Saga OT Force vs. PT Prophecy

Quoted for pithiness.

 

Are you assuming that all women lose their virginity before the age of 30? Wow! How arrogant!

I don't understand this comment. The Force has always been portrayed as power.

 

All she says is that Anakin has no father, not that she was a virgin.

Plenty of room for the possibility of her having had a lover, before being captured as a young adult and sold into slavery. Or having had an affair with another slave.

And, as said:

some people wait longer.

 

I know a woman who just celebrated her 30th birthday, and she's never been on a single date. I've asked her why, and she says its because she doesn't want to go through the heartbreak others have from depending completely on themselves in romantic matters.

 

Insulting?! Wow...

As many drafts and behind the scenes info prove, the concept did exist back then. Film-wise, they were introduced in the PT.

It's a complete arc, not a complete story (thus the titles Episode IV, V and VI instead of I, II and III). The story begins in chapter one and ends in chapter six (well, at least for now). You could argue that Star Wars was a complete story, until TESB was released.

Sigh... I'm getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over again, and this will be the last time I'll do it with you (specially since other people understood my argument from the get go).

The OP argues that the way the Force is portrayed in the PT contradicts what was seen in the OT.

I argue that it doesn't. Midi-chlorians don't contradict what was established in the OT. The fact that there is a biological side that allows one to communicate with the Force doesn't deny what we learned in the OT. Faith doesn't cease to be necessary because of that.

And where have I done that? Just because you don't understand them, doesn't mean I back away from them.

Ignoring the context much? It's not indeed a matter of opinion or open for debate that the complete story begins in I and ends in VI, or that the OT is the complete story when it's stated right at the beginning of the movies that they merely are chapters IV, V and VI of said story.

Yeah, and that's why I won't feed your attempt to railroad the discussion anymore.

Have a nice day.

 

...and Schmi was a slave. She is not in a position to choose.

 

True. While the movies don't say exactly how long she was a slave- other sources, like the Databank, now I look it up on Wookieepedia, apparently say she was a slave from 6 years old onward.

 

I'm going to take the green house - white house analogy a little further here. As you say, Lucas is selling his product. So Lucas the Housing Developer shows his plans, which are a bit sketchy but..there's something in there that catches the eye. The building starts and the outline of the house/plot you are interested in starts to gain form. It strikes you as beautiful. Nothing is perfect but this looks just like what you are looking for - you put a deposit down. Lucas the housing developer then brings in a couple of architects to work with him and over the next couple of months a larger building with a few structural changes is completed. You see it...its not quite what you thought but...overall the changes - though they have foibles - are on the whole well integrated and enhance the building. You complete and move in. You are happy with the surroundings.

A few years pass and Lucas the Housing Developer returns and says he is going to complete his development now....this was always an interim. You grumble a bit but he says 'you remember when I discussed these plans with you..you know its going to basically be that' You think back and, the idea seems good. From what you remember of Lucas' ideas something magnificent might come of it.

You go back and take a look at the work and....things seem to have changed a great deal, and when you finally get to move back in, many of the rooms you got used to before were altered in some way that you couldn't initially put your finger on. The structure seems incongruous compared to what you had known and the whole house seems less...comfortable. Some new rooms and elements are actually quite...beautiful but...overall the house, to you, now looks and feels uglier, less the house that it was..something altogether different from what you originally moved into.

 

I hope you don't mind if I build on your housing analogy a bit.

I think the concept of selling the house is a bit of a flawed analogy. A person who buys a house can make whatever alterations they want to that house and can also, in turn, sell it themselves. Star Wars fans have never had this level of control over the films. We may watch and enjoy the films -- spending our money on them -- but we have no legal rights to them or creative input. The only way we contribute is by "voting with our wallets." Because of this, I suggest that the idea of Lucas owning an apartment complex, as a landlord, is a better analogy. Here, Lucas again has control over the property, but other people use it, enjoy it, and pay him in order to continue to do so.

Here, you might say that Lucas' apartments proved extremely popular, much more so than he thought they would be (ANH) which allows him to expand and build more popular apartment complexes (ESB and ROTJ). Then, after a few years, Lucas does some renovations and also makes some changes. Some of the tenants don't like these, though. At this point, they have a choice -- they can either accept the changes and continue to pay Lucas, or they can leave. Regardless, though, as long as his structures are popular, Lucas is going to do what he wants, given that he is the property owner. If the tenants don't like it, well, they are free to go once the lease is up.

Then, he makes a major expansion (the PT). Some of his long-time tenants don't like them and think they're an eyesore. They complain, but since Lucas isn't doing anything against the law, again, their choice is either to stay and keep paying him or pack up and leave. The new buildings -- while not as popular as his original ones were -- still bring in new people and lots of money. They definitely turn strong profits and Lucas is happy with them; he's not going to change them just because some of his tenants are dissatisfied and he quite likes the new people that have been brought in by them. He makes changes to all of his buildings (some minor, some larger) and although not everyone is happy about this, it's his choice. The only thing really stopping him would be if he couldn't fill the apartments, but that hasn't become an issue at all.

Then, as he gets ready to retire, he sells his apartment buildings to a large firm (who sometimes consults him about it).

See, Lucas can do whatever he wants in this scenario. As long as he's not breaking the law (and he isn't) and his property remains profitable (which it most definitely is, no matter how much one might dislike the prequels, it would be foolish to say they weren't financially sound), there's no reason Lucas has to change anything about the way he conducts business. We're all basically tenants -- we live and play (paying of course) in the world that Lucas, and now Disney, owns. We do have some creativity, of course, such as in how we decorate our "rooms" -- but it is nothing permanent or official and remains very personal.

 

Possibly Lucas did so because it's a trope - it crops up a few times in mythology as well as religion. He wanted to evoke people's thoughts of it.

 

Yes, there is a difference. The PT is meant to be a prequel to the OT, so certain things that the OT established are NEEDED in the PT. Things like Anakin Skywalker being in it, Obi-Wan Kenobi, the mother of Luke and Leia, the Emperor, Anakin falling to the Dark Side etc.
These are things that go beyond Lucas own wants and desires for the story. They are in some way REQUIRED by the story that the PT is meant to connect with.
Same thing with RotJ, in that film is was NEEDED to deal with Vader being Luke's father or not. If Lucas had ignored it then the film wouldn't have worked.

So anything not "needed" in view of the OT are simply a result of what Lucas wanted to do with the story and how he wanted to tell it. And that is totally within his right as storyteller. If he wants Palpatine to be Anakin grandfather, then then go ahead. If he wants Yoda as the last of his race, then fine.

So if Lucas wants to put a prophecy in the PT then that perfectly fine since he is the one telling this story. But it isn't needed beyond what Lucas wants or feels is necessary in the story.
He choose to include it, nothing more, nothing less.

