ST Oscar Isaac (Poe Dameron) in the ST

I couldn't disagree more with your first statement (and @Jedi Knight Fett 's message).
Poe's "hubris" and "over-eagerness to fight" were present from the very first moments of TFA.
Back then, we already saw him giving in to that flaw : where his mission (and Lor San Tekka) demanded he ran away with BB-8, he simply couldn't resist staying behind and taking a shot at Kylo Ren.
But back then, this trait was also more measured and nuanced, and was compounded by several other traits, including caring about his comrades and valuing their lives.
(ex: on SKB, he is quick to disengage his wingmen, not exposing them any longer than necessary, while he takes care of the hardest part all by himself)
TFA offered us a much more nuanced and layered character, with a complex personnality.

All RJ did with Poe was take his "hubris", turn it "up to eleven", and remove all his other traits : that's the very definition of a caricature.
For 80% of TLJ*, Poe is reduced to a mere one-dimensional character, defined only by his "hubris", while all his other traits mysteriously vanish.
*he only regains part of his former self when Leia knocked some sense into him., litterally...


Also Poe may have learned his lesson, but he never earned it. He never payed the price for it ! He never once had to face the consequences of his mistakes.
Hundreds of resistance members had to pay the price for him.
Holdo had to pay the price for him.
Poe gets to enjoy all the benefits of making mistakes without having to suffer any of the drawbacks : that is just deeply unsatisfying.

How can he become a great and mature leader if he never assume his reponsabilties, and can't face the consequences of his actions ?

 

At least he was demoted. Leia could have done squat and just said don’t do that.

 

And was de facto promoted again at the end of the movie...

Not to mention, his demotion was only for his first blunder : the least important one..

 

Well ya, least important in relation to treason and disregarding a commanding officer. Coming up with a plan and not informing the commanding officer. Anything else I missed?

 

Considering the circumstances (mutiny while facing the enemy), and the number of casualties, i'd say, IRL, you'd already have enough for one death sentence and a half. Do you really need more ?

Then, while technically not a crime (i think), you could add putting Finn & Rose lives at risks :
Finn's high-risk mission would have had much higher chances of success had Poe went through Holdo : that way, all the Resistance ressources could have been used, a better plan could have been elaborated, and better support given to the mission.
(ex : in TFA, we saw the Resistance has a network of spies and informants : i'm sure they have better agents to send on an infiltration mission than a mere mechanic).
But Poe denied Finn that support out of pure pettyness : he risked his friend's life just because he couldn't stomach having been roasted by his superior 5 minutes earlier.

Even if it's not a crime in itself, that's quite a d#ck move !

 

They could have used their fuel!!

 

I actually agree Poe's hubris was present in TFA. Though I think he stayed behind to protect BB-8. He wanted BB-8 to run. And a droid can go more easily unnoticed. He meanwhile would help provide cover for BB-8's mission by joining the fight. But also Poe wasn't just trigger happy here IMO. My impression was he was concerned about LST and the others and he wanted to protect them.

I actually didn't start thinking Poe was arrogant in TFA until close to the end of the movie, and it was just these subtle things (I was actually surprised Poe's hubris became a thing in TLJ because I didn't know if RJ would pick up on it as something to use in the TLJ story). For most of TFA Poe is a gung-ho and dedicated Resistance pilot. But he's definitely not a Wedge sort (Wedge is humble and efficient--his ego isn't involved in his job despite being one of the Rebellion's best pilots). Poe is like the star player on the Resistance air squad. He's the best pilot. And he knows it. He's also kind of a show off. (And that was all in TFA.)

I agree. He also was noticeably unhappy when that alien guy died. It seemed to me that Poe wanted ALL of them to survive and was big on minimizing losses. This was why I wondered if his great challenge in TLJ would be he makes a mistake and a bunch of his pilots get killed and for a while he can't deal with it because up until now he's never suffered such severe losses. It was largely a "cold war" until now, and even with SKB the Resistance was largely successful and suffered minimal losses. So I was a bit surprised when campy Poe starts out TLJ and doesn't appear to care about his people. Maybe it's that he is angry at himself about getting the whole bomber squad killed and doesn't know how to express it/deal with it? I could maybe see that in his statement to Leia about how there were heroes on the dreadnought mission. But that's quite the displacing of emotion.

