Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Garrett Atkins, May 23, 2013.
Just like animals, amirite?
Wrong actually. I love these assumptions.
So, for you, it's...
Humans > Animals > Clones ?
For me, it's...
Clones = Humans = Animals
I can't wait til Episode 7 comes out and there is something fresh to talk about, so these strange conversations don't populate these threads.
Clones = potted plants
Clones = Animals = I SLAUGHTERED THEM
Heh-heh, how colorful.
Anyway, I don't want to curb stomp the current topic having to do with clones, humans, animals and greater than, less than or equal to signs and so I'll get right to it. OT or PT? For me there is only OT and PT. You know those toy combo packs with a young Obi-Wan (Ewan) paired with Ben (Alec)? That's my perspective in a nutshell. I'm a OPT person. I'm all for the fusion of both worlds, so to speak.
Grieving won't change things, especially since she knows that she's going to be executed soon as her deception has been discovered. Besides, how do you know what she is thinking as she is lying? Because she isn't crying?
It did, she just isn't letting it get to her. Otherwise, she becomes a liability to everyone. They're looking to her and she's carrying the weight of the universe on her shoulders right now.
This assumes people didn't relate to her. You're the only one with this issue, so far.
Anakin and Obi-wan were failing to save their loved ones. Leia didn't fail because she had lied to Tarkin. She just underestimated Tarkin's ruthlessness. But rather than breaking down, she's chosen to fight.
No, only Han is. Leia is never tortured. You do know that there is emotional pain. Such as seeing someone that she loves be tortured and then frozen in Carbonite.
No, there was more than that. Luke's hatred of Vader stemmed from killing Anakin, killing Obi-wan, killing Biggs, destroying Alderaan and what he's done to Han and Leia. When Vader said that he was Luke's father, his reaction was disbelief that this was true because he was ignoring what his feelings were telling him. That he had been fighting and wanting to kill his father. He was doubting himself because he knew he wasn't ready for this fight and that he wasn't fully trained. And he couldn't believe that Obi-wan and Yoda had kept that from him.
She's not stupid. Luke said that the Force runs strong in his family. He had it, his father has it and his sister has it. She knew, but she was in a much more stable frame of mind to comprehend it than Luke was. Her emotions was from all of this.
I'm going to curb stomp a clone to death because they're not a real person.
Just to clarify, darth-sinister, I'm not saying that other people can't relate to Leia. It's fine and perfectly legitimate if they do. I have no problem with it. I was just replying to an earlier post saying that nobody could relate to the PT characters. I responded that I have no trouble relating to the PT characters and then described my problems relating to Leia as a counterpoint. If you relate to her, that's great -- I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I don't share your feelings on the matter.
Of course she knows that, but grief is an emotion -- it's not rational and controllable. Anyone who loses a loved one knows that grieving won't change anything. That doesn't prevent us from doing so anyway because the pain we feel is real and difficult to contain. That Leia knows she is going to be executed soon doesn't really mitigate that for me because it doesn't remove the pain you experience. As to how I know what she's thinking -- I don't. But I'm saying I couldn't react the way she does -- there's no tear tracks going down her cheeks, her eyes aren't red and puffy, she doesn't come across as angry or revenge-bound. To me, anyway. Her initial reaction to Luke -- to tease him -- and her pose don't convey any depth of emotion I can relate to.
This doesn't (to me) look like someone who has recently lost her home planet.
As an example, I can relate more to Spock's reaction in Star Trek 2009 when his planet is destroyed and he loses his mother. And he's an alien who is also part of a military-like organization.
I'm sorry. I just don't agree. Leia isn't going into battle and she doesn't give out orders during the battle. I agree that her being in hysterics would be a problem, but I don't think giving her a more somber disposition would have hurt morale. This is a serious situation, but I feel as though Alderaan's destruction is just swept under the rug.
Okay, but I'm talking about my feelings on the matter. Is that a problem? I'm not saying no one can relate to her. I'm saying that I don't -- and trying to lay out the reasons for why that is.
Again, though, I'm not asking her to break down into hysterics. I'm asking for a reaction from her. Padmé has a reaction to her people's fate without breaking down -- she still goes after them and fights. And I can give you another example of a Leia moment I like -- Leia looks terribly distraught as Han is lowered into carbonite. The look she gives to Vader and how she clings to Chewbacca really sells it that she is hurt by what she is experiencing and she's still able to fight. With Alderaan (and other events too, like her torture) though, there's no such reaction. She just seems completely unaffected to me. There's nothing there for me to relate to. I've never cared (emotionally) too much about Alderaan's destruction because no one in the film seems to care that much or ever bring it up. I cared about it intellectually, of course, since it represented the evil of the Empire, but I was more emotionally involved in Needa's death. In contrast, the destruction of the Jedi in ROTS is something I do care about because not only does the film make a major deal of this but it shows how much pain this causes people like Obi-Wan and Yoda as they look over the corpses of their lost loved ones.
