Saga OT Fans' Reactions to the PT

I don`t make that distinction.

I think Anakin was the best friend Obi-Wan ever had, and also the closest he got of something akin to a family. Anakin`s betrayal clearly breaks his heart. That`s what I needed to see, and that`s what the movies showed me.

 

Yanksfan Yeah they will have an anthology film about the Jedi temple locker room antics! lol

 

Ok..a really quick response to this.

You say that Luke goes from getting a medal in ANH o being a leader of the rebellion. Yes his 'rise to leadership' occurs off-screen..but it is hardly a difficult transition - he destroyed the Death Star, he'd helped rescue Leia and get the plans for the Death Star to the rebels.

At the end of TPM we have a young boy who "knows nothing of greed" who "gives without thought of reward" and we find this same character at the beginning of AOTC a self-centred young man who wants....... everything. At the end of that movie he has shown himself utterly incapable of behaving as a Jedi; he's just committed mass-murder, he's disobeyed every order he's been given, he's rushed in like an idiot into each and every situation he's been faced with. He has, in short, failed miserably in every test that was put before him. We catch up with him in ROTS as a Jedi Knight, feted and respected... The character developments in the OT are to do with their growth as people, how they view the world and how they deal with people, and there is a sense of what it is that changes them. In the PT characters just change and behave in certain ways seemingly because the plot requires that they behave that way.

Is there anything I needed to see that I didn't? For me....how did that boy who knows nothing of greed become the self-centred jerk in AOTC/ How did all the shenanigans of AOTC get brushed under the carpet such that Anakin became a respected Jedi Knight by ROTS? How did Padmé transition from an indomitable, independent presence to a simpering hanger-on by ROTS? That's just for starters.

 

How does that indicate leadership skills? He simply showed bravery and very good aim, which only make him a hero, not a leader. If a military gave everyone who displayed bravery and good aim command of an army, they would be horribly inefficient. The truth is that we had no reason whatsoever to think that Luke would become a leader at the end of ANH, but there he is in ESB, with his own Rebel base. And that`s not even the greatest unseen change of the character, that happens between ESB and ROTJ.

This is incorrect. He isn`t greedy in the way that he wants more political power for himself, he wants it for others (someone wise, in his words). He wants to be recognized, he wants Padme to reciprocate his feelings, and he wants to save the people he cares about. Hardly everything.

Anyway, there is a time jump between TPM and AOTC (just as there was between ANH and ESB), so Anakin does change, but as you put it, it`s hardly a difficult transition. This is a boy that was brought up in a caring home with a loving mother, and he was suddenly stripped of that and indoctrinated into a culture that doesn`t know attachment. His peers are brought up since baby age to not form attachments, so they can`t reciprocate his need for one, and thus he becomes what he becomes.

Why shouldn`t he be? There is a war going on, and he is the stronger with the Force than anyone else, and the Jedi believe him to be the Chosen One (an idea corroborated by his faring better against Count Dooku than Obi-Wan). He obviously fought in the war, since the Jedi are military leaders. I don`t see your point here. Do you argue the Jedi would never have made him a knight? It`s a time of war, and they need every Jedi they can have. Do you argue they should have expelled him? I don`t think there is basis to conclude that the Jedi even expell people, I don`t think they do. Is it another point?

Not every arc is a positive one, or makes the characters better people. Maybe the most common example of a negative arc is Macbeth`s growing greed and ambition in Shakespeare`s play (note: I`m not comparing Anakin`s fall to Macbeth`s arc, I`m using Macbeth as an example to prove a point).

We knew going in that the PT would have a negative arc, since it`s the story of Anakin`s downfall.

We also know what makes Anakin and Obi-Wan change.

Please provide examples.

Already explained in my first quoting of your post.

He is a war hero. He is incredibly exceptional, which makes his feats also exceptional. I dealt with this above also.

What are you referring to? To Padme not doing battle? What did you want her to do? Grab a blaster and go head-on against Count Dooku`s droid armies? She was a politician. Are you referring to her crying? Because if I had a husband that went mad and helped to purge the Order that raised him and turned evil, I`d cry too. Quite a lot, possibly.

Please, do continue.

 

Lukes character arc is terrible he progresses so fast that most of it you dont get to see.

 

Well...for one, I offered a level of leeway to your 'argument'. You say he has become a "leader"..but he isn't given any rank in ESB. He is injured by the wampa during a reconnaissance mission. He is, in fact, an active member of the rebellion. But....how being a good aim would assist in his (as I already said) helping to rescue Leia from the Death Star and bringing the plans (with R2-D2) from Tatooine, via said Death Star, to Yavin. So..I wonder how this works. Luke ends ANH as a successful agent for the rebellion and begins TESB as...an active agent of the rebellion. I really don't see the confusion.

Perhaps, though, you have missed the point. Where Luke leaves off at the end of one film there is a perfectly viable (ie consistent, narratively congruent) pick up of his position within the next movie. Let me highlight what I mean by contrasting that with what we have with Anakin. Between TPM and AOTC, and then between AOTC and ROTS we have the previous movie end with one characterisation, and the following movie picks him up in....well, there's no better way of putting this, in an entirely opposite state. From a boy who "gives without thought of reward" to a self-centred, whiny jerk. From bungling, incompetent, messed up, mass-murdering maniac to respected and revered Jedi Knight. All of the character development (read change...thats how it works) has occurred off-screen, between movies.

He wants to be given more freedom, he wants more "powers", he wants Padmé and he wants to be a Jedi. He wants to chop up the Tuskens, he wants to tell Obi-Wan what their mission is, he wants to attack Dooku alone. He wants, he wants, he wants...and whatever he wants he does.

