Saga OT Force vs. PT Prophecy

Interestingly, in the Tarkin book it is Vader who demands from Palpatine that he be called Vader and not Anakin. Shows just how insane Vader was.

 

Not quite, no. But that was part of Luke's overall trial was understanding the lure of the dark side. His fight was more within himself than it was his father.

No, but your mother would want you to understand why he would, before just jumping out and saying it.

You do understand how duality works?

Less insanity and more in keeping with what he says to Luke...

LUKE: "I have accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father."

ANAKIN: "That name no longer has any meaning for me."

 

In Dark Times EU material (and some set after ANH), there's even scenes where Vader claims he killed Anakin (as well as lots of scenes where he claims Anakin is dead):

Darth Vader & the Ghost Prison (discussion of the prisoners):

"How many?"
"Two hundred and eight, Lord Vader. But this can't be correct ... according to these records, this man -- Anakin Skywalker -- arrested more than half of the prisoners.
"The reports are correct. Skywalker was one of the Jedi Order's most skilled generals.
"What happened to him?"
"I killed him."

Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows (someone wants revenge for Padme's death):

"You killed her, Vader. You! I know it!"
"You know nothing. You're not worthy of uttering her name."
"And you're responsible ... for the death of the Jedi ... Anakin Skywalker as well!"
"Yes. Yes, I killed Anakin Skywalker. I watched him die. He was weak, was Skywalker. In the end he could not rule himself, could not control his contemptible human emotions. Most of all, he did not understand or appreciate the true strength of the dark side. And so - he died. The galaxy is better off without him."

Rebel Force: Uprising (Vader is dueling an old enemy - a former Padawan):

"Anakin is dead."
"So you've told me before. You killed him. Just like you killed Obi-Wan. And Padme. Erase all reminders of who you used to be, isn't that the plan? Any reminders of what you've done and how much it hurts?"
"You know nothing about pain. But it will be my pleasure to teach you."

"Your technique has gotten lazy."
"And you've gotten complacent. You think no-one can match you, right? Same old Anakin."
"Anakin is dead!"

"You move well for a fat old man."
"No older than you, Anakin."
"There is no Anakin."
"And yet here he is in front of me. The same cocky, deceitful, defiant, scared little boy you always were. You killed Obi-Wan because he saw the fear behind the mask. You killed Padme because she saw the monster. You can kill me, if you want. But you will never kill Anakin. I suspect someday, he'll kill you."
"Someday, perhaps. But unfortunately for you, that day is not today."


Star Wars Volume 4: A Shattered Hope (Obi-Wan's Force Ghost is talking to Vader):

"It will all be for naught, Darth ... you will never truly satisfy your master, Palpatine."
"Obi-Wan. I killed you."
"Do not be so sure. The path of the Jedi warns against thinking in absolutes. You may have cut my body down, but remember what I told you..."
""I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.""
"That frightens you, doesn't it?"
"I am ten times the Jedi you were, Obi-Wan. Your parlour tricks do not impress me."
"I do not come to you unbidden. You feelings betray you ... Anakin."
"Do not say that name! Skywalker is dead!"

 

Stating that he killed Anakin absolves Vader of any guilt for the death of Padme and his child. Its a fictitious line in the sand, a line that is rubbed out in ROTJ.

 

Yoda basically said as much.

 

The thing people miss is that Obi-Wan genuinely believes in what he's saying. He thinks of Anakin and Darth Vader as two separate people. That's how Ewan McGregor says he played the ending scene on Mustafar: Obi-Wan looks at Anakin writhing in agony as he burns to death on the lava bank, and what he sees is Darth Vader murdering his best friend.

 

By that time there was no Anakin, he was already "dead" when Padme was force-choked.

 

Not only that but it also makes it easier to deny that he was once a Jedi, fighting for the "enemy".

It's funny how similar Vader and Obi-Wan are in that regard. They both wish to deny the truth, because they both can't cope with the fact that Vader was once Anakin Skywalker.

That right there is complete lunacy. I love it!

 

It's a metaphor - Obi-Wan doesn't actually think they are two separate people he uses it as a coping mechanism...

 

Part of it is a coping mechanism, but it is how the Jedi and Sith are. A dual identity is two identities that a person has. Some take it to a more extreme degree than others. Bruce Wayne claims that Batman is his true face and that Bruce Wayne is a mask. Or how Superman used to refer to Clark Kent as a separate person even to himself. And that Clark Kent is jealous of Superman, while Superman is envious of Clark Kent.

 

They tried, but as of ROTS they were not provided with enough leads to reach the right conclusions. Hence Anakin and Obi-Wan's investigation upon finding Syfo-Dios' ship.

 

We know....

 

So he doesn't genuinely believe it does he...

 

Neither does Vader because he knows who Luke is speaking of when he hears the name Anakin Skywalker.

They're both in denial they are.

 

He genuinely believes in what he's figuratively saying.

 

Exactly. That's what dual identities entail. Listen again to what Obi-wan said.

BEN: "You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I have told you was true... from a certain point of view."

 

True from a certain point of view. A gratuitous, bare faced, manipulative lie from another. Take your pick I guess.

 

Gratuitous? I don't think so. There are times when telling the truth leads to a greater injustice in the long run, and Ben & Yoda had every reason to suspect that was one of them.

 

So he believes the metaphor is true? Of course he does... I didn't think that is what you were saying...

 

Not telling him the whole truth at that point I can see some justification for, or at least reasoning behind. Telling THAT lie I consider to be gratuitous. Regardless of the merit of the dishonesty itself, though, it's the subsequent attempt to deny that there was in fact any dishonesty that makes my stomach turn a bit.

 

Nobody is perfect?

 

Obi-Wan doesn't think the metaphor is any less true than the literal reality.

 

Telling a lie never leads to justice. The two dont go together.

Plus there is a big difference between bluntly telling the truth and being tactful. If tact is used a lie need never be told.

 

Obi-Wan isn't suffering from a mental illness. He knows full well the reality.