ST Oscar Isaac (Poe Dameron) in the ST

I think you answered your own question--that given the scarcity of the resistance resources, expending the bombers on this mission was not sound strategy. If they had more pilots, ships, they could take this risk. Given their circumstances, they gambled away too much of what they had for too small a victory.

 

poe just came off as hotheaded and too immature to be the leader of resistance as the movie progressed. his actions at the start sacrificing all that bombers appeared as a blunder in the final stage when resistance barely had any weapons.
he should have tried charming kylo instead

 

1 : Poe's decision to attack is not, in itself, the real problem. It was a "field decision", he was in the midst of the battle, he had a decision to make, and only a few seconds to do it. He saw an opening, he took it.
The real problem starts after the battle, when he refuses to acknowledge his flaws (and stop caring for his comrades lives), and starts giving FUs to everyone.

2 : Poe's first fault was disobeying a direct order from his commander in chief. Chain of command is one of the most essential fundation of any armed forced. I know a lot of people have a problem with that, but it's true. Having a strong Chain of Command is the only way to ensure your army react swiftly and with coordination. Without it, the different components of your army stop working together, and starts undermining each other (see point #4).

3 : the loss of the Bombers is not a huge problem by itself, just a more "tangible way" for us, the audience, to "measure" Poe's failure. Still, the squadron should have been saved for a more decisive Battle : D'qar was already lost.
The Resistance cannot play a "war of ressources" / "war of attrition" : if losing Starkiller Base was only a minor roadbump for the FO, then what will destroying a Dreadnought accomplish exactly ?
Unlike the FO, the Resistance has extremely limted ressources : it is vital that each one is used optimally.

4 : now, the biggest issue here was putting the Raddus, and thus the whole Resistance, at risk : the ship was ready to jump away, but was forced to delay its escape and wait for its fighters to come back.
During that time, the Raddus was unnecessary exposed to enemy fire, and could have easily been destroyed due to Poe's attack.
If that ship goes down, then that's it ! Game Over ! End credits ! The war is lost ! The Resistance ends right here, right there !
It was simply not the time for such a risky gambit : D'qar wasn't worth it, the Dreadnought wasn't worth it.

TL;DR : Poe was wrong. Worse, he kept getting wronger and wronger as the movie progressed.
Even worse, while he did eventually learn his lesson, he never once made amends for all the lives he wasted, nor did he even felt guilty for them.
The fact that he totally escaped personal consequences, despite crimes worthy of a death penalty, "just because he has a nice smile", only makes the matter even more infuriating.

TLJ just turned Poe into a major assh**e : this character is dead to me now.

 

I actually think that Poe became more interesting now that he is obviously flawed character. In TFA he was bit boring really- all his character was that he was a very good pilot with a witty sense of humor. Agreed about other points though. Poe was too hotheaded on D'Qar.

 

the resistance didn't know they had a way to track them through hyperspace, so from their perspective at that time Poe was being an idiot, disobeying direct orders and getting a whole bunch of people killed
he also saved everyones lives, if he didn't order the attack on the siege dreadnought it's long range guns would have an easy time picking off the resistance fleet as they were limping to Crait

 

I too like my heroes better when they have flaws ... as long as they are still heroes at the end of day. But when their flaw beome THE defining characteristic of the character, then i stop rooting for them.

More importantly when a hero commit a fault, i expect him to assume the consequences, take the blame, and pay the price for them.
The fact Poe completely evaded personal consequences, and got a freepass for getting everybody killed (because Holdo "knda like him"), is just profondly disgusting.

Even then, the movie still could have reconciled me with the character, had it shown me Poe's willingness to make amends, or at the very least showed clear signs of guilt.
Instead it showed him more peoccupied about wanting to bone Rey...

 

Poe was wrong. He was wrong throughout the film and got everyone killed, but because of plot armor he conveniently avoids the same fate he consigns everyone else to, gets a mere slap on the wrist for a few brief minutes, and immediately turns around to become the leader of the Resistance/Rebellion because he thought walking after some space foxes might save his butt.

Poe is the worst. Poe should die.

 

lol...I forget, did Poe ever even meet Rey up until the end of 'tLJ?

 

Nope (unless you count the now non-canon novelisation of TFA).