They CAN be asked with ALL films. Whether or not they bother me depends on several things.
How big a problem this causes, how often such problems come up and how good the rest of the film is. To give an example. In the first Matrix film, the basic idea of using humans as batteries is grossly impractical from a basic science perspective. It would be horribly ineffective and the machines would be better off using potato-batteries. But the rest of the film is quite good so it doesn't weaken the film to me. But if someone else brings it up I won't pretend the problem doesn't exist or say "Shut up and stop asking difficult questions!" Which is kind of what you are doing here.

As I said above, I don't doubt that Lucas wanted it in there and felt that it added to the story he wanted to tell. But it wasn't needed beyond that.

Pretty much all that you mention here could be achieved without a prophecy.
If Anakin is just a very gifted Jedi that has lots of power. But he has a problem of letting go of things and wants power to stop loosing things he cares about. After the death of his mother he becomes obsessed with finding this power and when Palpatine dangles such power in front of him, he leaps at the chance. If he is worried about Padme and fears for her life and Palpatine offers a way to save her, that would give him a difficult choice, prophecy or not.
So, from what you say, Anakin didn't really have much of a burden from the prophecy until he was faced with the choice of letting Palpatine live because he offered to save Padme. Which is a choice that would have been as difficult even without the prophecy. So the prophecy wasn't very necessary then.

Luke has a much greater burden and for much longer. He knows he is trained as one of the last of the Jedi. He still has Vader to deal with and the emperor, both who are very powerful.
He has his friends and the rebels to help him but little else and he is a wanted outlaw.
In that regard Anakin had it much easier.

Hardly, Vader and Palpatine are in command of the Empire and have all it's power to draw upon. So they have much more power than just themselves. Could Luke just go to Coruscant and fight his way into the palace and confront the emperor by himself? Very unlikely.
And Luke still wants to put an end to the Empire and fight with the rebels, he just has other things on his mind as well. So a bigger burden. And after ESB he has to deal with what Vader said. Is it true or not and if true, why did Yoda and Obi-Wan lie to him. So he could feel betrayed, confused and alone.

Two things;
a) That Palpatine is not able to sense the good in Luke in NOT established or hinted at anywhere in the OT.
b) The OT directly contradicts you. Palpatine "His compassion for you will be his undoing."
So Palpatine is able to sense/feel Luke's compassion for his father so he IS able to sense some good in Luke. Also he was able to sense Luke in ESB, as did Vader. But in RotJ only Vader sensed Luke but not Palaptine. So both Dark Side users were not affected so no "The light side of the Force has clouded their vision." Also Palpatine was able to sense Luke from a great distance. None of the Jedi were able to sense Sidious, Maul or that Dooku had turned. Yoda sensed the Dark side in Dooku only when he was very close to him. In ANH, Vader doesn't sense Obi-Wan when he is over Tatooine, only when Obi-Wan is quite close by. So yes, proximity DOES seem to be factor sometimes.

Since I was talking about Palpatine sensing the good in Vader and not Luke's presence, that quote isn't relevant.

So even with the Dark Side no longer "clouding" them, Obi-Wan and Yoda are still blind? So why did the PT make such an issue of the dark side crippling the Jedi when they were already crippled all on their own?

If this is the case then Anakin needs to do more than just kill Palpatine, yes? Just killing Palpatine won't shake the Jedi out of their complacency or end the corruption in the senate.
Sounds like the senate and the jedi both had to be eradicated and only Palpatine be left and then Anakin can balance the Force by killing him. So could Anakin have balanced the Force in the PT?

I think you are overlooking a rather important aspect here, we are talking about small children/infants here.
Infants don't go to Ivy League schools, small children don't get high paid jobs.
The number of tests you can do on a one year old are rather limited.
So it therefore follows that what the Jedi tested is the blood and based on that test, a child is a potential Jedi or not. Add to this, a blood test is the only remotely practical way for the Jedi to test potential candidates. How else is it supposed to work? That the Jedi go around every kindergarten in the galaxy and do long tests on every child? Remember Qui-Gon said that in the republic, Anakin would have been identified early. Sorry but the EU only followed what the PT implied, that below a certain number you can't be a Jedi.

You have changed the argument and in more ways than one. You started to use scientific terms and sais that Anakin being male was just down to nature. I countered that and you abandoned science and nature and invoke magic/god instead. But both the films and several posters here have said that Anakin was conceived by the MIDICHLORIANS, not the Force directly. The Force simply told the midis in Shmi's body to make her pregnant. The Force gave the order but the midis are the ones who actually did the job. And as many here are fond of pointing out, the Midis are NOT the Force.
The Force is still mystical but the Midis is more scientific.

So if Shmi's pregnancy was caused simply by the midis starting cell divisions on one of her eggs then Anakin would have been female. For him to be male requires something more than this. Like the midis altering the DNA in one of the eggs to make the child male. But the midis would only do this if the Force had been that specific in it's order. So not just any child, the child HAD to be male.
One wonders why. Did the Force think that a female could not do the job?
If the Force did it itself then it can do anything it wants, but then the midis are sort of not needed

So take your pick, if Anakin was created by "God" or the Force directly then what science and nature says is irrelevant but so are the midis.

Actually they are because much of the plot of the films hinges on Anakin being created by the Force to kill Palpatine. And since the Force could have killed Palpatine in many other ways, both faster and more direct. It becomes an issue. Not to you maybe but certainly to others.

We can, but as I said above, the number of holes and how big they are in combination to how good the rest of the film is also play a part. And of course personal taste is one of the biggest if not the biggest criteria to whether or not they bother someone. If the holes are not big enough to bother someone and they enjoy the rest of the film, then fine. But not being bothered about a problem isn't the same as the problem not being there.

Or more simply, the gunners on the DS knew that their own fighter were out there, and why wouldn't they. So they stopped shooting as to not risk shooting down their own people.

With that tiny amount of training? Luke might be good enough to take out Vader, he did hold his own against him pretty good. But the Emperor? Did Yoda even tell Luke about Palpatine's Force lightning? It doesn't seem so, all Yoda says is to not underestimate his powers.

No still not proof enough. Wedge says that it can't be done but that is only his opinion. Dodonna and the other obviously disagree with him. And Luke was only able to do it because he knew about the Force, had faith in it and used it directly. When Luke was shooting womp rats he obviously didn't use the Force directly. Also I don't think Luke was shooting womp rats with proton torpedoes.

First Anakin didn't know what would cause Padme to die, it could be from murder or a fatal accident.
Smhi was beaten and tortured and died from that.
Second, Anakin wanted the power to stop death, full stop. He didn't say that he only wants to stop death from old age or something like that. So this goes quite beyond causing a pregnancy.