Um…sure she is. Chewbacca and Han are both shown being tortured and given that Vader's tortured Leia before in ANH, there's no reason to think that when Luke says he sense her pain that she's not being tortured. And if it was just emotional pain, Luke would have no concern for Leia dying. But he specifically tells Yoda that they're in pain and asks him if they will die.
Ummm….how would Luke know that Anakin killed Biggs? Also, Luke never even met Anakin. One would think that Leia, who has been tortured by the man, been held down by him as her planet was destroyed, had her boyfriend tortured and entombed by him -- would have at least equal (if not greater) hatred of Vader. I'm not saying that Leia has to react as powerfully as Luke -- she's a different character after all. But for her to never really shown to be the least bit disturbed by the revelation is something I can't relate to in the slightest.
If I were tortured by Hitler, had my home nuked by Hitler, had my significant other tortured and incarcerated by Hitler and then found out I was Hitler's child, I might not scream "No!" but I certainly wouldn't shrug it off. Which is what Leia seems to do. Sure, she has other things to focus on -- such as worrying about Luke. But it bothers me that her reaction to Vader being her father is never really explored. As far as I can tell, she doesn't care.
See, you keep saying that Leia was able to separate her emotions from all this. And that's really why I can't relate to her at all. She's just too emotionally controlled -- much more so than even Yoda or Obi-Wan, who have trained themselves to control their emotions their whole lives (unlike Leia). It's one thing to be able to hold it together and get the job done. It's quite another thing to divorce yourself so completely from your emotions that you don't even seem to feel them. Heck, I've been watching the original Star Trek series and one of the great things about it is that even though they show Spock as being in control of his emotions (almost always) you can still tell when things hurt him.
With Leia I can't tell when things are hurting her. And thus I can't relate to her.
And you know this . . . how?
Leia is emotionally controlled? Is this supposed to be an excuse for her lack of grief over Alderaan? Because I'm not buying it. Her anger and impatience during the Death Star rescue and her reaction to Han's situation in the last act of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK seems to contradict this little theory.
Repressing grief, causes other emotions to rise to the surface in this case, maybe?
That's on Lucas for feeling that she shouldn't be crying.
Yeah, but Spock and Sarek kept their emotions in check and the latter had to be goaded into losing it.
Leia did go into battle. She takes Luke's blaster and shoots it twice in the film. Once in the cell bay and again in the chasm crossfire. And she did give orders. She tells Han to get into the garbage chute and bosses Han and Chewie around.
But Alderaan's destruction was brought up on Yavin 4.
You're about the only person that cared about Needa.
1. Again, Leia isn't tortured. There's nothing in the film or script that points to that. Not even in the EU.
2. Luke asking if they will die doesn't mean that she was tortured. It means that whatever he saw, he believes will lead to their death. Just like Anakin concluded that Padme died as a result of childbirth and not because he decided to choke a bitch. Luke and Anakin didn't know what all happened, just that something happened that caused emotional distress and they drew a conclusion based off of that.
Because Vader shot Biggs while the latter was trying to provide cover for Luke. Biggs was Red 2. Wedge was Red 3. Ergo, his best friend from his childhood was dead because of Vader.
Luke had an emotional connection to his father from the get go. It didn't matter that he never met him directly until Bespin, or earlier in the EU. What mattered was that there was a deep instinct within him, a flicker of the Force, that gave Luke the feelings for a man that he didn't know. Just as he didn't have any memory of Padme, while Leia had. Leia didn't hate Vader in the same way that Luke did.
There's a difference between being annoyed by fools that couldn't rescue themselves, much less her and becoming a sobbing mess over her home planet being destroyed. Likewise in TESB, she doesn't become a blubbering mess because of Han being frozen.
Of course. Though she doesn't have to be crying necessarily -- there's other reactions that would make sense as well, such as suppressed rage.
Yep, but again, Spock is part-Vulcan and has spent over twenty years learning to control his emotions. Leia is fully human and doesn't keep her emotions in check to the same degree as he does -- she smiles, laughs, cries in other situations. So it felt off to me and unrelatable.