....you tell yourself that story. Which you have to because....we aren't told that story, we certainly aren't shown that story. Does Palpatine have nothing to do with it, do you think? Is there no attachment between Obi-Wan and Anakin? Odd that you should use this argument here...yet in the same thread argue that Obi-Wan and Anakin are clearly friends...how does that make sense?

I mean...this is the story isn't it? How the boy who knows nothing of greed becomes Vader...he's essentially Vader by AOTC...people just think he's a Jedi.

You don't see my point? He has disobeyed every single order he has been given in AOTC. He has put Padmé's life in danger by taking her to Tatooine and then to Geonosis (and...the argument 'Padmé decided to go to Geonosis' would hardly put him in a good light as a capable Jedi) - his role was to protect Padmé, remember?. He's shown himself to be completely incapable of grasping what it is to be a Jedi. His actions on Tatooine caused a huge disturbance in the Force which Yoda felt. He rushed in idiotically to attack Dooku and...pretty much single-handedly allowed Dooku to get away. He has done absolutely NOTHING right. Yet by ROTS...nobody mentions any of this. Whatever he has done "right" to overcome his obvious deficiencies as a Jedi have all occurred (again) between the movies, off-screen.

Let's use Macbeth as an example. So...we start the story with young Macbeth; he's a happy-go-lucky kid, popular with the other boys his age and we see him get into some scrapes. He comes across three 'wise women' who tell him one day he will be King.

We pick the story up a few years later. He's a bit more sullen now..again he gets into some scrapes...and he's a soldier so, there's a level of brutality about him He meets this girl and falls in love with her and marries her, and she has such belief in him

We next pick the story up when Macbeth is King, but he's really paranoid and keeps seeing visions of the old King sitting in his chair, he kills of his old mate from his younger days...because of his paranoia. etc. etc.

That story loses something because the events that lead to his character development (change) aren't shared with the audience. We have to fill the blanks. Maybe he's just suffering from chemical imbalances...who knows. His becoming King (how he gets there) is an important part of the story.

As another attempt to explain how character development works. Let's say Han Solo only appearss very briefly at the beginning of the movie and simply gives Obi-Wan and Luke a lift to some middler-man planet with virtually no interaction..then he re-appears at the end, shoots Vader's TIE fighter and whoops some cheery message to Luke. That would make no sense because Han's change here is based around the interaction and friendship between the characters.

We don't know what makes Anakin change. We are not shown what makes Anakin change...that's the point. You have filled the gap (between movies) with some notion that you feel comfortable with, but we aren't shown that. What makes Anakin change doesn't occur in the movies.

The whole Jedi order seemingly taking no action against Anakin for his antics in AOTC. The Senate being incapable of figuring out they can vote for the army without giving their power away to the Chancellor. Obi-Wan becoming the most useless lightsabre practitioner of all time when he battles Dooku, Padmé becoming a simpering 'yes' woman to Anakin, the Jewdi taking no precautions regarding the clone army and seemingly forgetting all about the whole 'mystery of Sifo-Dyas' thing, Mace putting aside everythin g he kinows about Palpatine and the clones and deciding not to warn any other Jedi about how events are moving on, Obi-Wan being concerned about his padawan's possible attachment issues with Padmé but then not caring one bit just a few days later, Padmé thinking Dooku was behind the assassination attempt...with seemingly no evidence, the Jedi thinking Dooku having left the order would still be acting like a Jedi (despite the company he now keeps). Padmé deciding that she's madly in love with a mass-murdering psycopath who has thought about her every day since they last saw each other.....who he has told is just like he remembers in his dreams.

Only in your mind (literally..whatever story you have for that change is your invention...it doesn't occur in the movies. That story is not told)

...a war hero in some evenmts that have occurred between AOTC and ROTS. No explanation of how his shenanigans from AOTC are dealt with by the Jedi. None at all. Did anybody even speak to him?

I'm referring to her being a simpering hanger on with absolutely no personality of her own throughout ROTS,. She is simply an extension of Anakin's characterization. She is nothing but a subordinate cipher to Anakin.

Anybody can throw a bone. Could you put some meat on that?

 

ANAKIN: "Your guidance more than my patience."

Because there was a war on and it was all hands on deck.

Uh, he's called Commander Skywalker by most of the Rebels and Rogue Squadron members. Even Han uses it when talking to Major Derlin. He's in charge of Rogue Squadron as Rogue Leader.

Luke did the same things in TESB. He went against Yoda and Obi-wan who told him to not to rush off to rescue his friends. He showed disrespect to Yoda when he first met him. Argued with Yoda over the simplest things. Took his weapons into the cave. He rushed to face Vader and got his ass handed to him. He's done nothing right since leaving Hoth. Yet in ROTJ, Luke is said to be ready to be a Jedi now.

Because they don't know what he did. This is covered in ROTS when we learn that only Palpatine knows what happened with the Tusken Raiders, outside of Padme.

They know that they can do that, but they can't agree to vote at all. They're divided up between those who want to fight (Aks Aak) and those who don't (Bail Organa). They're ineffective. They're the most indecisive body of government ever. Half of them are just willing to let the Confederacy walk all over them.

He's going up against a superior fighter who spent his whole life training in Lightsaber combat. Obi-wan's mainly trained to block blaster bolts.

She's hardly a yes woman. She does fight to save her husband's soul.

There's a war on. That takes priority.

His overconfidence was his weakness.

He does care. He just lets it go thinking that she can be of importance to him.

Because the vote in the Senate was no big secret and it was reasonable to assume that the leader of a growing separatist movement might strike a blow by attacking her.