He already knows how the Force works, invoking the midis is not required unless he needs to know how to look for future Jedi. The OT showed that Luke could be trained fine without any mention of midis. And how often was midis brought up when Anakin trained? Qui-Gon tells him about them but all that does is explain the specific details of how people are able to tap into the Force, you don't need to know about midis to use the Force.

That is still not proof, only your assumptions.
So again, direct proof please or concede the point.

[/QUOTE]

It is less simple because why would Obi-Wan start to make some sort of list of all the various Force powers at this stage? That would be a rather long list and would only be confusing for Luke.
What we see is that he starts Luke of with using the lightsaber, the weapon of a Jedi.
Luke starts by trying to block the blasts from the remote. This trains him with the weapon and trains his reflexes. The Obi-Wan puts the helmet on and now Luke has to reach out with his feelings and start to use the Force. This is sensible for a teacher, one lesson at a time.

Also, in ESB it seems that Luke hasn't used this ability before but if Obi-Wan told him about it, he might have trained to use it in the three years after ANH. But he hasn't. He does keep the lightsaber with him, so that he seems to have kept working with. If he had heard about the ability then yes he might have tried it himself. So perhaps the simplest explanation is that Luke has no alternatives and decides to use the Force and see if it works.

Buy for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I never said it wasn't a change. I've only maintained that there were ideas for it.

At least you have a bit of a legitimate reasoning and that you do it with other films says to me, at least, that it isn't a bias.

Regardless of them liking it or not, he's selling the white house. They can take it or leave it, but it is his right to paint it that way.

1. You weren't there, so you don't know for certain. No more than I know for certain either.

2. Why? There have been people who were well into their 70's and beyond that, that were virgins. Not to mention that being a slave, she doesn't exactly have a social life.

See.

That's fine. But then, so is having an absent father.

We're arguing semantics. Lucas might have felt that he needed it, even if you don't.

I'm not saying that you should shut up and not ask questions. I've simply asked because I want to know if it is only about "Star Wars" or do people actually do this to other films. I did say that there won't ever be an answer that will satisfy people, no matter how many different ways people will argue for it.

Not really. Not when it comes to the Force and how it can be affected by living things and to tell a story about fixing not only the Jedi, but the Force.

He would just surrender to the Empire like he does in ROTJ and thus allow him to be brought before Palpatine and Vader.

Anakin also had his own burdens. Such as trusting the Jedi to be on the side of the Republic and the Chancellor. Wanting to end the war so that the threat to his loved ones would end. Worrying about becoming a Jedi Knight. Worrying about his mother. He had his share of burdens in AOTC and ROTS.

At the time, no. But with the PT, yes. Especially since the Jedi couldn't sense the dark side in Palpatine until it was almost too late. As well as Anakin not sensing Obi-wan on Mustafar, which fits in with Palpatine not sensing Luke at Endor.

Palpatine felt a disturbance in the Force in TESB, but that doesn't mean that he felt Luke. Just that something was going on and because he knew about Luke, connected the dots to him. As to compassion, that doesn't mean that he sensed it as he wasn't even there. But he knows what Jedi are trained to feel towards people and especially the Sith. A Jedi does not know anger, nor hatred. As to Vader sensing Obi-wan, it isn't because of proximity because he didn't sense him on Mustafar. As to Vader sensing Luke on Hoth, if he did, he would have known he was outside the hangar, trudging along towards his X-Wing and would just simply walk on out there and nab him. He doesn't sense him until their confrontation in the carbonite chamber and only when Luke is drawing on the Force to prepare to fight him.

Except I was talking about Luke.

The dark side never stopped clouding their vision when it came to things related to the dark side and the future. The dark side of the Force was growing stronger, because the light was weakening. That doesn't mean that a Sith Lord is stronger than a Jedi Knight. Just that because the dark side is growing everywhere, due to the actions of the Sith and the Jedi's inability to adapt, they cannot sense things like the Sith can and like Luke can. This is about the end of one generation and the rise of another.

Not quite. Beyond just Palpatine, it was that the Jedi needed to start training the new generation of Jedi differently from what they had been doing. In adapting to the times, the Force would start to right itself back to balance. But because of the Jedi Purge, which hastened things along a bit, this left us with at least two Jedi and the next generation who needed to learn the ways of the Force differently. It's not that the Jedi needed to die, but they needed change.

They test the blood and based on past Jedi with similar counts, they formulate the training around them. For every Obi-wan, there's a Ki-Adi-Mundi and so on. It's more of a, "All things created equally", if you will.

Not to flame, but I had assumed you were wise enough to catch on. It would be rather obvious if it saw Anakin Skywalker, a male, then by all rights, it would come out that way if it was a specific order, in order to match what was to come.

It is only an issue if you make it one. The fact is that the job gets done, regardless of how fast and how it is done period.

Which doesn't change that Tarkin wouldn't know he was out there.

It would have to do. Luke might have known, but in throwing down his Lightsaber, he left himself vulnerable.

Wedge said that it cannot be done with a targeting computer. Dodonna saying, "it can be done" isn't relevant because that is the only way to destroy the Death Star. There is no other option. All the pilots knew it couldn't be done, but they had to try instead of just running for it. Luke was the only one who knew it could be done and that was because he had done it.

Right. Which means it had to be either a blaster since they talked about using blasters and not being able to, due to the ray shields. Using a torpedo requires a concentrated push, in order to move it in. Otherwise, Luke had to use a slingshot to hit it with a rock.

No, it doesn't. If the Force can create life, then it can stop death. There is no difference.

Luke knows that he can use the Force, but not the ins and outs of it. That was the whole point of his training and as Qui-gon told Anakin, he can understand how and why he can use the Force through the Midichlorians. So it is part of the training. The fact that Qui-gon tested for them and that Obi-wan knew what Yoda's were, as well as Qui-gon bringing it up to the Council, tells us it was part of the overall learning the ways of the Jedi Arts. Just because we didn't have an exposition about it on screen, in the OT, doesn't mean that it wasn't part of Luke's training now that we know about it.

Why would it be confusing?

Which doesn't contradict that Obi-wan would tell him what he could do with the Force and choosing to demonstrate it with a training exercise.

Luke may have tried to use it previously, but due to his inexperience in the ways of the Force, he has trouble with it. Training under Yoda grants him the ability to finally start understanding it.

 

Neither do I ... but that sure is a lot of people to not care about.

Just saying...

What is the point?

Something about the birds and the bees, right?

Except to point out that she's a virgin.

Shmi ... had ... a ... child ...*furiously jots this down*. Got it!

Right! I think...

