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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga OT Fans' Reactions to the PT

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by march162015, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Han came back to help Luke in ANH and went out to find him in ESB.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    True, and Anakin did that for Obi-wan and his mother. So both Anakin and Han had good points, but also bad ones.
     
  3. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    You say "Han still hadn't changed"...which entirely misses the point of his actions......how they (within the stort) establish change. He was going off with the reward..but he came back. He couldn't walk away. He is no longer simply looking after himself. Then...in the next movie, Han has stayed on with the rebellion. Yes he is still abrasive..but his outlook has altered. That's how character development works. He doesn't, overnight, become an entirely different character..he's kind of the same..but different. Leia doesn't run off at the end of ANH and marry Han..there is more change in Han, and in their relationship which makes sense of and expresses their love for each other....

    ....I'm not sure what your expectation of change is? You seem to demand that Han become an entirely different character....and that that is the nature of character development..or..what?

    Uh...they're not the movies. Movies work by the story they actually tell..on screen. They may give an insight into what the creator was thinking (or at least, at times, what he thinks he was thinking at the time, many years after the fact)..but they can say nothing about whether the movies actually conveyed what is suggested they were intended to. The movies tell the story...it is how the movies tell the story that we are discussing. When people go to see a movie...they shouldn't need explanatory notes by the movie-maker to understand the movie.

    You appear to be missing the point. It's not about whether I like the answers..either your "clear" version of events or some other's "clear" version of events it is that ...the fact that two very different answers are described as being "clearly" what the story is reveals the point I was making; the story , whatever it is that occurred, isn't told in the movies. Whatever story you argue..and think is clear ...is invented by you. It is whatever you like it to be. I'm simply saying that...given the nature of the story that the movies are supposed to be telling (How this young boy from TPM ends up being Vader)....that's a pretty serious omission. The movies don't actually bother to tell the story that they're supposed to tell. You are given character 'development' (change) without any narrative window to address that change. The story occurs off-screen, between the movies, and we're left to imagine what it was that might have lead to that change.

    The "fact is"? Again...you miss the point (again), entirely. None of this is addressed in the movies. You have to invent these events. That isn't the story, because that isn't addressed in any way by the movies. Again one is left to imagine how that could have come about.

    Fought bravely on Geonosis? He rushed in like an idiot and undermined the advantage of numbers that he and Obi-Wan had over Dooku. He was impetuous and foolish. And the idea that "He obeyed orders on most of those missions " refers to " and on other worlds following that"... in other words....what we aren't shown in the movies. In terms of what we are shown in the movies he has one everything wrong and whatever explanation you come up with as to how that was overcome is...based upon whatever you fill that gap with. Because these events (what leads to the change between the events of AOTC and ROTS) aren't addressed by the movies. They all occur off-screen, between the movies.

    Let me just remind you of your original argument;

    "Yet in ROTJ, Luke is said to be ready to be a Jedi now."

    In the context this was written... I was arguing that Anakin, despite his failings and inability to 'get'the most basic premise of being a Jedi throughout AOTC begins ROTS a Jedi knight...and my suggestion that how that turnaround had come about is ...a puzzle. So, your original argument seemed to imply that Luke was..similarly "ready" to be a Jedi. But he is told specifically that he is not yet a Jedi..that first he must confront Vader. And then...we are shown his confrontation with Vader, and that is when he becomes a Jedi. So...the ideas that their situations between one movie and the next are 'the same' (which was what your argument was) is very, very wide of the mark. We are shown how Luke overcomes his previous failure to grasp (entirely) what it is to be a Jedi, and how he then becomes one. We have no idea how Anakin has come to his change in status - especially as he clearly hasn't grasped the most basic premise of what it is to do Jedi. We aren't shown how he overcomes his very obvious failure to do Jedi in AOTC (and Luke didn't go on a rage-induced spree of mass murder). Whatever explanation we might have for how this has come about is.....whatever we "like" it to be.

    And...when is....any of this told in the movies.....?
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    My point is that Anakin and Han both had good within them, despite doing some bad things. That is why both women fall in love with them.

    They don't need it, but it doesn't hurt to have. None the less, AOTC establishes that Palpatine has been influencing Anakin. If you cannot figure that out, that's on you.