Arrogance that was a flaw among Jedi, even those as old as Yoda.

She was falling in love before he killed the Tusken Raiders. She loves him in spite of that because she sees the good in him.

They did. He lied. He said that he was upset over his mother's death, but that's all that happened. Only Padme and Palpatine knew what he did.

 

Oddly....that isn't the story that Defensor told...

and...show not tell. So the events that change Anakin occur off-screen but...that's ok because Anakin says "your guidance more than my patience"...ok. That's shown me. That's how you tell a story.

So...he's made a Jedi knight because there's a war on? There's no reason to expect a Jedi knight to understand the most basic concepts of what it takes to be a Jedi because...war. It's not like he's some insignificant character who 'gets a pass...because'. He's supposed to be the Chosen One....who will bring balance to the Force.....but his inability to grasp the most basic tenets of doing Jedi are overlooked. Whatever it was that occurred on Tatooine.....ahh...forget about it....

The events of AOTC and how they are dealt with are simply....not addressed in any sense by ROTS.Sorry but, for me, "war" is not a compelling answer to the issues raised by AOTC. At all.

??

So marriage is a kind of passivity instigator for women? Is that hat you're saying? Padmé gets married so...she ceases to be herself and becomes the property of her master...err husband? If not...please explain.

Plus.....ooohh, I'm just like he remembers form his dreams AND a mass-murderer..mmm..dreamy....must marry him...???!

First..I don't remember "most" of the rebels calling him Commander. But..as I have already said. He helped to release Leia from her imprisonment on the Death Star as well as delivering R2-D2 from Tatooine to the rebels with the plans of the Death Star and then single-handedly destroyed the Death Star (by choosing to by-pass the electronic systems which had already failed). I think it's fair to say he has shown himself to be relatively competent. But...the real issue is that his state in TESB is not the complete opposite of the state he was in in ANH. He hasn't become a washed up alcoholic who's given up on life. He ends ANH a hero of the rebellion and we pick him up in TESB an active hero of the rebellion.

No, no, no, no no. Luke finishes his training with Yoda and Yoda tells him he is NOT a Jedi yet. That first he must confront Vader. This is absolutely my gripe with how Anakin became a Jedi knight. The whole point of Luke's jopurney here is that he 'gets' what it is to be a Jedi through his confrontation with Vader. That it isn't about powers or lightsabre skills but that..he understands that Vader isn't 'out there' (the lesson of the cave) but in him. He absolutely at that moment 'groks' what it is to do Jedi....and only at that point is he a Jedi. But....Anakin never did that. Anakin clearly never 'got' what it was to be a Jedi....so how has he become one?

How? That's my question. What did he tell Yoda? That he caught his thumb with a hammer? What? And what of the rest of it? You know..disobeyed every order he had been given, completely failed in the one duty he had been tasked with. And...despite Obi-Wan's warnings about his attachment to Padmé..despite his clear failings as a Jedi...at thge end of AOTC they think it wise to have Anakin escort Padmé back to Naboo...why?? Why does she even need escorting?

This is just guph. They vote for exactly the thing you say they can't agree to. They vote for emergency powers so that the army can be ok'd...they vote for exactly that. They apparently can't agree to an army but they can agree to an army......it's a ludicrous, meaningless story-line.

...and he defeats Maul, Grievious and Vader..but he gets owned by Dooku.....it's not even close. He looks like he's never used a lightsabre before...

Would that be when she asks him to hold her...like before the war...after he's snapped at her and told her to know her place? Would that be when she blubs and tells him she can't follow where he is going? Would that be when she "gives up the will to live"?

Ah...that 'catch-all' again. War....so, never mind that the Jedi are surrounded by welltrained soldiers who "follow orders without question" of...questionable origin (but whose template just happened to work for a Sith Lord..)

Or..his stupidity was. How long would it have taken? 5 minutes?

Yeah...because hios attachment to her had been shown to him to be such a boon to Anakin's decision making skills...I can see where he got the idea his attachment ot Padmé might be good for him......

?? So...if he was leading a possibly aggressive Separatist movement..he would want to kill the Senator who is intent on keeping the Republic militarily weak? yeah...makes sense.....

You keep using "arrogance" where "stupidity" is a much better fit. Why did he leave the Jedi? Because he didn't agree with their solutions...perhaps? So.....come on.....it doesn't take a rocket scientist. And if his Separatist breakaway is seen as posing a danger of war with the Republic....Yeah, seems like a perfectly peaceable kind of guy...who the Jedi aren't sure they can protect the Republic against.

Why? Because she's like he remembers her in his dreams? because he's thought of her everyday since they last saw each other? Because of the creepy looks he gives her? And...at the end...a woman who abbhors such acts...overlooks his...indiscretion.

As I've said elsewhere. i can get that she cares for him, that she wants to help 'fix' him but....that doesn't corrolate with wanting to marry him. Like...oh, here's the perfect guy to spend my life with and have children with....

They did. He lied. He said that he was upset over his mother's death, but that's all that happened. Only Padme and Palpatine knew what he did.[/quote]

And you know this....how? You don't know this. You have to invent this because...it all happened off-screen, between the movies.

 

Um…wait. what? How is this picture of their wedding a response to what only one kenobi said?

*bites lip* And oh god…please don't be on the verge of offending me….


EDIT: Oh, good. I see you were just as confused by this response as I was, only one.

 

He has. It is one of the first things we read, right there in the opening crawl. He leads the Hoth Rebel group. His rank is "Commander", in case you missed it.