Don't worry Anakinfan. It's all their fault, anyways! They're jealous! They're holding you back!

How come I've never found any of the ultra-defensive people I've run into amusing?

 

Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I'm not suggesting that Lucas is breaking any laws, or that he is 'evil' in some way. Merely that...there are changes and, there are people who recognise those changes and that what they initially bought into might not be the same as the end product.

Nobody is arguing the rights and wrongs of making changes, its more about trying to explain how the changes alter some pretty fundamental facets within the story, and how that affects some people's perception of it, of the changes.

But...the idea that I am somehow beholden to Lucas' whims is an odd one. I don't have to accept his alterations, and in my own personal space...I can decorate it however I please, however permanently I wish.

 

And my answer is that these types of questions can be asked about all films and I have done so with other non-SW films. For ex with ST 5, I very much questioned why Star Fleet sent Kirk, in a broken ship and inexperienced crew, to deal with a problem when they could just have Kirk take command of a ship that did work. Esp since they knew Klingons would be there and they hate Kirk and would try to kill him.

From what the OT says happened in the PT, the prophecy isn't needed. That is all.

And run the risk that those he surrenders to will kill him? Or that he will get shot down before he gets that far? Or the risk that Vader/Palpatine will simply execute him? Luke surrender to Vader because he hoped he could get Vader to come with him He didn't think that Vader would turn him over to the Emperor. If he just surrenders to some imperial officers, they could hand him to Palpatine directly and Luke doesn't want that. And even assuming Luke got that far, he is nowhere powerful enough to challenge Palpatine in a direct fight.

And NONE of those burdens had anything much to do with the prophecy, so again by your own words the prophecy is redundant.

What are you talking about here, you make no sense? Nowhere in the OT is it ever said that Palpatine can't sense the good in Luke, that is something you made up.
Then to justify it, you bring up that the Jedi can't sense the evil in Palpatine. How is that relevant?
Yoda sensed the evil in Dooku in Aotc, Anakin sensed Dooku in RotS. Vader didn't sense Obi-Wan in RotS but he did sense him in ANH. And Vader sensed Luke in RotJ and Luke sensed Vader.
So Jedi can sometimes sense dark side users or the dark side in people. Dark side users can sometimes sense jedi. So you have NO basis for this claim.

He could also feel that the Force was strong with him, that is a bit more specific than just a general disturbance.

If Palpatine knows how Jedi are supposed to act against the Sith then compassion is NOT among it.
The Jedi and the Sith are enemies and the Jedi want the Sith dead and vice versa. So based just on that, he would expect Luke to want to kill Vader. So you are wrong. Palpatine has used the Force to see what Luke would do and why, so he CAN feel the compassion in Luke.

Palpatine is also sensing conflicting emotions in Vader, hence why he asks "I wonder if your
feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader." So Palpatine is able to sense more than one emotion.
Vader is able to even read Luke's mind and pick out Leia and he is also able to sense Luke's positive feelings towards his friends.

But in ANH he didn't sense him over Tatooine but he did sense him on the DS. Why, what was the difference? Proximity. Why he didn't sense him on Mustafar could be due a lot of things, drunk on dark side power, feelings of guilt over what he has done or that he senses Padme and that feeling blinds him to the rest.

In ESB Vader sensed the disturbance in the Force, same as Palpatine. Vader was also very certain that Luke was with the rebels on Hoth. "That is the system and I am sure Skywalker is with them."
In the original version it was pretty clear that Vader sensed Luke and so did Palpatine. Now, if Vader truly had no idea that Luke Skywalker is his son or if he is just playing dumb in front of Palpatine we don't know.

To sum up, you have no basis for this claim and the films prove you wrong.
Want to argue this, Post Proof or Retract.

The implication is that the Dark Side can weaken and blind Light Side users but the reverse is not implied. So the PT film do imply that the Dark Side is stronger.

But say that Anakin accidentally had killed Palpatine at the end of TPM, would that have balanced the Force? The jedi would see no reason to change and would keep up with their rules and dogma.
The war might not have happened but the corruption would remain.

And all this is just your interpretation of what "bring balance" means. What the film say is very simple, Anakin has to kill Palpatine, as soon as he does, the Force is once again in perfect balance.

If there had been more about Anakin bringing a new way to learn the Force or that he brought a new age to the Jedi then the prophecy might have been quite interesting. But Anakin didn't do that, that was Luke. Luke was the one who could see what the old Jedi could not. He could see what the Master of the Dark Side could not. He had faith in the face of overwhelming evidence.
So in a way, Luke is also like a chosen one.

How exactly will a midi count determine what kind of training they need? Or what kind of jobs they will do? A blood test isn't a test of someones personality. And we see Yoda train a group of Jedi together and based on the films, all Jedi do mostly the same things.

Insult aside, you are once again changing your argument.
First you said:

To which I said:

To which you said:

Then my response was:

Then you totally changed the argument with this:

You started this discussion using scientific terms and nature, I showed you that this doesn't work and you changed the argument to magic/god. You also said that it was just nature that made Anakin male. Now you are suddenly arguing that that Force specifically made Anakin male.

So you keep changing the argument every time. Now your argument is that the Force looked into the future and saw what Anakin did and thus had to make sure that Anakin came to be.
Under that scenario, yes it makes sense that the Force would make sure that Anakin is male.
But that was not what you first said nor what I responded to. So don't blame me if you can't keep your own argument straight.
If the Force needs Anakin to be male then the midis have to do more than just start cell division. That was my original point, nothing more.

It becomes an issue to me because the Force has a very simple goal, Palpatine must die. Then, with the abilities the Force is shown to have, it could have dealt with him directly and spared the galaxy a lot of pain and suffering. Had the Force killed Palpatine directly then billions would not have died.

If the Force made Anakin because it looked into the future and saw what Anakin did and so it had to create him so that he would do what he did. Then the Force actions makes some sense. But it also means that all events and outcomes were all pre-determined. No one has any free will. Anakin killed Palpatine because the Force saw that he did it in the future and created him so that he would do in in the present. This to me, makes the characters more like drones and it removes the issue of choice totally.

??? Are you arguing that Tarkin knows that Vader is out there or not?
I simply said that the film doesn't make it clear whether Tarkin knows or not. The gunners stop shooting so they won't blow up their own ships but that is basic common sense.

ALL the pilots knew it couldn't be done? Proof please. Wedge thought it couldn't be done, that is ONE pilot. Dodonna and the others thought it was possible. Slim chance maybe but possible.
Also, some of the imperials on the DS analyzed the rebel attack and they thought that there was a danger. Hence why they warned Tarkin. So BOTH some rebels and imperials thought that the attack could work.