I actually thought Poe lost his layers after he "died" on Jakku. His character seemed like a cardboard cutout to me after that (aside from the great Finn hug).

Maybe... Poe does at least have a character arc in TLJ, which made him NOT feel like a cardboard cutout of a character to me in TLJ. And I think RJ decided to challenge Poe with his own hubris. But I think also that @Ender_and_Bean 's post is saying what the Poe story was *supposed* to be. It's just I guess I didn't buy it. And also it seems to be regressing the character ethically. He shouldn't need to learn these particular lessons. He should already know them, IMO. I think perhaps how I might view it is that TLJ Poe is falling a bit to the dark side. It's not that his character is fundamentally different but that he is undergoing a fall.

I agree there isn't any focus on the consequences. I don't need Poe to pay a price, I just needed something in there to show me that the character came to understand the consequences, just some acknowledgment of how his reckless actions (especially going behind Holdo's back with a plan that ended up compromising the Resistance) resulted in loss of life, and how if you can't care about the lives of those under you you're no better than the FO. What is he fighting for if he doesn't care about people's lives? The FO doesn't care about people's lives either so he might as well be on their side.

If I was Leia, I would have just said, "Let's face it. You went behind Holdo's back. You were quick to jump to conclusions without even knowing what her full plan was. And because of this our entire escape plan was leaked to the FO and now hundreds of us are dead. You didn't just make a bad call, you nearly got us all killed."

(Although I am not sure Leia even knows this happened. Poe is the only one really who knows about the leak (and Finn and Rose). So really he needs to enlighten himself on the matter. And he appears to be terrible at understanding things like consequences, which is EXACTLY why he should not be in any higher leadership positions. Poe seemingly can only learn from experience--he has to screw up over and over to learn. He doesn't have the insight to imagine things play out without actually acting them out and getting people killed. The cost of him coming to understand something is people's lives.)

 

Again guys: bad plot, total non sense - because it makes no sense at all
that one is demoted because he doesn't obey orders but no one cares about a munity (it's far beyond logic) -
it's not equal to the storyteller's purpose, that is made crystal clear by other choices in the very same movie
("Why are looking at me? Follow him") and what he and the actor said in interviews to explain the character arc.

EDIT: Not to mention that the munity vs Holdo and the putch/regicide vs Snoke
are meant to mirror one another as many subplots in the same movie do.
That in the very same movie all the men are to be saved/reproached/educated
by a womam, etc...

Were those the best choices to reach that goal, to tell that story, or character arc Jhonson wanted to tell?
No. But his ideas are still clear.

 

The two situations are not the same and even if they were it's Leia's call and with 400 people left some standard operating procedure goes out the window.

In the first example, Poe, pushes on with an attack that kills much of his crew. He is demoted because Leia has enough forces that she's still playing by the book a little. As the situation becomes more clear for how the FO can track them and how screwed they are the rule book goes out the window.

With the full support of his crew, he essentially issues a vote of non-confidence to a brand new admiral on behalf of the crew. They see the Admiral as treasonous, or mentally unfit to command, and may even be questioning whether she's in with the enemy. So, for the survival of the Resistance itself he and other crewmembers list their reasons for relieving her of duty. This action doesn't result in the direct loss of life. Leia again punishes him physically. This time by shooting him unconscious. Holdo and Leia both seem to agree it's what they would have done had they been in their crews shoes so Leia decides to bring out the carrot instead of the whip and just talk to him. With so few people left she can't afford to lose her star pilot. Particularly if she's already sensing that her crew feels the same way and sides with him. She knows that based on his ability to lead the remaining crew that he's a better guy to have on her side than dead. He's also like a son to her once his parents died so work in a little nepotism if you must. Throw in their dwindling numbers and it's obviously chalked up to a Rogue One-like make or break moment that he and the crew felt they needed to do to survive which Leia obviously accepts.