Oh yes, in the way that he wants something, he does, just like any other character. Only people in severe depression don`t want anything. But that`s not what your our post referred to, was it? You spoke of greed and self-centering, which are associated with people wanting everything for themselves, which is what I responded to.

This is an obvious conclusion, from things shown in both movies. In TPM, the Council deems the boy too old to be trained, and fears for his feelings regarding his mother. In AOTC, we see he has problems with the Rule of No Attachment, and besides pining for Padme, he misses his mother. The Council`s reservations regarding Anakin are proven right. Why Anakin has problems with the Rule is explained back in TPM: he is too old for this.

Palpatine has everything to do with it. It is due to his influence that Anakin falls to the Dark Side. But he wouldn`t be able to exert that influence hadn`t Anakin been attached to people. That`s what allows Palpatine to act.

While Obi-Wan gradually grows fond of Anakin during the PT, when the time comes, he is able to let Anakin go. He is able to leave him to die. So no, there`s no attachment.

You are obviously confusing the ideas of attachment to the idea of friendship. Jedi can have friends, they cannot form attachments. Yoda was friend with the wookies, for example. Obi-Wan considers Anakin to be family, but when the time comes, he idoesn`t let that cloud his judgement, and he lets him go. That`s what no attachments mean.

I disagree completely. He is still distant from Vader in AOTC. He is still capable to be good and heroic there. He does unforgivable things due to his emotions, but he still a good man.

No, I don`t.

You would like him to completely disregard her free will and keep her on Tatooine?

Yes, and he doesn`t leave Padme.

And does the council know that?

Yes, they did. Yoda doesn`t know what happened specifically though.

Dooku would have defeated them both either way, together or not. Anakin saves Obi-Wan from certain death in the duel, remember?

You overlook the fact that when the Clone Wars start, the Jedi are forced out of their roles as keepers of the peace and are deployed to fight a war. Anakin is exceptional, and he advances due to his success in the war. Did you really need to see him being knighted? What would that have achieved?

That`s the point I initially raised in my first comment, before you responded: The Star Wars movies have years that pass between them. It is a reality of the franchise. As such, when we meet the characters again at the beginning of each movie, they are in different points in their lives. Your example of Han is an invalid comparison, as that`s his arc in one movie, and there`s no time jump there. In arcs that last trilogies, they will inevitably suffer the consequences of the time jump that happens between the trilogies. Thus my example of Luke changing a lot between ANH and ESB and between ESB and ROTJ, and we being left to connect the dots and fill in the blanks.

You are free to dislike that kind of storytelling, but it`s used in both trilogies.

In regards to your new outline of Macbeth (since that`s quite different from the play), I think Lady Macbeth`s a much better analog to Palpatine than to Padme. She is the one who corrupts her husband and the one who kills Duncan. Anyway, I don`t really understand why you changed the play so much. If you would like to draw a comparison (which is not what I was trying to do, as stated in my "note" in my previous post), why not use the original play?

It does. He is taken from his mother and turned into a Padawan; and he falls in love and marries. The most important events of his life are shown.

The Jedi Order doesn`t know about most of them. Yoda senses a disturbance in the Force, that`s all. The rest is knowledge privy to either Obi-Wan or Padme. Even if they did, what do you think they would do? Punish Anakin? And to be very honest, Count Dooku has escaped and started a war. What they do know of Anakin`s behaviour is a lesser worry.

Oh, this again. You and I have discussed this matter in another thread before, and you were seemingly agreeing with me in the end. What has changed?

To the point: they can`t vote the army in time. That`s why immediate emergency powers are needed.

Count Dooku was one of the most powerful lightsabre duelists of his time. At the time of AOTC, the only ones who can overcome him are probably Yoda and Sidious. And Yoda has trouble with it.

When does that happen?

The Jedi have a war to fight and a Republic to protect. Do you think they should have just put the Clone Army aside and said: "Nope, thank you very much. We will surrender to Count Dooku and his Separatists before we use this army!"

This is due to arrogance, which is a trait of Mace`s. How is that him going off character for plot reasons? Mace is arrogant and we know that.

Obi-Wan cares. It`s just that a few days later there is a war going on.

If the Republic votes an army, the Separatists grow suspicious about Palpatine`s negotiations and separate. I can tell you I`d be very weary of negotiating with someone while that someone is making an army. Dooku is the head of the Separatist movement and wants more systems to join him. He is a credible suspect.

Did the Jedi know Dooku was in league with the Sith? No.

How does that make her act off-character? We have no idea how Padme romances when not around Anakin, nothing to compare to what`s going on in the movie. Maybe she thinks dark brooding guys are the way to go. We don`t know of Padme`s past romantic life. Falling for Anakin is not off-character, just like Leia falling for Han is not off-character.

This is addressed above, again.

Also dealt with above.

You simply repeated your previous statement. If you would like to provide more meat to the argument that she is off-character in relation to the previous movie, we can continue.

She is a secondary character. The whole movie revolves around Palpatine, Anakin and Obi-Wan. And Padme still keeps the essence of her character from AOTC.

You can`t possibly think that I should be held responsible for other member`s post.

 

The very idea of this would cause smoke to come from Princess Leia's hair buns!

 

Do you not see the disjoint between these two positions?

you say it is "an obvious conclusion" yet.....it clearly isn't that obvious as another poster has a very different conclusion that they have come to. But that's the point. You don't know what changed Anakin because....that story isn't told. You have to create your own story as to what happened. What changed Anakin isn't a story that is told....and that is the story that is supposed to be being told.

So..it's not about "blaming" you for someone else's view. It's about the distinction between a narrative where the events that change characters are the story, and...the PT

 

Says who?