Then, of course, in the new movie, as soon as Kirk dies, Spock loses it and begins screaming before hunting down Khan and beating the ever-loving crap out of him.
Sorry, I wasn't clear -- I meant during the battle of Yavin. She doesn't participate in any of the fighting.
Yeah, it was brought up so Leia could dismiss it. I have a hard time relating to that.
Good to know.
I came to the conclusion that "They're in pain…will they die" meant that Leia was being tortured. I see no reason why Vader wouldn't torture her. He wants to draw Luke out of hiding. Hurting his friends is a means to that end. We see both Han and Chewie being tortured and given Luke's statements, I think it's pretty logical that Leia would have been as well. I think my interpretation is just as legitimate as yours.
We as the audience know that. How would Luke? It's not like Vader's fighter is outfitted with a nameplate. He may have simply concluded that it was a high-ranking or elite Imperial.
Of course it matters that Luke never met Anakin. You can't love someone you've never met. You can idealize them, but there's no way you will ever convince me that Luke feels more pain over discovering his father is Darth Vader than Leia would feel for having her family die when Alderaan is destroyed or watching the man she loves (Han) be tortured and entombed by Vader. That's nonsensical. And Vader played a huge part in inducing her pain.
What do you want to her say? "Let's get those bastards!" "It's payback time!"
Han and Chewie were responsible for shooting the TIE Fighter that was Vader's wing man, which caused him to spin out of control. That was probably more of payback against them, than anything. Actually, we don't know if the sonics used on Chewie were Vader's orders or not. We know that Han's was, as he was standing there. Why not show or imply it in the film that she was tortured? We see Chewie flipping out and Han being zapped. Why didn't we see this with Leia? It's not in the script. It isn't in the novelization. Han says that they didn't ask him any questions, but Leia doesn't, "Me too".
Given that Vader started pursuing him not long afterwards, and no Imperial ships were seen taking off, it isn't hard to figure out that was Vader in the TIE Fighter that fired on him, Wedge and Biggs.
Vader didn't do anything with the Death Star, other than stand there and hold her by the shoulders. Tarkin did that and he got blown to atoms. And yes, Luke did love his father without meeting him, prior to Bespin and Endor. Love isn't confined to physical presence. Love is born out of strong feelings one has towards another. Many children have grown up not knowing a family member, like a parent or a sibling, yet has feelings of love towards that person regardless.
I'm kind of shocked that any 38% of people prefer the prequels over the originals. There are so many objectively bad choices in the PT that I just don't really get it. Whenever I see someone that says they prefer the PTs I almost instantly roll my eyes, and I can't even help it. I just assume they were people who saw those films first and therefore have this nostalgic connection to them. That is how unbelievable it is to me that someone can prefer a film with characters that aren't actually characters at all to films with some of the most intricate, and interesting characters in film history.
I -- unlike many -- do acknowledge there are flaws with the OT (especially Jedi) that shouldn't be ignored. But, they aren't glaring, immersion breaking narrative flaws like in the PT.
Some people grew up with the PT. That can make all the difference. I'm not one of these people, but I get it.
There are, however, the lines:
The door opened once again, and Princess Leia was thrown into the cell by the stormtroopers. She was still dressed in her elegant cloak but, like Han, she looked tired and dishevelled.
When the stormtroopers left and the door slid behind them, Chewbacca helped Leia over to Han. The two gazed at one another with great emotion, then reached out and tightly embraced. After a moment they kissed tenderly.
While Han still held her, Leia weakly asked him, "Why are they doing this? I can't understand what they're up to."
Leia seems to still blame Vader though, in the Return of the Jedi Storybook:
Luke moved closer to her. He said gently and calmly. "I want you to know this because ... I might not come back. And you're the only one I can trust. Darth Vader is my father."
"Your father?" Leia felt herself grow pale. She pulled away from him. "No, I can't believe that. It couldn't be true. Luke was a brave, honorable Jedi Knight. He could not be the son of the inhuman monster who had destroyed her world.
In the former, that's completely changed by the final film. In the latter, that's obviously not accurate given that Tarkin gave the order. The ANH script claims that it is Vader's voice on the intercom, but it doesn't sound like him.
Sure- Tarkin gave the order. But Vader is the Emperor's right hand man- I could see Leia pinning the blame on him, in her head, once Tarkin is dead.
Nothing so cheesy. But Leia could have said something along the lines of Alderaan deserving justice or how she will make sure the Empire can never inflict such horrors on any other planet. For me, though, it's not so much what she says as how she says it. She comes across as too unperturbed and altogether unaffected for me to relate to.