But that scene clearly had only one purpose : opening the door to a possible Poe-Rey relationship in the future.
Problem : this is the first time Poe had a moment to breeze : this should have been the moment where the consequences of his actions, the weight of all the lives lost, should have come back and hit him.
Showing him with such a carefree attitude instead just creates a major disconnect :
this guy just got everybody killed, and that's where his head is ?

That was the last straw for me : i don't care about that jerk anymore.

 

Poe was wrong because his superior said to pull back. He should listen to orders and not just go off and risk lives.

 

While that is technically true (although not 100% certain), you're just "reasoning in hindsight". Poe just "got lucky" on this one.

Poe and the Resistance had no way to know about the Hyperspace tracking. They had no way to know they would be caught "with their pants down" just five minutes later.
So, this factor should not affect the decision-making process.

At the time, the Dreadnought's destruction simply isn't the priority : with or without it, the Resistance simply doesn't have the ressources to win the war.
Therefore, the priority is to avoid unnecessary battles and expand their alliance, gather the remnants of the Republic, and rally as many worlds as possible to their banner.
Once its done, then you can consider bringing the fight back to the FO.

Sure, that plan is not devoid of risks either, but that WAS the best and wisest choice.
It doesn't matter if, in hindsight, it would have (possibly) failed :
_ sometimes you make good decisions, but it still backfires (ex: Finn in TLJ).
_ sometimes you make mistakes, but still get a very fortunate outcome (ex: Rey in TLJ).

 

Poe got lost in his own ego. That's his lesson - to be more of a team player.

 

Let's say you are right: a bad script is not equal to a script whose gaol is to make the character looks like a jerk. And RJ's purpose was not to make the character named Poe to look like a jerk... quite the contrary. He wanted to make Poe a leader - and a trusted one - in the end.

Therefore, blame RJ.

 

The way that Poe Dameron acted, and the subsequent consequences of his actions to his career prospects, are completely and utterly unbelievable in the context of this documentary film series exploring themes of the importance of chain of command

 

I came to dislike Poe from TLJ myself and it was really down to lack of remorse for getting most of the Resistance killed. In Poe I see an extremist, with the potential to become more of an extremist.

I'm not sure he quite learned his lessons either. Did he learn to respect Leia and Holdo? Not really. He was already giving orders at the end again and turning to Leia was an afterthought. He came to realize Holdo had been right but I am not sure that overcame the phenomenal disrespect he showed her by not even figuring out the entirety of her plan before kicking things around the bridge and shouting at her. Did he learn the value of human life? Not really. He learned to manage his human resources better. There is no remorse for all those deaths conveyed on screen. I needed some line like, "Oh my god, they're all dead because of what I did." That's learning the burden of command--that people die because of the decisions you make. And no hero high will bring those people back. A nonchalant "Finn! Rose! You're not dead!" just further made it feel there's no remorse. He's really happy to see BB-8, but there's no moment of reconciling how this failed Finn/Rose mission led to so many Resistance deaths and no genuine relief that at least Finn and Rose didn't perish in this disaster of a mission.

I felt like the movie was tooting Poe's hero horn and I was expected to get on board, but I just couldn't get on board. The devastation from Poe's decisions bothered me more than Poe seemed to be bothered by it.

The movie didn't convey really to me why Leia believes Poe is leadership material either. I think that it may be like what she saw in Han in ESB. She said Han was a natural leader and I think it's this sort of leading by charisma sort of thing. Poe does have some admirable leadership attributes in that he gives orders with confidence, he gains the loyalty of others easily, he boosts morale, he has this aura of strength about him that makes others feel secure in following him, etc. But he is really reckless and can't think very many steps ahead. He doesn't have any wisdom, IOW, and he doesn't seem to understand the value of human life. He's a better middle manager than someone who should be running the whole shebang AFAIC. I don't see any reason why he should be higher in the ranks than a middle manager. He is no Leia, Mon Mothma, or Bail Organa, that's for sure.

I am not upset that Poe was not punished or something. Execution seems a horrible extreme response for his screw-ups. The Resistance is supposed to be more compassionate and forgiving than that. I just wanted to see Poe actually acknowledge the devastation he single-handedly dealt upon the Resistance. I don't think that Poe wallowing in remorse would be productive, but just acknowledging these mistakes cost hundreds of lives would have been nice. An apology would have been nice.