    And character development still happens off screen in the OT. I don't know why this is an issue.

    And this is a problem how?

    Losing a Lightsaber duel is nothing. Anakin still did his part well on Geonosis despite the numbers game because even when they work together, Dooku still owns them both as we see later on. Which was an intentional decision on Lucas's part because he was choosing to leave that story to the "Clone Wars" multimedia project. He was never going to address it in the films.

    The point is that the both men reached a point in time, where they were ready to advance. All Luke did was train for about a year, succeed in a mission to rescue Han and then is told that he is ready to become a Jedi by facing Vader. Anakin becomes a Knight because he trained harder, succeeded in a few missions and is told that he is ready by the Council. Seeing that moment wasn't important to his story.

    When Qui-gon says that being a Jedi is a hard life and when we see that even a fully trained Jedi Master can succumb to the dark side.
     
  5. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    To be honest, I didn't understand OT fans' intensely emotion reactions against the prequels from age thirteen to nineteen. I thought it was mostly silly and I accepted the prequels almost as much as the OT. But as I got older in my twenties, I grew a bit more cynical and developed more critical thinking skills. I came to really dislike AOTC and I almost disliked TPM, but I never went that far. I now have mixed feelings overall for ROTS and the other two, as I've expressed elsewhere in this site. However, I can't seem to ever delve into pure prequel- or Lucas-bashing. Not all the ideas are bad, and it's oversimplification to go all negative on everything. That's just me.
     
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  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Indeed, and justifiably so.

    I'm not sure when "Padme loves Anakin" became a response to "Why did Padme become a wuss?"

    Strong women do fall in love, enter into monogamous relationships up to and including marriage--and still remain strong, confident, secure women.

    The character demolition of Padme would not bother me nearly so much if she had been portrayed that way from the beginning, as opposed to someone I really respected in TPM. It would have been easier to hate her from the outset.

    My other contribution to the discussion is that I want that Anakin/Obi-Wan locker room scene.

    "Obi-Wan. Kenobi. I am dangerous."

    "You can be my wing-man any time."
     
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  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    That's what I was getting at. In this case, it was a bad decision for the both of them. I believe that if it had been any other person, Padme wouldn't have become like she did in ROTS. But she did fall in love with Anakin and she wound up losing herself in the process.
     
  8. Andy Wylde

    Andy Wylde Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2014
    UH-OH! What have I started with the whole Jedi temple locker room shenanigans? [face_dunno]
     
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  9. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004

    We don't need much encouragement...
     
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  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011

    So...Padme was never a strong woman, we were just deceived into believing that she was in TPM and part of AOTC?

    That might make the portrayal worse, because it's dishonest.
     
  11. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I think she's always a strong woman being emotionally devastated by tragedy doesn't equal weakness.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Sure. By all means let's pretend "emotionally devastated by a tragedy" is what happened. Let's continue to pretend that the tragedy was unpreventable and that she had no other options.

    In an alternative universe when that is the case, I'll believe that she was strong.

    Or, in an alternative universe when she gets 100 percent ****ing pissed off as she should have been with such behavior from someone she loved and trusted, and takes action to take care of herself and her children, I'll believe she was strong.

    Until then, no dice. There is no "grey area" for me regarding displays of "strength" in the situation she was in.
     
  13. Andy Wylde

    Andy Wylde Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2014
    I could see the Jedi locker room scene already, when Anakin receives detention for taping Obi Wans buns together!
     
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  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Anakin: "The piece of masking tape is long and distinguished, just like my...oh...never mind."

    Obi-Wan: "The plaque for the braggarts is in the archives right next to Dooku's statue."
     
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  15. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Lol. Who moderates this forum?!
     
  16. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005



    Indeed. It's a very sad scene -- the fading sun, the secrecy of it, Padme's concerned expression (on her wedding day).

    And the symbolically potent moment where Padme takes Anakin's robotic hand.

    Why are people so quick to take offence here?

    Not to mention that critical, earlier exchange in the film, where Padme distances herself from Anakin's advances and cautions him that they'd "be living a lie", forcing Anakin to concede that "it would destroy us."

    Do people just not notice these things? Do they not care?

    This wedding was ominous. This union would end in tragedy. They both knew there were doing something forbidden and not being open about it.