 

yeah...I mean, sure..you could just have a narrator read the story out. Not sure that would pass muster as much of a movie.....

(or...to put that another way...anybody whose looking to tell a story by means of a movie?)

 

Or you can accept the basic fact that movies don't go on forever and have to rely on dialogue/text/etc to provide more information that you can't show due to the limited amount of time you have.

"Show, don't tell" is not an universal rule of filmmaking or storytelling. No need to treat it as such.

 

It's a pretty popular concept in primary school writing classes too!

 

And Lucas did the same thing with the OT, when he didn't show us all the growth that happened between films. Besides, we see Palpatine's influence on Anakin with the picnic scene.

"Here with Obi-Wan we get a little sense that Anakin has some relationship with Palpatine and that he likes Palpatine. In the last film we set up the fact that Palpatine was gonna watch after Anakin."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"So we have this little picnic where Anakin brings out the uncomfortable subject of previous boyfriends which boys have a tendency to do, and then we get into this political discussion which allows us to get a little insight into Anakin and Palpatine's influence over Anakin and some of his thought process."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"I had all these hints that Palpatine had been helping Anakin. But I needed an explicit scene that actually spelled it out. And where you can see some of Anakin’s dialog later on has come from Palpatine."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"In the original script, there were subtle inferences that there was some kind of relationship between Anakin and Palpatine. There was dialogue where Anakin said he thought Palpatine was a good Chancellor and not like other politicians, so it was obvious that he knew him. But when I saw the first cut of the movie, I realized that we needed to push that point harder. As it was, the inferences were a little bit too subtle. Although the relationship between Anakin and Palpatine doesn't really relate to this movie - it's more important to the next movie - I had to set that up because it was important in the overall arc of the story. So I wrote that little scene to show Palpatine's influence on Anakin and his role as a mentor."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

None the less that's the story. Anakin told the Council that he went back to check on his mother and was too late. The Council did not press harder on the subject and following his actions during a few key missions following the start of the war, Anakin was given the rank of Jedi Knight.

The point was that while Padme did have strength, she began to put it into her marriage. She still fights for the Senate as we see in those deleted scenes, but she starts fighting for her marriage as well. She starts feeling helpless to help Anakin because he's shutting her out with his obsessions and she doesn't know where to turn to. Then she's told her husband did some awful things and then she sees it for herself that he's changed. If she hadn't gotten so involved with Anakin, she wouldn't have had a broken heart from his betrayal.

It's not marriage in general that's the problem, but married to this particular person.

She loves Anakin because he's a handsome man that she trusted. Someone that she could open up to and feel unburdened from the burdens of life. She loved him because she could see the kind and compassionate man, despite the dark cloud that hung over his head. He was someone that was her best friend as is the case in all good relationships.

RIEEKAN: "Commander Skywalker reported in yet?"

HAN: "Do you know where Commander Skywalker is?"

DERLIN: "Sir, Commander Skywalker hasn't come in through the south entrance. He might have forgotten to check in."

ZEV: "This is Rogue Two. This is Rogue Two. Captain Solo, do you copy? Commander Skywalker, do you copy? This is Rogue Two."

Dack and Wedge were the only ones in Rogue Squadron to call him Luke.

Right, who had advanced to a high ranking position in three years. Something not seen. He's also no longer just a farm boy at this point in time either. He's also got a lot more anger issues in this film, than he had in ANH.

YODA: "Luke! You must complete the training."

YODA: "Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training."

So Luke wasn't trained all the way.

Because Jedi trails don't require defeating Sith Lords. Anakin had passed his own trial between Geonosis and Christophsis. But just because he passed it doesn't mean ****, as Dooku proved. Same with Barris and Krell. A Jedi is always on his/her guard against the dark side. The temptation to fall is ever present so long as they live. No Jedi is immune from it once they've passed their trials. That was the lesson Obi-wan learned after Satine's death. That was the lesson many Jedi in the old EU had to learn.

1. Anakin told him that he got upset that his mother died, but not that he sought revenge.

2. Anakin's presence on Tatooine was already known to the Jedi Council. And it was most likely Padme who defended the decision to go to Geonosis.

3. Anakin escorted her home because his duty was not over. Nute Gunray was not in custody, despite Jango's death. Ergo, she was still a target. Obi-wan is the one who sent them off alone, not the Council which is why Mace doesn't know where he's at.

The Emergency Powers Act was created by the Senate long ago, in case something like this happened. They could give authority to someone else to decide on the best course of action. Palpatine is the one who authorizes it.

1. He loses to Maul. He only manages to gravely wound him because he decided to be arrogant and didn't mind his surroundings.

2. Grievous was a non Jedi. That's why the fight was short.

3. Anakin was beaten by his own hubris. Had he not chosen to jump over him, rather than just run up the embankment, Obi-wan would be dead.

4. Dooku wasn't that arrogant which is why Obi-wan couldn't beat him, both alone and with Anakin.

Besides, Obi-wan never said that he was a great warrior.

That would be when she tries to dissuade him from his fears for her, when they're in their apartment. And again when she begs him to come away with her, and to stop what he's doing. Leia also cried as well when she worried for Luke.

The Jedi had no recourse. They believed that the key to victory was with the Clone Army which is why they kept using them.

Mace believed that he could take out Palpatine before he could do anything.

Over three years, Anakin was no longer as brooding and angry as he had been. He was able to open up to Padme when he couldn't with Obi-wan. He knew this which is why he went to her before going to Utapau. He was concerned that Anakin was becoming confused by his relationship to her, but he also saw her as the best chance for helping him. That's why he told her to talk to him and try to get him to open up. He just underestimated how strong the boy's attachment was too her.