 

I don't think Leia or Holdo would ever consider killing Poe. Good grief. The Resistance is NOT the FO. They don't kill their own people for internal disagreements. They're supposed to be the side that isn't a bunch of fanatical extremists.

But I also don't think Leia and Holdo agree it's what they would have done if they were the crew. This is the case of Poe being utterly disrespectful. He doesn't respect Leia enough to follow her orders, he doesn't respect her enough to know that she wouldn't have a total flop of a leader in the Vice Admiral position. He makes assumptions about Holdo and doesn't bother to check them. In his arrogance he presumes that he is entitled to know everything about her plan, and as soon as he notices that she's fueling the transports he decides that her plan is stupid. This is all about his blatant disrespect for those who actually are way better strategists than he is and using his aggression to overpower the situation to push his own dumb agenda. Seriously, it's a total disaster. Holdo should have made sure he sat in the brig so he couldn't continue to undermine things. Her failure is that she was not firm *enough* with Poe. He was clearly a problem from the beginning and predictably that problem got worse and worse.

I agree that Leia loves Poe like a son. I don't believe that she thinks she needs to rely on him for the loyalty of the others. Everyone is loyal to Leia. The problem occurred when Leia was in a coma and this person they were less familiar with took over. Holdo IMO should have done more to get these people on her side. Ironically her strengths in leadership and Poe's complement one another. Poe could have helped Holdo keep up morale. Both of them made mistakes--Holdo in underestimating the importance of morale and Poe in being a jerk who automatically decided he was better qualified for Holdo's role than she was.

 

Did anybody pick up, that Poe had cabin fever.

Kylo destroyed his x-wing, so he literally had nothing to do but bow to Holdo's every whim, for the rest of the chase.

He must have been getting restless.

In fact, if one were to consider Poe undergoing a hero's journey in TLJ.

Then being "grounded" on the Raddus, was his "unknown world."

Ordinary world: Poe is in his element, in his x-wing, making fun of Hux

Call to adventure: Poe takes action to stop the dreadnaught canons so the fleet can get away

Refusal: Poe refuses Leia's order take the bomber squadron and retreat

Mentor: Leia slaps Poe and gives him advice

Crossing the threshold: x-wing, fellow pilots like Tallie destroyed, Leia in coma

Test/allies/enemies: meets his new adversary Holdo who is put in charge. Secretly conspires with Rose, Threepio, Finn and Connix to go over Holdo's head

Approach: update from Finn and Rose. Needs to stall for time. Starts mutiny.

Ordeal: Holdo escapes and Poe locks himself on the bridge. Lowest point, Leia stuns him. Finn and Rose get caught. Resistance ships get blown up.

Reward: Awakens to find out Holdo's plan from Leia. Holdo's sacrifice

 

Good point about cabin fever. Poe seems like someone who needs to be in control and actively doing something, like all the time. He is stressed to the breaking point.

Regarding the hero's journey, it seems more like a villain's journey. He thinks he's the hero but he's actually making everything worse for the most part.

I'm thinking of it as a brush with the dark side, a fall, but he starts coming back out of it.

 

Hero's return to the ordinary world:

Road back: he and the other survivors meet on Crait and hold out. Reunited with Finn, Rose and BB-8

Atonement: has the epiphany that the skimmer attack won't work. Orders everyone to fall back (something Poe wouldn't have done earlier in the film)

Return: realizes Luke Skywalker is stalling. Figured out another way out the cave. Leia allows him to lead everyone out.

Denouement: everyone escapes on the Falcon. He officially meets Rey.