    "Let's cross this line, but keep it to ourselves."

    And Padme's weakness paradoxically derives from her strength. She's established in TPM as someone who battles an inner sadness, whilst fighting tyranny and takeover on the outside. A bit of an engima. A fighter, yet someone who takes things to heart and worries about the people she feels herself to be the carer and nurturer of.

    It's also there in AOTC. Especially in the deleted scene where it's revealed that she failed to help a race/clan of people adapt and thrive. In response to an inquiry about their fate by Anakin, she curtly remarks, "They died."

    Part of Padme's problem is that (somewhat like Anakin) she struggles with the idea of loss brought about by her own actions (or perceived as such). So it might call for a bit of imagination, but when Anakin goes to the Dark Side, Palpatine ushers in the Galactic Empire, and other senators clap its birth, she is pretty crushed. The whole political body seems to have turned diseased and insane, and her husband seems to have had his own descent into madness. And Padme -- always that bit self-righteous -- now blames herself. She watches Rome burn and believes it was her fault.

    Contrast this with Anakin, who is defiant in the face of murder and death. B-b-b-b-b-ut... I did this for you! Don't you turn against me! Oh, no. Lost arms and legs. Bad hair day. Ah, well. Nice shiny suit. Hey, where do the batteries go? Can I still play Wii Fit in this thing? And can anyone get me some deodorant?

    Seriously, though...

    Theirs are tragic paths entwined.

    And queens on Naboo have a short lifespan. Politically/symbolically. Ascension motifs, playing with, the maker of these movies is.

    Cute story. If you dig the symbols, yo.
     
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  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    No, it isn't. That's not what I'm saying. She was a strong woman. Then along the way, she lost the fire that she had after marrying Anakin. It didn't happen over night, but was a slow and gradual burn.

    That's why I like the album version of the end credits which ends with a reprise of "Anakin's Theme", then "Across The Stars" and then ends with a bit of "The Imperial March". It foreshadows the tragedy that will happen in ROTS.
     
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  18. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Oh, I love that version, too. I'm sorry they never used it.
     
  19. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2015
    I saw the (original) original trilogy first even though I wasn't born in the original era. I tend to have more of a soft spot for the prequels because of all the bashing they receive and the fact that I actually really enjoy them, even AOTC.

    I'm not sure I like one trilogy over the other. Whenever I think of putting the OT over the PT, I always think of how much more I like the settings and planets and time period of the prequels more. When I put the PT over the OT, I think of the characters of Luke, Han, and Leia, the threatening feel of the Empire, and the victory and tone of ROTJ.

    I just like the saga as a whole.
     
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  20. dennabfokcos

    dennabfokcos Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2015
    "The adventures of Luke, Han, and Leia" have become "The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker," and many fans can't stomach this.[/quote]


    so true
     
  21. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    For some it simply isn't how they see things and that's fine. Me, I don't like Anakin. I much prefer Luke. Anakin is a common thread in the films as yet but to me he isn't the be all.

    Personally, the bitter split perpetuated by a minuscule pocket of the fandom as a whole is tiresome and I hope the needless tension will ease soon. I will always prefer OOT but Dooku is likely to remain my fave film character. I don't see the point of tearing strangers down for differing.
     
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  22. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    SW to me will always be centered around Luke and company.
    The PT will be the prologue and lead up to the OT and the OT and ST will be the main story and the FT (E10-12) will be the epilogue.
    Not sorry. Just how I see it.
     
  23. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    As is your right. I personally am not an all or nothing person when it comes to SW. Great for those that are but the fact a few (not you) basically insist others MUST accept everything is old. Variety is good but each fan chooses by their own fancy and doesn't need to conform to another's demands on this topic.
     
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  24. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Pretty much everything from DOTJ to the end of the NJO with a couple of books after that in the SWEU is my personal SW story. Not sorry.
    If people want to limit their story to 1 movie or 3 so be it. But the 6 movie Saga people who mock that are still way behind the people who enjoy the EU and or NEU.
     
  25. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I'm not sorry that I prefer select EU/OOT and Tarkin either. Likewise don't care about arbitrary label lines. People can define their Saga however they like if others don't like oh well. But the jeering and mocking or 'demands' of a few can get annoying. Thankfully I just ignore it now.
     
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