The Council did not sense the dark side within him. They didn't see anything other than his idealism at work, which was not unusual given how he was. They had believed that he couldn't fall to the dark side and that he was at best playing aggressive negotiations with the Senate.

She overlooks the Tusken Slaughter because she cannot blame him for what he did. Given the state her body was in and how violent they were. As to the rest, as I said, she loves him because she saw the good man that he was and she loved that. Love is blind.

Just like a lot of *** did in the OT. Why did Leia fall in love with a drug smuggler that lead to a lot of shattered lives? Oh, because he stayed to fight, that somehow made him husband worthy? Luke feels the good in his father, but shows no sign of it earlier?

 

There are hardly any 'universal' storytelling 'rules' at all. Simply a lot of people that love to pass off their preferences as 'universal rules'.

 

I meant it more in the way that I shouldn`t be asked to justify another person`s post, just like I can`t ask you to justify another poster`s opinion. I don`t think my point and darth-sinister`s point should be intertwined nor mixed up. His statements are his and mine are mine.

I still think it is crystal clear from the movies that attachments are what lead to Anakin`s downfall: we are shown that the Jedi were worried about him being too old and about him being attached to his mother, we are shown that the Jedi prohibit attachment, and we are shown that attachments are what pushes Anakin to the Dark Side (e.g. anger for losing his mother, fear of losing Padme). Palpatine preys on that, as I stated here:

But he has to have something to prey on. The Dark Side had to be there to tempt Anakin, but what makes him suscetible to its temptation are his issues of attachments. Even if darth-sinister disagrees (And I`m not entirely sure he does from what I`ve seen of his posts - if it isn`t trouble, darth-sinister, I`d like to ask you to state if you agree or not with my position), I can certainly think something is clear without everyone else agreeing. You obviously don`t agree, since we are having this argument.

A similar position: I recall reading a post (EDIT: Seeing the post above mine, it was Cushing`s Admirer, who I respect a lot and agree with on other SW matters) that stated that Luke and Tarkin are on the same moral ground, being both "gray" characters. I think it is clear from ANH that Tarkin is cruel and ruthless, but that poster interprets it another way. Despite his/her disagreement, I still think Tarkin`s cruelty is "obvious" in the movie. He/She is obviously free to interpret it anyway he/she sees fit, of course. Not everyone sees the same as me. Another example: I think it`s clear from the movies that Anakin is the Chosen One. Yet there is a thread on these boards in which people state they think Luke is the Chosen One. My thinking that something is clear doesn`t really require everyone else to see it the same way.

 

Errmm...no. The events that shape the changes (character development) occur on-screen. As I said before about Han at the end of ANH. Just saying something is true doesn't make it true.

Lucas quotes are not the movies....

And....this hardly addresses that what you see as "clearly" being what occurred is not the same thing that another poster sees as being "clearly" what occurred....and neither actually occurs or is shown in the movies. So...you hae to fill that gap with a story of your own making.....

How is that "the story"? Where in the movies are we told, let alone shown this? Why did they not press harder? Why would they not press harder?

Alot more anger issues...lol. Just, what? These are such stretches, they really are. So....hero by the end of ANH, hero by TESB. Single handedly destroyed the Death Star, got R2-D2 from Tatooine, via the Death Star to Yavin, rescued Princess Leia along the way...and you act as if his becoming an important member of the rebellion in the interim is somehow equivalent to; mass-murdering maniac incapable of carrying out one simple mission becomes respected Jedi Knight. Ridiculous.

You seem to be back-tracking on your original point....which my no,no, no was disputing which was that you claimed that Luke was ready to be a Jedi. he wasn't, and was told in no uncertain terms that he was not yet a Jedi.

Well...I never said anything about defeating a Sith Lord being a part of the training. I said that he was told that he had to confroint Vader. And that it was what he learned during that confrontation (the lesson he should have learned in the cave) that made him a Jedi...that is what it is asll about to do Jedi. That is the story of Luke becoming a Jedi.

Then you go on about the Jedi never being immune from the darkside and mention some EU nonsense....but that was exactly what Luke's journey was about. It was that lesson that was what made a Jedi a Jedi. So...how did Anakin become one when he clearly never got that?

You haven't, in short, addressed the question at all.

None of which is in any way supported by (ie occurs in) the movies. You might as well have (I suspect you have) made this up yourself. If I want to make a story up myself...I don't need to pay to go to a movie. I can do that wherever I am.

Again...nothing in the movie supports this and it might as well have been (may have been) made up.

Hmmm...you have, perhaps, an odd idea of "loses to". As I recall...he cut Maul in half; Maul died, Obi-Wan lived. Even a Mayweather judge can't overcome that outcome.

But...Grievous carries many Jedi's lightsabres; he was taught by Dooku (clearly not very well because...well Dooku against Obi-Wan.....) He's not supposed to be a pushover.

or...had he jumped onto the ledge a little ways down and met Obi_wan on level ground.....but that's not, you know, anybody doing something because the script demands it or anything...I mean that cliff was huge wasn't it..lol.

But...how long did that fight go on for? Twenty seconds in with Dooku and obi-Wan's on his knees...a broken man...

He didn't need to break a sweat. he just parried a few attacks and nonchelantly swished away at Obi-Wan and..BOOM..he's down and finished. The most unconvincing 'match-up' I've seen.

...which doesn't really detract from my point. He defeated Maul, Grievous and Vader...yet twety seconds with Dooku and he's finished.

