Saga OT Fans' Reactions to the PT

Well done, Yanks. That's very polite.

 

How about a quote from Gary Busey instead?

"Running backwards naked through a cornfield at midnight will show you where you've been."

Anyone wanna get back to the Lucas quotes?

 

How about you just skip over the posts?

How does it not make sense?

 

I do skip over the posts. Once I see large blocks of bolded text I scroll right past them. I don't feel the quotes really add anything to the discussion. But by all means, keep doing it if you feel that strongly about it.

As for the "how does it not make sense?"-- I don't know what you're asking me here. I'm saying certain contradictions, additions, or whatever in the films don't necessarily make sense. And no matter what George says on the matter, it doesn't change that perception.

 

Has anyone ever noticed that a good deal of these franchise creators and TV show runners tend to constantly contradict themselves? I have.

 

Going back a page...

If you look at old mythology, back before they really had any idea about genetics, how did certain families become special in some way? How were things passed down? Some families were "blessed". Others were "cursed". Sometimes by the Gods. Sometimes by Fate. Sometimes it was because of something they did. Or didn't do. These things that were passed down, they didn't always go back to the beginning of time, nor did they always get passed on forever. They often had a specific time when the blessing/curse began, and when it ended.

That's the way I always saw it, like the old stories. So I don't agree that there was necessarily a biological aspect to it. It doesn't have to come from the Skywalker blood, it could come from something outside them. Like the Force. It's sorta like a heroic lineage, before people knew about genetics.

Not everything needs to incorporate all the knowledge we've gained. It can, but it isn't an absolute necessity. You can stick with past ideas, even if they've been disproved, disregarded, or new knowledge has provided explanation.

It actually was done this way, at first. Qui-Gon just knew there was something special about this boy.

Qui-Gon does the blood test after, but it wasn't needed, imo.

 

And I'm asking, what about Midichlorians don't make sense?

 

Why are you asking that? I think the point that Yanksfan was making was that (more generally)...just because George Lucas has said something about an issue doesn't make it make any more sense.

But...I'm sure the discussion we have had elsewhere has already addressed why, as a 'scientific' explanation of heritability of the Force midiclorians make no sense. If they are independent entities from their host (which they would be if they are tiny creatures, and for the concept of symbiosis to have any meaning) then their heritability through the male (non-gestating) partner doesn't make sense biologically. As for the idea that anything in the OT necessitates such a conception....see the previous responses.

Oh and...Cryogenic - the word 'cell' is very commonly used to describe a holding room for prisoners. I think it is a quite remarkable streeeeetch to argue that it refers (or mirrors) the idea of the small influencing the big.

 

CT-867-5309... spot on! I always saw it in a similar way to Greek myths in the same vein as say, Jason and the Argonauts, or Clash of the Titans... only set in space... with Lightsabers

 

Yes, what only one kenobi said. I was speaking in general terms, not addressing one point specifically.

But for example, if you want to argue in favor of midichlorians, then go for it. I don't mind hearing your take on it. Different perceptions and opinions are what make this place interesting. But when you try to prop up your argument with GL quotes, that just bogs things down. They're basically irrelevant, muddle up the conversation, and cause me to then tune out your post. So you're not really doing yourself, or the discussion, any favors. That's all.

Seriously, we can get back on topic here. This wasn't supposed to be some five-part series on why I hate the use of GL quotes in JC discussions. For that I apologize.

 

The acting of the PT I find to be of a far higher caliber overall but then more was asked for and given so it's really just a question of form rather than blaming the acting of the PT. If they had been given more to work with maybe they would have also done as good work.

 

Some of the acting is horrific, because of the dialogue they have to speak. Harrison Ford has even commented on this in the past, and I reckon Mr. Ford knows a thing or two about acting in big movies. The OT just had good actors, acting without anything to lose.

I saw Hayden Christensen in a film called 'Shattered Glass' and I thought he was really, pretty good! So, a lot of the blame has to go to the director. And until recently, I don't think George realised until the reaction to the PT, his old friends were way beyond him, in that respect.