 

There's that scenes of Leia and Holdo saying "I like him" while is asleep
So I think @Ender_and_Bean is right: the intent was -most likely - to make the audience aware that they
would have done the same, in the same situation and perhaps at the same age
(even tho he's 32... but you know what I think about it).
However... I still hold onto my idea. Not always the plot choices/devices are the best ones.
Same for the munity: it's not that I think they should have kill him.
Or to say it better: in real world... that could be a chance, ot at least to chase him.
But that's not the point.
The problem to me is in the context of this specific movie:
the contradiction between demoting him for disobeying and do nothing about the mutiny it's... too evident.

 

By the time they land on Crait, only Leia, D'Arcy and Emmat outrank Poe.

By that time it was more about using every resource you have than handing out demotions

 

Sure. But even before, when he's asleep and they are evaqueting, is not that
Leia and Holdo are particularly angry ... the scene is that of the "I like him" (Holdo
is even holding his hand).
Same during the conversation between Poe and Leia - before the new attack -
Leia explains what the real plan was, what was going on and she's "ok" with him.
She explains what he didn't know. But she never says "you idiot..."

That said, it's not that your take is wrong.
I'd say it add other points.

 

My one friend told me he felt like Poe's arc in TLJ was a step backward, and I initially shot him down, but I think maybe he's right.

Poe did "grow" in TLJ, but it definitely did feel like his character took a step backwards. I mean, that IS what RJ was going for. His intent was to make every character face a tough and difficult situation where they fail. Poe made some bad decisions and really cost his side a lot.

Maybe in the context of the entire trilogy we'll appreciate his arc more in TLJ, but right now, it's clear he did fall back a bit in terms of being a "hero" in TLJ.

 

I agree that it’s important to assess their full arcs. TLJ is the second act and the function of a second act is quite literally to challenge the characters physically or emotionally or psychologically and expose weaknesses and setback that need to be overcome to become the best versions of themselves for a triumphant 3rd and final act. Poe will be a better leader in IX based on his setbacks and life lessons in VIII and by the end he’s shown that to be the case and Leia literally says, “What are you looking at me for? Follow him.”

 

I can't seem to get over things like how he grabs Leia by the arm when she is chastising him for the dreadnought mission, and the scene in which he sees Holdo is fueling the transports - how he decides her plan must be really stupid off the bat, doesn't even ask her, starts kicking things and being more openly aggressive, his tone in talking to her... It all just left this bad taste in my mouth. My reaction was wtf is your problem, like seriously what an *******. Then at the end he starts telling people what to do and asking Leia is practically an afterthought. Leia and Holdo meanwhile *like* this behavior. They like being disrespected. No one told him to stop being an *******. All of this in addition to how many died thanks to Poe. Others should be like Paige I suppose and just die for him.

 

Honestly none of the character arcs felt convincing imo. And Poe was no exception. It's like Rian didn't even bother to watch TFA or something.

It's fine to put your characters through the ringer and "give them flaws/have them make mistakes." Good idea in theory, learning experience and all that. BUT, they have to be BELIEVABLE and fit with what came before. And with Poe here, it didn't. In fact, I shall refer to TLJ character as "Joe Dameron" from now on, because he's NOT the same character as Poe. He's his weird douche doppleganger that Rian made up in his head.

Also it didn't help that Holdo's character was a mess as well.

Basically Rian can say whatever he wants about "arcs," but you don't have to buy it. And why should I trust that IX will do right by him, when TLJ didn't even line up well with TFA when it came to his character? That's the problem with letting the filmmakers just make it up as they go along.

 

I think IX Poe can work if they integrate TFA Poe and TLJ Poe effectively.

@cerealbox is right IMO with the cabin fever idea. This is Poe under considerable stress. Though IMO this is Poe's dark side.

I am a bit annoyed though that the movie wants us to think Poe is cool when that's how he treats Leia and Holdo, and I'm a bit annoyed that Leia and Holdo think it's okay for him to treat them that way. They like it, in fact.

 

The scene of Poe angry with Holdo in the bridge, so much angry he starts to kick
whatever is around him... If I think about it I cannot help but notice that he looks a lot like Kylo. A lot.
But that is just one small detail.