Logical fallacy, the ability to do one thing doesn't mean you always will be able to do the reverse.
Two humans together can create life but that doesn't mean that two humans can stop death.
One human can kill another but he/she can't bring that dead person back to life.

No the midis are not required to be able to use the Force. Otherwise no one in the SW galaxy was able to use the Force until they had gotten advanced microscopes and testing equipment and were able to discover the existence of the midis. Anakin in TPM was able to use the Force on some level despite never having heard of midis.
What the midis only tell you is that it explains why Force sensitivity can be passed down and why some force users are stronger than others. That is basically it.
Ex. humans eyes have cone cells and rod cells and that is how we are able to see. But humans have been able to see, read and do all sort of things with their eyes long before we knew that.
Humans have been able to think and use our brains long before we knew exactly how brain cells function. There are many examples of we humans being able to do something without knowing the exact details of how it works.

Anakin asked Qui-Gon about midis, that is why he told him. If Anakin had never asked then chances are that Qui-Gon wouldn't have brought it up.

What you are arguing here is a pretty BIG change from OT to PT. Your argument is that unless you know about midis, you can never learn how to use the Force. So if that knowledge was lost then there would be no Force users. I don't agree and I don't think the films say or imply this in any way.
Luke knew about the Force but he had to learn control, to calm his mind, to beware negative emotions like fear, anger and hate. He also had to learn to expand his mind and what was possible and not, he had to have faith and believe in the Force. Knowledge of the midis is not required in any way for this.

From the films it seems to me that the Jedi use the midis as a simple way to look for potential candidates, nothing more. They do a midi test and above a certain number, that child is a potential Jedi, below it, not. That is why the Jedi know what they are. They also know about the prophecy and it is possible that the prophecy made some sort of mention about midis since Qui-Gon brought them up.

So one last time, if you want to argue that Luke was told about midis, then post direct proof or retract.

When you teaching a child how to read, do you first list all the books in the world? Or list all alphabets in the whole world?
When you are teaching a child to swim, do you first list all the different forms of swimming?
When you are teaching someone to sail, do you list all the types of sail boats that exist?

I work as a teacher and I know that in order to avoid confusing the students I need to take it slow in the beginning and not dump everything on them at once.
So, if Obi-Wan is a sensible teacher then he would do one lesson at a time and start slow.
Knowing all the various Force powers would not help Luke in any way.

Since your argument is that Obi-Wan gave Luke a long lecture of all the various Force powers and what each thing can do, you are the one who needs to come up with some form of support as to why Obi-Wan would do this. What purpose is served by Luke getting an info dump on all the various Force powers that exist? How would this help him? Just saying that the films doesn't contradict it is not enough.

[/QUOTE]

No, I think ESB is pretty clear that Luke hasn't used that power before. He tries to reach for his lightsaber, then he calms down and he has to work quite a bit to get it to come to him.
He did manage it though and without Yoda's help. Yoda is then able to train to lift more objects, heavier objects and to also teach him to look beyond the physical, like size and weight.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

A case could be made that Luke knowing it is possible to use the Force to do telekinesis - implies that he's encountered it in some way before- either in description, or outright use.

Splinter has Luke spontaneously manifest it without knowing it- when having his head held underwater in a fight. Later, when fighting Vader, it's implied that Obi-Wan is helping him- and both Vader & Luke use it:

Splinter of the Mind's Eye
His voice held an unaccustomed hint of conviction. "I'm going to kill you, Darth Vader."
That humorless laugh again. "What a high opinion you hold of yourself, Skywalker."
"I'm ... I'm Ben Kenobi," Luke whispered in an odd way.
For just a moment Vader seemed shaken. "Ben Kenobi's dead. I killed him myself. You are simple Luke Skywalker, an ex-farmboy from Tatooine. You are no master of the Force and the equal of Ben Kenobi you will never be."
"Ben Kenobi is with me, Vader," Luke snarled, gaining confidence every second, "and the Force is with me too."
"You do have something of the Force about you, boy," Vader admitted. "A master of it you are not, however. That dooms you. Only a master could do ... this."
The Dark Lord lunged and Luke spun well clear. At the same time, Vader was staring not at Luke, but at the ground. A small fragment of the fallen ceiling rose, shot straight for Luke's head. Seeing it coming, he reacted as Kenobi had taught him ... without thinking.
A much smaller stone lifted and intersected the path of the charging rock. The two met. Though Vader's missile was by far the larger, it was deflected by Luke's rock to send it shooting past his shoulder.
Panting, he stared challengingly back at Vader. "Good, boy," the Dark Lord confessed, "very good. But my stone was the heavier. My powers are the stronger."

As a powerful Force-booster, the crystal may enable people near it to do things that would otherwise require a lot of practice and training.

 

For myself, personally, I can say that it is the introduction of such a trope that...distances me from that aspect of the PT. When Star Wars first came out I was about 10. It had only recently dawned on me that the stories we were told in morning assembly at school were...actually believed by some people to be true. I was aghast. It didn't make any sense. I prayed, however, as I had been brought up to. Did I have to buy into all this plainly untrue guff in order to be a good person? Then I saw Star Wars and, along with the sheer spectacle of it there was Obi-Wan, and later Yoda, expounding this kind of innate, unknowable energy and spirituality that made sense to me. No, I couldn't move rocks (not even a pencil...perhaps I just didn't believe enough ) but that wasn't the point - there was a "larger world" which didn't require the acceptance of doctrinal guff to explore and wonder at.

For that reason I fully endorsed Lucas' words about Star Wars having a spiritual aspect, that would alow children to engage, introduce them to, a spiritual concept of life.

It is the absence of doctrinal dogma that was one of the major strengths of the concept 'The Force' throughout the OT - the addition of such doctrinal tropes collapses it (imo).

 

The point was to make Anakin's unique among the Jedi and the Sith. Lucas wanted to go in a different direction with Anakin's origin than from Luke's, which is why he did that. He was using it as a tie in to the balance of the Force and how he would affect the outcome of the story. You can think it is stupid all you want, which is fine, but it is what it is.

I never insinuated that you're the only one with the problem. You're just its loudest opponent right now.

Because none of the other ships were available. They were either active elsewhere, or being refitted. It's the same way in the first film that the Enterprise was sent out with a defective transporter and a largely untested warp drive.

Not being said in the OT doesn't mean that it wasn't needed. Not being said as it stands now is that they're no longer relying on Anakin, but his children. Hence Yoda said that the prophecy might have been misread and that it might not have been Anakin, from their point of view.

There's great risk in everything. There was risk when Obi-wan and Yoda both went off to fight the Sith alone. There was risk when Luke surrendered that a triggerhappy Imperial didn't shoot him on sight. However, surrendering to Vader was his plan, but he knew that he would have to face Palpatine sooner or later. He had no issue with that. As to being powerful enough, Luke had the strength in the Force to do it. He just chose to throw away his only defense against Palpatine's power, because he opted to stop fighting.