 

Defensor: I never said that Tarkin didn't do a 'cruel' thing in SW via Alderaan. But, yes, it IS my right to see everyone in SW as grey and ambiguous, thank you. BTW, I am a she and I have cause for my 'differentness'. In spite of how many act here difference in reading and perception is not 'wrong'.

 

I stand corrected. But you do seem to hold Tarkin and the Rebels as moral equals, if I`m not mistaken. Please correct me if I am, I read that post of yours days ago.

Sincere apologies for the gender confusion. It is hard to tell from online posting in English language.

And only one kenobi, although you seem to have overlooked the majority of my last responses, and are in the moment having an entirely different argument with darth-sinister, I`ll address a common point that was part of our debate, and to which I replied to (but you didn`t follow up):

You seem to think that lightsaber dueling is like math, and if someone has a certain "level" (or something as Dragon Ball-esque as that), that he should always be able to defeat others in a lesser "level". You ignore that there are numerous variables involved. Obi-Wan trained Anakin, he knows exactly how the other duels. He has a clear advantage. And Dooku is a better swordsman than either Maul or Grievous, I think that much is clear. Dooku`s superiority regarding Anakin is no plot hole, no matter how many times you try to spin it.

And I`ll address another point we`ve already had a discussion about in another thread (which you didn`t follow up either):

The idea that Emergency Powers are a well-known, legal thing is supported by the fact that everybody seems to grasp immediately what those Emergency Powers are. Mas Amedda suggests it, and everyone, including Jar Jar, knows instantly what he is talking about. Then Jar Jar proposes it to the Senate, which leads to its immediate approval. There is a sense that Emergency Powers are well-defined, clear powers that can voted to the Chancellor in times of crisis.

There were hundreds of similar institutions around the world that were meant to give extra powers to the Head of State or to the Head of the Military in difficult times. Many latin countries still have that kind of law institutionalized.

 

Defensor

I'm not having an entirely different discussion with darth-sinister - I seem to be having a very similar discussion.

I responded to your postm in the way I did because you seem to be making a great deal of this "look....the OT does the same" AND proposing that there is no issue with swathes of the story we are supposed to be being told occurring off-screen. There were two responses which actually addressed the same point...though you don't seem to have understood what I was getting at. You claim that it is "clear" that what changed Anakin is narrative 'x'. Another poster claims that what has "clearly" taken place is narrative 'y'. I'm not holding you responsible for that, I'm trying to explain that however "clear" you think the narrative is..it isn't. If it were then there could not be multiple narratives to explain the 'character development' (read change).

Now..the reason for that is because the events that bring about that change occur off-screen, between the movies. And...this isn't some small plot-point. This is the basis of how that giving boy og TPM became Vader...the story Lucas claims the PT is telling. I don't see anything about Anakin in AOTC which makes me think...wow, how could he become Vader.. I see a petulant brat who seeks to blame everybody else for his own failings, who is incapable of controlling his his emotions or desires...or even having any real awareness of them. And that change has all occurred between TPM and AOTC. The "how", what is supposed to be the story told, is left to the viewer to imagine.

"You seem to think that lightsaber dueling is like math, and if someone has a certain "level" (or something as Dragon Ball-esque as that), that he should always be able to defeat others in a lesser "level"."


Really? So...you take no account of what I said then? It's not a matter of me claiming that because he has defeated the others that I mentioned that he should be able to defeat Dooku....it is the manner in which he is defeated that strikes me as odd. It doesn't in any way convince me. He has a long duel with Maul, an even longer one with Vader and...not a scratch on him. Twenty seconds of Dooku nonchalantly swishing his lightsabre and he's on his knees, cut to ribbons. Each time he faces Dooku he looks like some twelve year old who's picked up a lightsabre for the first time....and yet in every other situation he looks like a master.

"Dooku`s superiority regarding Anakin is no plot hole, no matter how many times you try to spin it."

Who said it's a plot-hole? You asked for examples where characters behave in certain ways because the plot demands it.

All the stuff about whether or not there is some deep-lying legislation behind the "emergency powers" (and....you know, the two words "emergency" followed by "powers" is not a difficult concept to grasp - the fact that "everyone...understands it" is hardly evidence that legislation exists but..that's beside the point) misses the real issue that I have with the story here. The argument made is that - there is no way the Senate will agree to a vote for the use of the army..and all sorts of possible objections are put forward as to why. BUT...the vote for emergency powers is made "so that" Palpatine can make the decision to use the army..... It is the "so that" that is the problem here. They can't agree, they may have objections to the use of the army and would never agree but.....they all agree to the emergency powers "so that" the army can be used.

The simple problem here is that they vote for exactly the thing that we're told they could never agree to; they agree to the emergency powers "so that" the exact same thing they could never agree to comes about.

 

It seems very different to me. It now revolves around Yoda training Luke, whether or not that required fighting a Sith, quotes from George Lucas, and other things. It may have started like our discussion, but it has gone in a completely different direction than where ours was headed.

I`ll paraphrase this: I`m making an argument that characters from both trilogies change between the movies due to the time that has elapsed, and that their overall arcs still work in spite of it. I still think they work fine the way they are.

If the statement above is what you are saying in your quote above, than you are right, that`s my point. Part of it, anyway.

I have answered this in this very same thread:

If through that answer you still think I haven`t understood your point, then perhaps you are right, and I would ask you to rephrase it.

Continuing on with your post:

And I maintain they do not. Anakin`s main lifechanging events all happen within the movies. We see him leaving his mother and entering the Jedi, we see his mother dying and his grief, we see him falling in love and marrying, and we see giving in to the Dark Side to save his wife. Those are the main events that shape Anakin`s life, and we get to see all of it.

