as we would do with cars or planes etc.

    With regard to the stuff from TOR, I also gawked at how they just took the empire and replaced all it's beings with Sith. Worst part about the whole thing IMO.
  8. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    TOR is ****.


    That's my educated opinion.

    And ire rising. I hate TOR.

    Yep, moff is an old republican title, no matter what the creators of TOR were (or likely weren't) thinking.


    Yep -- modeled after the centurions of Notron -- that is, ancient Coruscant. Nothing Sith about 'em.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Apr 23, 2013
  9. Parnesius Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 8, 2012
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    As far as naval aesthetics are concerned, the happiest explanations would seem to be either (a) that there is some sort of major secret historical connection between Kuat and the Sith Empire or (b) that large numbers of massive dagger-shaped ships are ideally suited to the needs of the Old Sith Empire, the Clone Wars-era Republic and the Galactic Empire yet are not the logical design for every major naval power (and indeed the Republic for large parts of its history). A 'sleek, blade-like form simplifies shield distribution' but that alone seems insufficient.

    Or...the Sith, regardless of philosophical differences and millenia of development, just really like triangles. They use them everywhere and just can't help themselves. Like Pythagoras in Red Dwarf.

    Actually, now I'm really attatched to the image of beleagured shipwrights telling Doriana or Moore or whoever to shut up about the stupid triangles.
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  10. RC-1991 Force Ghost

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    Dec 2, 2009
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    The ire rises!

    [IMG]
  11. LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master

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    Well, as someone already pointed out, the eight-rayed roundel is of Dai Bendu origins (see http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_Dai_Bendu). Its inclusion in SWTOR as the emblem of the Sith Empire is something of an aberration. From an out-of-universe perspective, I can understand why the developers did that: to make sure that casual players would equate the Sith Empire with the Galactic Empire in terms of evil. But in-universe it just doesn't make sense that the Sith endorsed a Dai Bendu symbol.
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  12. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    I disagree. I mean, sure, I'd rather they'd have not used the symbol... but given their Jedi origins, the Sith Empire using a corrupted Dai Bendu symbol works just as well for them from an IU perspective as it does the Galactic Empire. (Well, not JUST as well, since obviously the real Empire is corrupting a symbol that had most recently been associated with the Republic... but you get the idea :p)

    And I'm still convinced that Vitiate had a hazy vision of a Sith Empire ruling the galaxy, thought it was his destiny, and so tried to create it. Unfortunately, it was Palpatine's destiny.

    Thus the TOR Empire is a knock off in universe, as well as out. :D
    Last edited by Ulicus, Apr 24, 2013
  13. LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master

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    Well, then you'd have to wonder why the Republic would adopt that symbol in its late years since it was last used by a Sith Empire. Granted, the Bendu sigil had a grand ancient history. It was featured heavily on the Jedi Knights' banners during the Unification Wars that gave birth to the Republic. But that was more than 25, 000 years earlier! Its use by the Sith, however, was much more "recent history" by the time of the Clone Wars. In real-life, that would never happen. Just think of the swastika. It's a very ancient, positive symbol, but Western people wouldn't dare to use it because of what the Nazi made with it. Its initial positive, beneficent charge has been forgotten because of the atrocities of war.

    If Palpatine came with the idea of using the Bendu sigil during the Clone Wars, probably someone would have told him: "Wait a minute... wasn't that crest used by the Sith during that bloody gawdawful Cold War?" Of course, he would try to explain the symbol's true origins, but people wouldn't even want to hear/believe it. Which, again, is exactly what happens in real-life when you've got to explain why your ancient Roman shield bears swastikas.
    Last edited by LelalMekha, Apr 24, 2013
  14. Lugija Force Ghost

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    And Bail Organa would have asked "What Sith?"
  15. LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master

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    Sorry Lugija, I got the impression that it should ring a bell in my head, but it just doesn't. Do you mean that knowledge of the Sith was very poor at the time of the Clone Wars, even among the elite?

    The Sith Emperor didn't create those ranks either. He just reused them. The name of Moff emerged in the small, Pre-Republic satrapies that formed the Republic. (Per The Essential Atlas)
    Last edited by LelalMekha, Apr 24, 2013
  16. Lugija Force Ghost

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    Some novel (Labyrinth of Evil perhaps) said that Bail thought the Sith were a myth until the Clone Wars. So the common people of the galaxy can forget major stuff.
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  17. LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master

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    Well, if it does appear in a novel, we're kinda forced to admit it. However, that too is quite absurd and a sad oversight on the author's part. There have been at least 5 major conflicts (not just localized wars, but more like our "world wars") involving the Sith throughout the history of the Republic, and yet a well-educated patrician, a university benefactor like Bail Organa doesn't know that? Sheesh. He's a Prince of Alderaan and a Senator, not the common rabble. Don't they have history lessons in the GFFA?
    Last edited by LelalMekha, Apr 24, 2013
  18. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Nah, not especially. The Sith and Galactic Empires use a corrupted six spoke variant. The Republic use the true, unperverted symbol.

    Honestly, I wonder more about why the Felpire continues to use something that was -- as I understood it -- always intended as mockery of ancient Jedi iconography.
  19. LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master

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    Ignorance. If we're going to accept that Alderaanian nobles knew nothing of the Republic's eternal archfoes, then it's not too hard to believe Fel didn't event think about the origins of the Imperial crest.
  20. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    Jun 12, 2009
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    The Sith usage of "Moff" is most likely due to the Empire being dominated from 6,900 BBY to 5,000 BBY by Dark Jedi coming from the Republic, with their descendants continuing the usage whether they knew its origin or not. The Essential Atlas states the word came from pre-Republic times, refering to ancient warlords, long before the Sith Empire as founded by Dark Jedi came to be.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Apr 24, 2013
  21. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Palpatine's purposes may have been to corrupt the Jedi symbol, but as far as the secular government was concerned, it was just an alteration of the Republic's symbol. Consequently, the Second Empire used it because the first Empire used it. It's no different from their usage of formerly Jedi-killing stormtroopers.
  22. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    It's mainly problematic for me because the Felpire ends up being ruled by Jedi.
  23. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Well, Jedi of sorts. I suspect the Skywalker Jedi regard the Fel Jedi as schismatics. The Jedi are Catholic and the Imperial Knights are Orthodox -- caesaropapism indeed!
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Apr 24, 2013
  24. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
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    I think the IK are more like the gnostic societies to the JO Christianity = that they take some part of the teaching that they like or have use for and ignore or misinterpret the rest.

    I hope there is no Gnostics here who take offense of my crude comparison

  25. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    I figured they came about after the Council refused Fel II a divorce.