The difference being. Coppola, can take a story and craft a film. Spielberg, can take an actor and craft a character. Very different styles, but they both have the same effect. Mr. Lucas has these abilities in theory, but he can't quite blend the two consistently.

Has anyone seen Ewan McGregor in 'Trainspotting' or 'The Impossible'... or Natalie Portman in 'Leon' or 'Black Swan'? I think McGregor shows glimpses of his ability, but Portman, she seems lost throughout the PT.

'The Force' is all about emotions, and how one deals with having an ability and knowing how to use it. George Lucas, obviously understands this premise, but he can't fully portray it... he's neither a director, or storyteller. He's a creator!

A creator should never try to define their creation, but let independent minds explore it.

 

Lucas has long said that he was never into directing actors. He was more of an editor than a director like his friends. The reason he directed the PT was that he had fun doing TPM, his friends encouraged him to direct and that he didn't have to find directors who weren't DGA members that he could work with in the same manner that he had with Kershner and Marquand.

 

With the addition of 7,8,9 it will put the story in a whole new context, and the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker will be no more. I assume this trilogy will focus on Rey, as one of her parents will be Luke or Leia, and the story arc of the saga will be looked more as 3 generations of Skywalker now.

It will be interesting to see in a few years when there is a similar thread, "1-6 fans reactions to the ST." And many fans will not be able to stomach that it is not about the Rise, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker anymore.

 

My biggest issue with the Prequels, is just how unnecessary they were. George Lucas created Star Wars as an homage to the space serials of the 1930s which often started in the middle of a story so they would skip the boring back story and get right into the thick of things. Which is why GL starts with episode IV and why the first scene is a space battle. We learn all the back story we need from Obi-Wan, Yoda, Uncle Ben, and various other characters along the way. Also to all the people who say that a lot of OT fans are overly critical of the Prequel trilogy , why shouldn't they be? The Original Trilogy is one of the best series of movies ever, if not the best, so of course we should hold the Prequels to a very high standard, and while parts of the Prequels were good, a majority of it falls short of the standards set before it.

 

It's still the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker. It is now also his legacy from what he did as both Anakin and Vader that drives the story.

All of the films were unnecessary. TESB and ROTJ were unnecessary since ANH told the story in one film. That doesn't change that Lucas didn't want to tell the story. The more he developed the backstory, the more he saw that he could tell that story one day. Which is why he and Kurtz tried to get the studio to allow "Episode IV" to be in the title crawl before it was released. A battle which he lost, but was able to change later on.

And that is the problem. They were too busy wanting it to be something that it was never going to be and so they get angry over it. Instead of taking the films on their own merits.

 

So basically you're saying that it's inferior and we should just accept it for that and stop hoping for something better?

 

People don't use the same elements to judge if something works for them. Plus, people not liking PT aren't wrong, same with fill in the blank other aspect of SW. Same with liking anything in SW. We don't have to please others only ourselves. Regardless how many about here make ridiculous 'demands'.

 

No, that the films should have been judged on its own merits and not because of some expectation set by another set of films. There was twenty years of hype and build up. There was no way it was ever going to live up to that, regardless of the quality of each film in the PT. Even if all three were good as you would define it, they would still be inferior in some way.

 

Ok a couple of points to make on this.

Why shouldn't they be judged on the basis of the hype?....it was only on the basis of that hype that they were (or realistically could be) made.

But...being more reasonable - this argument seems a little....off..given your usual position on the connection between the OT and the PT. You argue, for instance, as if the OT is best seen in the light of the PT. You argue as if the OT is only complete within the structure of the PT-OT saga. So..you offer a kind of demand that the OT is sumblimated to the PT, that (in some magically pre-ordained and pre-planned way) the OT can only be properly understood through the illumination of it's 'true' concepts by the PT....and then suggest that the PT shouldn't be judged by the expectation of the OT?

The point that darth_revan96 was making was that the OT stood perfectly well on its own merits.... it didn't require the PT to tell any back-story.