They are connected as I pointed out. Anakin believed that because of who he was, that he was capable of saving everyone from harm. That because he was the Chosen One, that mean that he could protect his loved ones from any and all threats. He knew that all he had to do was find and eliminate those threats to ensure their safety. And when he failed the first time, it drove him to do what he did three years later.

It is relevant because the Jedi cannot sense the pure evil coming from Palpatine, it only stands to reason that Palpatine cannot sense the pure good in Luke.

Yoda senses it in Dooku because he openly using the dark side and thus he could sense it. Anakin's fought Dooku before and thus he can sense it. Vader senses Obi-wan in ANH, because his abilities are weakening and he is standing out now.

He doesn't say that he could feel that the Force was strong with Luke. He knows that it is strong because he is Anakin's son and he would be just as powerful as him, as Obi-wan said.

Feeling compassion doesn't mean that the Jedi won't kill a Sith Lord. It means that a Jedi cannot fight, much less kill in anger and hatred. If anything, they pity those who fell to the dark side. Obi-wan had compassion towards Maul, even though he had killed his Master. Yoda had compassion for Dooku as well. Even against Palpatine, there was compassion.

"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

The difference with Luke is that he refuses to fight his father once he knows, because he doesn't want to kill him. It is compassion, but of a different sort.

Palpatine asking doesn't mean that he could sense his feelings, but that doesn't mean that he senses the good within him. He's curious about his feelings, that is true, but mostly because he came out about something that he didn't know about and is wondering what it is he is sensing. But he is unaware of the conflict which is why Vader blindsides him. Vader sensing Luke's feelings for his friends and Leia has to do with Luke's lack of skill in this area, which his father was able to develop over time and use to protect his secrets from the Jedi. Palpatine only knew because he let his guard down, since he didn't know he was a Sith.

If it was proximity, then by your assertion, Palpatine wouldn't sense Luke on Dagobah from Coruscant. It seems to be a leftover product of earlier on where once Obi-wan decides to go off to Alderaan, that his presence in the Force was detected by the Sith. They couldn't feel it before, but could now.

The reverse is implied with Luke's arrival at Endor and Palpatine not sensing it. The dark side is only stronger in that it is everywhere in the PT due to the Force being out of balance. The Force is starting to move back because of the Alliance and Vader's conflicted feelings.

Right, but the balance goes out because of what happens during the rise of the Sith in the PT era.

"If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of the Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that the Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. "

--George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

What happened there was a consequence of Anakin's actions, which had an unforeseen result. Change could have come with Anakin being brought before the Council when he was nine, but it didn't happen. It took the defeat of the Jedi to prompt a change on Yoda's part.

The personality part comes in later with the one on one training with a Knight or a Master. Note that Qui-gon says that Obi-wan is capable of taking and passing the trials, but points out his weakness which is that he is headstrong. The type of training will be compared to those who came before them, based on their connection to the Force found in the tests. The Younglings were most likely of a class that were along the lines of Ki-Adi-Mundi and Plo Koon. Capable Jedi who could be efficient in the field.

First, saying that I you were wiser wasn't intended as a flame. I figured you could connect the dots about why Anakin came out as a male.

Second, I didn't change my argument. We're dealing with a mystical power manipulating a biological component in one's DNA to create a child. Pointing out that Christ was a male and not a female isn't a change in argument. It is pointing out a specific example of something going against normal biology. We don't know and it isn't important if there was a specific command to do it this way or not.

But choice isn't removed. Anakin could have killed Palpatine in ROTS and didn't, because he didn't want to sacrifice Padme. Hence he runs from his destiny. He chooses to save Luke in ROTJ, because he loves his son more than he does power and is fueled by compassion towards him, rather than selfishness as before. As a result, he fulfills his destiny. Just as Luke was trying to run from his destiny by refusing to go confront Vader, until he finds that he has to do it in order to save him.

The fact that all of the pilots react the same way after Dodonna tells them how to destroy the Death Star. The reaction is disbelief. You can see it when they all start talking in disbelief. You see the one pilot behind Leia uncross his arms and has a look of, "Seriously?" It even says so in the script.

DODONNA: The approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The
target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station.

A murmur of disbelief runs through the room.

The officer believed that there was a problem, but he didn't know exactly how it could be achieved. There was still no guarantee that it would work without a Jedi. That's why it came down to Luke, because it was his destiny to destroy the Death Star.

According to Palpatine, it could be done and Anakin believed him.

Uh, yeah they are. Qui-gon says it in the film and Lucas says it in the commentary and interviews.

"We also get into this thing of what are Midichlorians, how they work which advances a little bit of the story of the Force, and how does the Force work, how we come to know the Force which is part of Anakin’s training in learning to become a Jedi. And take the idea of the Force one step further. The Midchlorians are kind of a side issue. Not in a sort of spiritual, metaphysical part of the Force, but the more practical, biological, physical part of the Force, or how we come to know the Force, which has to do really with the genetics of why some people have more in tune to the Force than others."

--George Lucas, Star Wars-The Phantom Menace: The Annotated Screenplays, 1999.

"It was a virgin birth in an ecosystem of symbiotic relationships. It means that between the Force, which is sort of a life force, and reality, the connectors between these two things are what we call Midichlorians. They're kind of based on mitochondria, which are a completely different animal, that live inside every single cell and allow it to live, allow it to reproduce, allow life to exist. They also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force."

--George Lucas, Feburary 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

Once upon a time, someone in the galaxy discovered his/her connection to the Force and passed down this knowledge throughout the ages, eventually giving birth to the Jedi Order. This next part is a bit speculative, but not by much. At some point in time, someone in the Jedi Order who had an understanding of biology, began looking for the common link among all the Jedi and discovered the Midichlorians were the common factor. Those with a greater concentration had a stronger connection to the Force. Once this was accepted by the Council, it became part of the studies. The Jedi who became the first Sith knew of this and thus it played into their training as well, leading to Darth Plagueis who wanted to see if he could create life and cheat death.

As to how they recruited, I'd wager that the Order was mostly made up of families descended from the first Jedi. Once the Midichlorians were discovered, the Order expanded outwards and by the time attachments became forbidden, the Jedi Order was made up of outside recruits.

If someone asks a question about what can and cannot be done, then you would explain what it can do. Which was my point. If Luke asked what could you do as a Jedi, then Obi-wan would respond with the things that he had done in his life. Not just one thing.