Weren`t you stating just a few posts ago he was already Vader in AOTC?

Yes, it is. I think the "why" he gets there is pretty clear though, as I`ve already stated.

Dooku is just that good. Simple as that. He is one of the best. Third all around in the galaxy, perhaps. Maul and Grievous are lesser oponents, and Obi-Wan has the clear advantage of having trained Anakin.

Analogy: My neighbour does jiu jitsu. He`s probably really good at it, and he fares quite well in local tournaments. Pit him against a national champion though, and he wouldn`t last 2 seconds.

I think that characters acting out of character qualifies as a plot-hole. It may not, but this is simply an argument of semantics. You think there is a narrative flaw there (characters acting out of character), I don`t think that flaw is present (I think the characters act in-character). Correct me if I`m wrong in interpreting your post.

Really? What emergency powers? What is the extent of them? What can the Chancellor do with them that he previously couldn`t? What does he still need the approval of the Senate to do? Can he make new laws? Or must he abide by those previous ones, just having more executive functions previously held by the Senate? If he has the power to make new laws, are there limits to that? Had the Emergency Powers not been defined, they would spend an eternity just solving what Emergency Powers mean, which would then make them pointless.

We`ve had this exact same discussion before, so I`ll quote from that other thread and we can continue from there (since it`s pretty much where we left off there):

 

Han still hadn't changed. He still cared about himself, which is part of the reason he leaves. He's still abrasive and he still has an attitude which Leia doesn't exactly like, yet she still falls in love with him.

Uh, they are since they're opening the window into why he filmed scenes, why he added or changed scenes and what characters are thinking.

It is clear, you just don't like the answers. Lucas painted the picture in the film that Palpatine has been talking to Anakin for ten years, getting into his head and influencing his thinking. He's undoing all the hard work that Obi-wan put into him. Obi-wan is the father figure that says, "You don't need to drink" and Palpatine is the cool uncle who buys a twelve pack and tells him to be discreet. Anakin says to Obi-wan in Padme's apartment that he distrusts most politicians, but he does trust Palpatine while Obi-wan says that even he cannot be trusted. We know that Palpatine wants a dictatorship and Anakin tells Padme that he buys into that. In AOTC, we see Palpatine tell Anakin that he will be greater than any Jedi and later, Anakin tells Padme that he's better than Obi-wan.

That is the story because that is the story. The Jedi were too trusting of Anakin to disbelieve what happened on Tatooine. Yoda senses pain in Anakin, but not that he was killing Tusken Raiders. And the fact is that they believed that they needed him because he might be the Chosen One foretold long ago.

Anakin fought bravely on Geonosis and on other worlds following that. He obeyed orders on most of those missions and had proved himself capable of being made a Knight. Luke hadn't touched the dark side yet, but like his father, he had anger issues. Issues that crop up where they weren't there in the previous film.

Luke was ready to be a Jedi in many ways, but he wasn't as ready as the traditional Jedi were. He was ready to face his trail after not falling on Cloud City. That was enough for Yoda and Obi-wan to tell him that he needed to go back and face Vader again.

I did address. Anakin took his own Jedi trial after Geonosis and before Christophsis. He had passed it, but he was not immune from falling. Just as Dooku wasn't immune either. Nor the Jedi who fell during the war. The point is that being a Jedi is a hard life and one that always deals with temptation. Luke himself could easily turn despite what he learned fighting his father. A Jedi must always battle the dark side within, just as an addict must always battle their impulse to their addiction.

It is supported in the films. The Council didn't know what he did, or he'd be expelled. They knew he was on Tatooine because of his transmission coming from Padme's ship and his tracking signal would mark him on Tatooine and not Naboo. As to escorting Padme, again, we know that Nute was behind the assassination attempts. Obi-wan knows this. Obi-wan also knows where he is, while Mace did not.

Everything that is in the film supports it. A Military Creation Act is in the Senate being discussed. A vote is difficult to obtain because there is not enough for a majority vote. Bail and Aks argue over the use of the Clone Army. Bail states that the Senate will not vote in time, but that the Emergency Powers can allow it to happen, per Mas Amedda.

Well, you're half right, he cut Maul in two. But he didn't kill him. But in terms of winning and losing, Maul kicked Obi-wan's ass. Maul's arrogance was his downfall.

Grievous was good against a scared Jedi, or someone not skilled enough in the Force. Against a competent Jedi, he loses easily. It's the equivalent of a white belt challenging a black belt. That's why every encounter he runs. He only has a true advantage against Obi-wan when the latter is without his Lightsaber.

Anakin fights great, but Dooku is a great fighter. That is the difference. What Dooku lacked in raw power, he made up for in finesse and skill. Also, Obi-wan taught Anakin how to fight. So he knows what he knows. He knows all of Anakin's ticks, foibles and tricks. That's why this part of the duel was done.



It was to show how alike they were in their fighting. They both set up a strike to mask a Force shove and both do it at the same time.

The most realistic. A swordsman who spent years learning his craft can take on someone of equal skill. Someone who doesn't do that will get his ass handed to him. Dooku studied fencing, Obi-wan studied blaster blocking.

[only one kenobi]...which doesn't really detract from my point. He defeated Maul, Grievous and Vader...yet twety seconds with Dooku and he's finished.[/quote]


He was facing someone who wasn't arrogant in battle. Obi-wan lost his duel to Maul, but won due to the latter's arrogance. The next time they fight, Obi-wan gets his ass handed to him again. Grievous is not a Sith. Vader made a mistake that won him the fight. Anakin is not a fencer like Dooku. He only won against Dooku because he was stronger than him and beat him down.