I'll add to that that...if it claims to do that then...of course it is going to be judged on that basis. For me (and I can only speak personally) the Vader produced by the PT doesn't work as the Vader we find in ANH. The PT introduces a whole load of extraneous guph that adds nothing to the story. It (imo) hugely undermines the impact of the final scenes between Luke and Vader...and alters the symbolism and 'message' of those scenes (removing the universality of message and replacing it with narrow exceptionalism, for instance). It lacks character engagement, partly because it lacks any real character developments (one of the driving forces of the OT). It's pacing is awful, it's narrative sloppy and disjointed. Too much that is supposed to be the story occurs off-screen (between movies often), there's too much tell and not enough show.

Of course I'm going to judge it on the basis of what it intends to precede. What it could have been...and what it ended up being...yeah I'm going to judge that. Even more so when I'm being told....the story I knew was actually always secondary to....always actually was part of this greater saga ...but we just didn't know it.

 

You're misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is that when each film was made, they needed to be judged on their own first and foremost. Not due to the expectation that it needed to be the same exact type of film. Not due to hype either. I liked TPM not because I thought it was as good as the OT, but because it was a good film in its own right. It's the same way that I judge "Highlander The Source" as a bad film, despite there being four films and two television series before it. I don't judge it compared to the other stories, but because it was a really bad film outright. I judged each of the other entries on their own merits and found the ones that I liked to be good on their own terms. Then when I compared them to each other, I found that they still worked despite their differing quality. The one that didn't work due to quality wasn't going to change when compared to the others. It was bad from the get go and I judged it on its own merits.

 

I was first introduced to SW during the OT. The PT came and I enjoyed those as well. I know a lot of people judge the PT based on a few lines by Obi Wan in ANH. Fine, whatever. But I am personally glad that there was some ambiguity between the trilogies and it wasn't a paint by the numbers comparison. I mean Ben called Anakin "a good friend". Now I know some folks don't see that happening in the PT. Well I did. What is "a good friend" anyway? Well what that means to me will differ than anyone else. I guess some people needed to see Obi Wan and Anakin in the Jedi temple locker room snapping towels on each others rear ends and bromancing each other while guzzling beer then smashing the can on each others heads. Yeah it seems some people really need that type of assurance to justify Obi Wan's claim in ANH.

But as far as the other hope goes, well Leia fit the bill at the end of TESB. I mean do people really think that Leia just happened to know Luke needed to be rescued by chance? As Luke was calling out to her? It was a dead giveaway who the other hope was in that scene. Even if it wasn't a concrete fact by that point.

And yes expectations did paly a part in some peoples dissatisfaction with the PT. I mean some people just come right out and state it. When they say, "I didn't EXPECT things to happen this way". This is not directed at EVERYONE. Just to those it applies to. They are out there. They know who they are. But yes it did play a part to some of those concerns.

In the end I am happy that Lucas went the way he did and told his story the way he wanted to. And some people didn't want to see that, oh well? Life sucks sometimes, just got to deal with it.

 

Well, no...I never thought I needed to see *that*, but now that you've put those mental images in my head…yeah, I kinda do want to see that.

An anthology film perhaps?

 

I know you are in the middle of an argument with someone else, but there are statements in your post I must dispute:

Both Obi-Wan and Anakin have arcs in the prequels, just as Luke and Han had in the OT. There is an issue that is common to all movies in the saga, which may be raised: Years pass between movies, so when we meet the characters in each film, they`ve changed from when we had last seen them (which is to be expected). Example: ANH ends with farm-boy Luke getting a medal. ESB begins with Luke already a commanding leader of the Rebellion. His rise to leadership and his gaining confidence and leadership skills happen between movies. Same between ESB and ROTJ. ROTJ starts with Luke suddenly a powerful and wise Jedi Master completely different from when we last saw him in ESB. He clearly developed between movies. We don`t get to see it.

You are free to dislike PT characters and theit arcs, since liking characters is completely subjective, but the arcs are there.

Is there anything you needed to see that you didn`t?

 

Ive never understood how people couldnt tell they were friends. I could even at a very young age. In ANH, Obiwan says Anakin was a good friend not his buddy.