He has to work at it because he's not calm and focused. I'm not sure what the commentary says, but there's no reason to believe that Luke didn't try to practice at it and was not having very good success at it. By the time he lifts the rocks and Artoo, he's been at it for a while.

 

EDIT, we have gotten quite off-topic here so I suggest we drop this discussion as it seems to go nowhere.

Wrong, they had other ships available, one of them was even on earth, along with the Enterprise.
The ONLY reason Kirk is sent is that they say that they have no experienced commanders.
Which is a stupid reason as a) Kirk could just transfer to a ship that actually works and b) it doesn't take very much experience to fly in and beam up three people.

No the only things that are needed are things that the OT established happened in the PT.
Everything else is down what Lucas wants in the story.

Except that Anakin never mentions his status as chosen one as the reason why he wants this power.
It could simply be hubris, that he has a lot of power but wants more. So this exact situation can be achieved without a prophecy.

And again with the logical fallacies. Simply because group A can't do one thing, doesn't mean that group B can't do the reverse. In any event the films prove you wrong. Jedi are sometimes able to sense Sith and Sith are sometimes able to sense Jedi. No totally clear pattern is shown but what IS clear is that both sides CAN sense the other but they don't always do so.
Also, Mace says that the Dark Side surrounds the chancellor so it seems he can sense something.

So Yoda IS able to sense evil in Dooku then that means your argument is disproven.
So that means it is perfectly possible for Palpatine to sense the good in Luke if he is using the lightside in front of him. Which he does. He also uses the Dark side from time to time.
Vader is able to sense Obi-Wan because he stands out because his weaker abilities??
Where are you getting all this from? Why would a weak Obi-Wan stand out more than a strong one?

He directly says "The Force is strong with him." That is evidence enough. Also in RotJ, Palpatine makes a further comment, "He has grown strong, only together.." So AGAIN Palpatine is able to sense something about Luke. Thirdly, Palpatine was surprised that Luke had been so close and he didn't sense him. That shows that Palpatine expected to be able to sense him. So this again disproves your made up rule that Jedi can't sense Sith and vice versa.

Obi-Wan had compassion for Maul? What movie did you watch? Obi-Wan got plenty pissed off when Maul struck down Qui-Gon and fought Maul with some anger. He managed to calm himself down and kill Maul but there is ZERO evidence that he felt any compassion for Maul. Obi-Wan in the OT has no compassion for Vader, and this is his former friend.
That a Jedi won't kill in anger and hate doesn't not mean that they feel any compassion for the Sith.

And again the films prove you wrong, Luke wants to turn his father from the dark side, he believes he can be saved. Obi-Wan does not believe this is possible and wants Luke to kill him. And this is something that Palpatine can sense as evidence by his line; "Surely by now you know that your father can never be turned from the Dark Side." Which is clear evidence that Palaptine can sense Luke's desire to save his father. Not just that he won't kill in hate but that he wants to SAVE his father. THAT compassion. Which clearly proves that Palpatine can sense good in Luke.

It is an indication that Palpatine senses something from Vader. Yes he doesn't sense the good in Vader but neither does Yoda or Obi-Wan, which I said several posts ago.
And you are once again changing the argument, now Vader sensing things from Luke has to do with Luke's lack of skill in shielding himself. By that logic Palpatine would have ZERO problem with sensing things from Luke as well, like the good in him.

My point is that proximity sometimes is a factor and as I said above, there is no clear pattern when it comes to Force users sensing each other. What the films clearly show is that Vader doesn't sense Obi-Wan over Tatooine but does when they are much closer on the DS. In RotJ Vader was in closer proximity to Luke than Palpatine and so that could be why he sensed him and Palpatine did not.
Or simply that Palpatine's powers had weakened or he had grown overconfident.

No the reverse isn't implied as Vader, a dark side uses IS able to sense Luke. In the PT, ALL Jedi were weakened, your example shows ONE Sith being weakened but the other is not. So not evidence.

Why exactly would Anakin being brought before the council earlier make any difference what so ever? Then he would probably not be trained by Obi-Wan and he might not had his strong attachment to his mother. So then the risk of him turning might be reduced. But why would any of that cause a change in the Jedi's rules and dogma?

I was responding to your posts and questioning your assertion that Anakin being male was just due to nature and the only things the midis did was to start cell division in one of Shmi's eggs.
I was aware that some had suggested that the Force looked into the future and saw Anakin and thus created him. BUT that wasn't what you were arguing with me about, so again don't blame me if you can't keep track of your own argument. You directly stated that Anakin being male was just due to nature and nothing else.

Did you or did you not write this?

Also, that the Force foresaw Anakin and thus made him is one POSSIBLE theory. We don't know that this is why the Force created Anakin.

Yes you did change your argument several times, first you said that all the midis did was to start cell division and Anakin becoming male was just nature/chance. I explained why biology and genetics don't work like that and you switched over to magic/god. I then pointed out that the Force didn't create Anakin directly, the midis did. And the mids are NOT the Force as is so often said here.

My overall point was that the midis can't JUST have started cell division as then Anakin would have been female. You kept arguing against me so what is your argument here?
Did the midis JUST start cell division or was there more that happened?

The choice IS removed. IF the Force saw Anakin kill Palpatine in RotJ then Anakin CAN'T kill Palpatine any earlier than this. IF the Force can see the future with total certainty and everything it sees WILL happen exactly as it foresaw it. Then each and everything that happens has been totally foreseen and the characters are just playing out their parts with no opportunity to do otherwise.

And again Dodonna and the others that made the plan thought it could work. That is evidence enough that it wasn't totally impossible. Hard to be sure, which is what the pilots react to.

A guarantee is quite a bit different from something being possible. The imperial officer was able to analyze the attack and conclude that there was a danger. That is clearly established in the film.
So he could see what the rebels were planning and that it MIGHT work.

And once again you are changing your argument. First it was "If can do one thing then you can do the reverse." Which as I said before is a logical fallacy.
Now it is simply Palpatine says it can be done and Anakin believes him. Which has nothing all to do with Anakins own birth or the prophecy. All this shows is that Anakin is gullible.

No they are not. What Qui-Gon says and what Lucas spoke about is just an explanation of the details how the Force connection works and how Force sensitivity is passed on and how it can be measured.
It says nothing at all about knowledge of the midis is required to be able to use the Force.

And this is what I meant, people were able to use the Force and train to become Jedi BEFORE they knew anything about the Midis. Thus knowing about midis is NOT required to be able to learn how to use the Force. So your argument that each Jedi MUST be told about midis otherwise they won't be able to train how to use the Force is wrong.

So once again, if your claim is that Luke was told about the midis, the post direct, on-screen proof of this. You make the claim, you back it up.