Do you remember how Luke, after learning the truth about his father, closed his eyes as if in pain and asked "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" I want a moment like that for Leia -- she doesn't even have to say anything, just give us a moment where she looks as though she's wrung out and trying to hold it together.
I don't know what you're talking about. Vader didn't torture Han, Chewie and Leia because of what happened in ANH -- he tortured them to draw Luke out of hiding. Obi-Wan says so -- that it is Luke and his abilities that the Emperor wants and that is why his friends are made to suffer. Honestly, I think the reason we didn't see Leia being tortured is because she's a woman. That's just my feelings on the subject and I have no proof to back it up, but I get the feeling that there was a concern that the audience would be put off by seeing Leia's torture. Even in ANH, they never showed this although they do show Han and Chewie (and we hear them scream).
Plus, when Leia comes in, she seems well aware of what has happened to Han, asking him "Why are they doing this?" She obviously knows what happened to Han because the same thing happened to her. Plus, the script describes her looking, like Han, worse for wear.
I still don't see how Luke would know it's Vader. There's thousands of people on the Death Star (it's the size of a moon, so there might even be hundreds of thousands or millions) and Luke doesn't see the start of the pursuit. He's busy in the attack -- as far as he knows, three Imperial ships fly out of the Death Star and start attacking the Rebels, but there's no way to know it's Vader. It could be any one of the stormtroopers or an elite commando.
Vader tortured Leia on the Death Star and then helped play a part in the destruction of Leia' planet. He might not have given the order, but he most certainly played along and intimidated her during the proceedings. That alone is far worse than anything he ever does to Luke.
And, no, I'm sorry but you can't compare Leia's loss of loved ones on Alderaan to Luke's idealization of a man he never even met. It's not even in the same ballpark. In the real world, there's a man who found out his father is actually Charles Manson. He was upset, but it in no way correlates to having Charles Manson help nuke his hometown.
You may love the idea of someone, but unless you've met them, you can't love the person. Otherwise, people who obsessively follow celebrity lives and watch interviews also love that person. It's an absurd concept.
What you perceive as bad choices in the PT are your opinion, but they are in no way objective.
As to "characters that aren't actually characters," I have always found Obi-Wan, Padmé, and Anakin to (far and away) be better characters than Han and Leia. Luke is a different story, however.
Likewise, I've always found more "glaring, immersion breaking narrative flaws" in the OT than the PT. But, at the end of the day, I'm a fan of all six films (although I do prefer the PT) so I focus on the positives rather than the negatives. Luke's story is the big reason I love the OT as much as I do.
I have absolutely no idea how this conversation got started, where it's going, or even why it's happening. :/
Here's my weird thing:
As far as story, characters, and themes go, I find the PT is way, WAY more interesting and dynamic than the OT by it's very nature.
As far as actual execution, artistic skill, and movie going experience go, the OT is way, WAY superior to the PT.
I think part of what went against the PT was that because the story, characters, and themes were so much more complex and dynamic, it required a writer and director of far superior skill than what the OT required. Lucas had been so out of practice in both of those areas that he actually went the other way in terms of quality in these fields.
I'm hoping the ST will be top notch in story, characters and themes as well as execution, artistic skill and movie going experience. But if anything need be sacrificed, please don't let it be the quality of the movie going experience. The whole point of movies is to commune with your fellow humans, not to appreciate them at home by oneself.
And I roll my eyes at those who roll eyes at me - and for the record, I was in college when ANH came out, so I'm not a PT-childhood'er or whatever you call them.
I find the OT characters to be somewhat stock characters - the young kid coming of age, the smuggler, the princess (but ok, one who got a lot of flak at the time for not being what a princess "is supposed to be" a/k/a subsidiary to the men) - key word here is "somewhat." Luke had an actual journey, Leia wasn't a Disney princess, and Han actually invested the "amoral man with a buried heart of gold" with some humor.
The PT: ohmigosh, other than the "poor, tortured, misunderstood, etc." Anakin which made me dislike hit, rather than empathize with him, I found most of the characters complex and rich IF you were willing to look for and accept the subtext. Could it have been better? Heck, yes, if it had been a drama rather than space opera - less pod racing, hijinks on Geonosis, etc.
The OT characters are satisfying like popcorn and hot chocolate on a wet, cold day while the PT is far more engaging. One, you go along for the ride and what a thrilling ride it is; the other, it's immersive.