I believe the point is another.
That RJ's script is full of arcs and characters mirroring one another.
That this was how the script was done: like a fabric, where every thread holds the other.

My opinion - thinking about all the movie - but just
like @Thrawn082 said - and I 100% agree about it - is that in theory is a good idea,
but there's a difference between a good idea
and a good execution or a better if not the best choice to build a character's growth.

Too many times (think about Finn), the way it is done is not the at good one.
Or the theme is not the more fitting or helpful taking into account the individuality of that specific character. But like I said, there was this kind of obsessions about parallels...
every bits is connected to another, therefore sometimes the choices became given
to follow that path.
So much so sometimes, they had to reboot the characters more than let them grown.

 

I agree that Poe mirrors Kylo. Though it's kind of interesting because Poe uses his physical size and aggression to try to intimidate/control Holdo and he doesn't hold himself back from that (he keeps intensifying it). After Kylo shouts "Let go!" and Rey kind of flinches he softens his voice again. Neither of course will do what Rey/Holdo want. Kylo can't admit to admiring Rey and as AD said he has no respect to give. Poe doesn't respect Holdo's command, or Leia's (since he will not follow her orders and only considers her as an after thought at the end).

The core of the Poe/Kylo mirror is that Poe is Leia's adoptive son just about. She was probably drawn to him because he was an angry young man/boy just like her son was. Their relationship kind of reminds me of that between a mobster character and his mother. Those characters often love and revere their mothers, but in a way they won't fully respect them (the father is the figure with their full respect, though also the figure they fear). The mother is the figure endlessly devoted to them who will always love and support them no matter what they do. Although, that said, I think Poe does kind of fear Leia a little. He knows she has these powers and when her mind is set, it is non-negotiable. I can see it on his face before she shoots him.

The Finn/Poe mirror is interesting too. Finn won't follow Poe's orders at the end to fall back, just as Poe wouldn't follow Leia's. The difference is though that Poe is asking everyone else to die when he disobeys orders, whereas Finn intends to only sacrifice himself. Finn's act isn't out of arrogance or assuming he's all-important or only he is right. If anything, it's disturbingly the opposite, almost as though he (this person trained to be an expendable FO soldier) doesn't understand the value of his own life.

 

And he still didnt learn his lesson.
Holdo - we are the spark that will restore the repulic.
Poe - we are the spark that will burn down the first order.
We will win by saving what we love not destroying what we hate.
Finn will take this advice.

 

Right. Poe hasn't learned the Rose "save what you love > destroy what you hate" lesson. He is ANGRY. He wants to destroy the FO. He just learned that his reckless tactics won't help him do that. So his tactics should be much improved for IX.

And it's not that I think they should try to not destroy the FO. It's basically more the distinction between the dark side (destroy what we hate) and the light (save what we love). A destroy what we hate philosophy is behind evil entities like the FO. It's dangerous.

Though if there was a way to support a revolt inside the FO itself, I would really like that idea. Most of the people in the FO are victims, and they could potentially take back their lives and their personal power, if they could realize what the FO has done to them. It's like no one benefits from this but the tiny minority of people at the very top. The rest of the FO is there to be a slave labor force, expendable, etc.

Anyway, I am not sure if Poe is out of character or if it's just that when someone is under considerable stress, their worst attributes often emerge, attributes you don't see until they are stressed out enough. This is why I wonder if TFA is more balanced Poe (light > dark) and TLJ is more unbalanced Poe (struggling with the dark).

My prediction is that this was Poe's low point and it's uphill from here?

Poe may also behave much more as TFA Poe in IX once he's not so stressed out.

It's kind of interesting too in that a character that took a huge dip due to to considerable stress in the middle movie of a trilogy was Anakin. But Poe's brush with the darkness isn't nearly so severe as Anakin's in AOTC. It's something that can easily be overcome (in Star Wars context) as opposed to um slaughtering a bunch of innocent people out of hatred (a black mark on one's soul that will never go away).

My prediction is this was Poe's low point and it's uphill from here.