[/QUOTE]

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The Excelsior wasn't there, technically. That was recycled footage from the fourth film that was tossed in to save money. It was already out in the field under Captain Styles, trying to prove that the transwarp drive worked. And as the film notes, the transporters weren't fully functional on the Enterprise A.

Just because he doesn't mention it, doesn't mean anything. He just wants to save everyone because he believes that he can and it is because of his destiny.

It isn't a logical fallacy in this case. It's part of the overall storyline.

Because he is sensing that he isn't the benevolent politician that he had been once, but he doesn't know for what reason or why until Anakin tells him.

Yoda sensed it in Dooku because he just used it. He can pin point the evil in him because of it. Luke isn't using the Force at Endor until he's on the sanctuary moon. Due to this and the changing balance, Palpatine cannot sense him. Vader can because they're family and they've been around each other.

Obi-wan isn't using the Force when Vader is over Tatooine. When Obi-wan shows up on the Death Star, Vader can sense it, but not where he is. And when they do cross paths, he says that his strength in the Force is weaker now than it was before. This is a side effect of the Force going out of balance. Obi-wan even acknowledges that he's getting too old to be doing this.

The Force is strong with Luke because he is the son of Anakin Skywalker, himself strong in the Force once. Anakin said that Palpatine was very powerful, but he never felt the Force in him and never saw what he could do.

He has grown strong because he managed to fight Vader and didn't turn at Bespin. Not that he has felt him growing stronger.

The fact that he cannot sense him is because the Force's balance is righting itself and he cannot sense Luke, just like the Jedi couldn't sense him once.

Actually, it doesn't. Having compassion means having unconditional love. They don't hate them, but that doesn't mean that when they kill them, they do not feel it. That's the point in the Jedi Code and what Lucas is saying. Obi-wan didn't believe in Vader's redemption, but he did not hate him. He feels compassion for the man that he was.

He can sense his thoughts, which is different from feelings.

That's not changing the argument. That's pointing out that by burying their feelings deep down, any thoughts that can be gleaned will not be used against them. Palpatine knows that Luke is good, but he cannot sense his presence at Endor. He can sense his thoughts about his friends which is why he goads him into losing control. Vader can sense it as well and the harder Luke tried to hide, the more that Vader picked up on it and pried it out of him.

His powers are weakening due to the balance to the Force being righted.

It is because Vader is not entirely evil now, whereas Palpatine still is.

In recognizing that Anakin was different and needed to be trained right out, the Jedi would look at themselves differently and see that they needed to adapt and change again. They didn't because they had doubts about him at first and when they did accept him, they only let Obi-wan deal with him, rather than Yoda taking a hand in it. They just carried on as if nothing was different.

You know I did.

Lucas said that was the case.

My point is that it doesn't matter what biology says, Anakin's existence is because of the Force and the Midichlorians. They started the cell division and Anakin was the end result, regardless of what conventional biology says.

Okay, I'll revise. It saw a point where Anakin restores balance and he had a choice to do it in Palpatine's office and didn't. He had a choice in the throne room and did it.

They made a plan with what was the only thing they had to go on. They knew it be incredibly difficult and might not succeed. They made a calculation based on it and went from there. There was no other way to destroy it but that.

And wouldn't work without a Jedi. Otherwise, Luke is pointless in this part of the film.

That's not changing the argument.

It has to do with Anakin's birth because manipulating Midichlorians is the only way it can happen. Palpatine tells Anakin this because they both know that Midichlorians created him. Palpatine tells him a story about a Sith Lord who did that which could create life and could cheat death. Since Anakin is proof of the former, he believes that the latter must be true.

I never said that. I said that in Luke's training in the Jedi Arts, Yoda would have told him about Midichlorians. It is the same way that the Jedi and the Sith know about them, during their training. I never said that they need to know about them in order to use the Force. I said they would know about them in order to understand the Force.

You know as well as I do that it wasn't said on screen. You also know that I said way back, that Yoda would have told Luke during their time together. Just because we didn't see all of Luke's tenure on Dagobah, doesn't mean that they didn't talk about stuff like this.[/QUOTE]

 

This is sort of what I'm getting at when I talk about a 'sense of scale.' A mystical sense of there being more to the universe than we know, which we can sort of glimpse a small piece of - that seems to me to be a very familiar feeling. Once that's turned around such that that generalized, very non-anthropomorphized force Force is turned into something with a will, and then also it is given defined limitations on its ability to see the future or affect events, and its overall/long-term health can now be destabilized by the actions of mortals - a very few mortals, to boot... all of that starts putting the mystical into boxes, reducing the spiritual to the religious (if you will). Mashing the wider universe outside into explicitly human-related frames of reference.

I usually agree with like 90% of what you post, but on this score... what you just described sounds rather like reality. I personally don't have so much of a problem with that. All the feelings, motivations, etc, are all real, because even if the future is set, individual people don't have knowledge of how things will go. Even in Star Wars, it's very vague, and those who have too much confidence in their clairvoyance fail (Vader, the Emperor).

However, having the Force see the future and directly intervene - in the manner shown in the films - causes other, related problems for the story. If the Force created Anakin because it saw that he existed in the future, then he indeed 'made the decisions.' But:

-The Force now has to create him because it knows he is created. Circular motivations, while logically consistent, aren't always very fulfilling in a story.

-Anakin apparently had to be created by fiat... why? How did the Force know it had to act directly? How did it know he didn't already exist, or wouldn't shortly? Its ability to see the future must be very limited, much like a Force-user. It also apparently can't (or won't) interfere in real life except to create a male fetus from scratch. So the Force's scope here seems to be getting closer to par with ancient titans or Superman than an all-seeing, all-suffusing mystical energy.

-Is parthenogenesis-by-Force something that is common in the Star Wars galaxy? If it isn't, then the idea that:

(1) Anakin just popped into existence (he must have, in order to exist in the first place so the Force would be able to see him in step 2, below)
(2) the Force saw what he would do in the future
(3) the Force created him in the past so that he could fulfill that destiny

... seems rather, dare I say, unrealistic. I know, this is Star Wars, home of 'sound in space,' 'visible laser blasts,' etc. And it may well be that very unusual things happen by chance, both in real life and in Star Wars. It just seems like a very strange notion to hang the premise of one's entire narrative on, especially when the preceding chapters had no hint of the narrative's scale relating to that at all.

Now that I think about it, an exploration of 'fate' as being like in Slaughterhouse-5, or Watchmen, could be interesting. And/or, the notion of Anakin as a virtual particle/antiparticle pair (Anakin/Vader) could have maybe been an off-the-wall metaphor, perhaps informing the story in some way. But none of that seems to have been included. Instead, the prequels are essentially the backstory as described by the characters in the OT, with a few extra mythological references thrown in for flavor. ...?