The only redeeming thing for me is I know Poe loves Leia, and it's a deep love. Leia was the only person he did seem to love in the whole movie (aside from BB-8). Basically I know there is this "good guy" in there. But gawd. Just don't put him in charge. (Unfortunately though, thanks to Poe, there are now very few of them left. And with CF gone, Poe will just default to being in charge.)

 

Going after the Dreadnought wasn't wrong, the objective there was probably to try and destroy the ship before it could damage the base, it just so happens that they were lucky enough to not need such a plan. Everything goes wrong once the base is evacuated and Poe decides to ignore the greater objective, which is to run away.

That is really the biggest problem and a good way of explaining it.

Would you say that he was, maybe, better set-up for Finn's arc than Finn was?

 

I'm intrigued. How so?

 

When the CNC pulled herself back into the Ship I knew this documentary was faking it.

 

Poe’s given complexity in TLJ. This is a child of the Rebellion. His relationship with Leia is closer to that of a foster mother than your typical Admiral and Commander relationship.

He’s perhaps the best non-Force using pilot in Star Wars and that makes him arrogant. He’s charming though so his crews clearly like him and would go to war for him and participate in a mutiny for him. He has the makings of a leader but still some big flaws holding him back. His actions on the surface aren’t all that different than what the Rogue One crew attempted to do when they took off despite pleas to return their ship and became heroes for following their instincts and pulling off the impossible and its easy to see how growing up around that would almost serve as propaganda for wanting to do the same and for trusting your instincts above all else. He basically talked himself into this as a similar moment and he couldn’t let it go. Earlier in war when he’d had more resources perhaps such an offensive gambit would have been worth the losses (A Dreadnought is a huge ship with a ton of enemies on it and enough fire power to destroy fleets). Here though defence was the smart move and he needed to learn the value in retreat and protecting his resources and crew better.

You can tell Leia and Holdo both see his potential and admire his passion for winning but they both know that despite poesssing some leadership qualities that others below him look up to... he still had a lot to learn about leading.

By the end of the film he’s shown not once but twice that he’s learned his lesson and become a stronger leader and Leia is happy to see it and enjoys watching it. She even says at the end, “What are you looking at me for. Follow him,” as he and Finn are following the Foxes toward some kind of exit. And that’s because she’s proud to see his growth. Again, their relationship is not your typical Admiral and Commander relationship. They need his skills. They know the younger crews will follow him and with numbers depleted it truly is desperate times and desperate measures with less judgment or inquiries than what might happen during more stable times.

 

In the first movie he was just a hot shot pilot. He was not given a character outside of that.

 

Well, Finn's arc, by the end, seems to be that he learned the lesson that the point of their fight was "protecting those we love, not destroying those we hate". This is pretty much what Poe's desire to destroy the Dreadnought feels like : he's focused more on hurting the First Order than on saving the rest of the Resistance. And that happens in the very first scene of the movie!

And what a horrible character they gave him in the sequel.

 

So the idea is that Poe's arc actually is less relevant in a way than Finn's arc, in that Poe's arc is there to show us a piece of the puzzle of what Finn is learning? Because yeah I don't think Poe learns to "save what we love." He learns to be less reckless with the lives of those under him, but I don't feel any *love* in this. It's more about right/wrong to him. As in he now knows that throwing everyone away uselessly is too high a cost. He is thinking at least about the cost. But still to care about the lives of those who serve him as causes in themselves, I just don't know. At the end he takes up the idea about letting someone (Luke) give himself up so the rest of them can survive. So he's on board now with Holdo's point of the importance of the Resistance surviving (the spark that will light the fire that will burn the FO down). But to Poe I think it's still about burning down the FO, not "saving what we love." He's just realized that throwing everyone away won't actually burn the FO down--that's how the FO will burn them down.

 

Oh, no, no! I just think that Finn's arc, given where it ended, started weirdly and that Poe's actions in that beginning felt like a better beginning for that particular arc. As in, if Finn's arc had ended at the same lesson but started with Poe's actions, it would have made more sense.